Ski Bum

Hey Dave, have you read Cippola's somewhat sarcastic yet prescient piece The Basic Laws of Human Stupidity? Given your knowledge of history, I think you would really appreciate Cippola's take, which is a game theory economic analysis with tons of snark. I think you would really enjoy it.

Git 'em while they're young!

Diz, the passion comes about when we're repeatedly faced with willful, even prideful ignorance, on a matter that is really not up for debate. It's 2015. Ignorance is a choice.

The very first post is a slanted partisan political view, with a link to a slanted partisan source. The linked article was in response to recent reports from reputable climate scientists that 2014 was the hottest on record. Christopher Booker, the author of the linked article, has a long track record of promoting ideas that run counter to the scientific consensus. He's a partisan hack, and his article is just pandering to the misinformed. Is that the sort of open discussion you want to promote? As I said, the whole thread is an ad hominem, inherently political, and not really appropriate in an audio forum.

This entire thread (a few posts excepted) is a giant ad hominem attack against climate science. The arguments are reminiscent of the ones put forth by stupid parents who refuse to vaccinate their children. Since I personally know some NOAA scientists, I'll take their word for it over anything put forth so far in this thread. This is a blatantly partisan political thread and should be closed. Take it to Fox News sites, this BS is beneath the Klipsch forum standards (and against forum policy if I'm not mistaken).

Maybe because Pekin is a ghost town? Whoever gets them may want to swing up to E. Peoria for a visit to Decware while they're in the neighborhood. Steve will feed you beer and music, and has lots of tube toys that would be great with those KLFs.

KL 650 THX (but you'll need a sub).

To the first part, that would indicate less clipping, somewhere in the chain, most likely the amp (assuming you followed Mark's suggestion on pre and amp gain settings, you're simply driving the amp less hard). If the grain/distortion is in the source, you'll hear it at all volume levels.

It does. Assuming the amp gain is not so low as to make the pre-amp output clip (addressed in step 6), that method seems about perfect. Higher sensitivity actually gives you more latitude with power, as you simply need less of it. This is one of the reasons us Klipsch folks play with such toys, simply because we can. On the other side, such speakers reveal every flaw they're fed, which is why this gain staging stuff is so critical. GIGO. As for the complicated passages causing the amp to clip, not sure, but my guess is that the amp is clipping in any event, and the complex music exposes the interaction of the clipping distortion products. (Chris explains this one so much better than I do, where is that guy?) It could simply be that the complex music demands more power than the amp can deliver, pushing it further into the obnoxious end of clipping. Either way, you don't want ss to clip, ever, so the "too much is just enough" maxim seems to apply. But that's easy. With low power tubes it's certainly not about power, at least not primarily, and particularly if you use it as a processor for pleasant effect. Keep expectations realistic as to what they can do in the dynamics and spl department.

Not intended in any way to be derogatory, so please don't take it that way. It was simply based on real life speaker sensitivities, listening distances, that's all, not a criticism or derogatory. I'm in too good a mood to fight with you today, so let's play nice, ok?

Loved the old quote, still on the money. Regarding this part, I would add that these load dependent freq response variations are forms of linear distortion, and typically on the order of a db or two even for high output impedance SETs paired with widely varying impedance speakers. Sure, it's audible, wide band changes generally are that way, but it's not objectionable non-linear distortion, and could even be compensated via eq upstream.

Using the 3/4 watt SE amp? If so, you could be hearing modulation of that copious but low order harmonic distortion. Chris has explained this in numerous posts, and it is one of the weak points of flea watt single ended amps. I'm not quite sure myself, as I've listened to the most demanding and complex works in my collection via set amps and find the main limit is the overall power, not any congestion within it's power limits.

I know we bicker about wires, but on this I think we are in full agreement on the essence, if not the semantics, of flea watt single ended amps. Some of the most fun audio toys I've played with. More fun than the Aphex and BBE Sonic Maximizer, even. It seems to me that any flea power amp is going to clip, just based on speaker sensitivity, listening levels, distance to speakers, etc, but it's the nature of the clipping that separates these little beasts from sand amps and more powerful amps that avoid clipping. As a SET amp clips, a low order, monotonic THD pattern results. If pushed too far, higher order harmonics are excited and good sound goes out the window. But before that, a slightly clipped SET amp acts almost like an ideal compressor: the amp's electrical output plateaus, but the increasing harmonic content within that envelope is perceived as increased loudness, at least to the point of being grossly overdriven. I think you would agree that there are different degrees to which amps can be overdriven before sounding objectionable. The high, odd order of clipped ss amps is intolerable at levels as low as 1%. PP tube amps cancel even harmonics in their output stage, so their profile is different than SET, but tolerated in higher amounts than that of SS. SETs have a lot of wiggle room, where 5% or more THD often slips right by the ear unrecognized as obvious distortion. Now, if the user recognizes audible differences as such is another story, but that's what I was getting at.

That's not how it works; see Mark's explanation. Another thing to consider about amplifier ratings, to mean much of anything they must have qualifiers (bandwidth, distortion levels, and into which loads). Some manufacturers will rate power using 1khz @ 1% THD into unspecifiied loads, where others will specify rms power into specific loads and across the entire audible band. (Let's keep it in the realm of clean, linear amps; no distortion/clipping allowed, for the sake of this discussion.) Whichever method they choose to rate power by, the amps will be able to deliver more power than that, dependent on the limits of the hardware, albeit with much higher (and unlistenable) amounts of distortion. This is why it's imperative to be aware of one's power needs, and choose an amp capable of delivering what is required without clipping. Even using speakers like Klipsch, the leading edge transients of notes can demand quite a bit of power. Even your hypothetical 40 watt amp may be clipping transient peaks. Shifting gears into the low power realm, where I think running ampsslightly overdriven (but not obnoxiously so) is kind of the whole point, and distortion profiles (low order) are more tolerated/preferred/disregarded, I think that pushing the 3/4 watt amp into heavy clipping will be ear-shredding simply due to excessive distortion. SETs in full clip are harsh sounding. The same amount of clean power would probably not sound as harsh (but the flea watter would probably be much more stimulating to listen to when not pushed so hard). If you can reduce the amp's input sensitivity as Mark suggested, you'll get more useful range from the volume knob (and better s/n on the input signal, woo hoo!)

I made no comment on your character, just observations of your own posts. You can't form a rational argument that would pass muster on the high school debate team, it's there for all to see, no judgement required. And you have a woeful misunderstanding of medicine, coming from one in the field. If you want a dialog, how about avoiding the ad hominems, straw men, and other tactics? So far you've done it to anyone who questions your methods.

Mark, your inability to construct a sound argument is only surpassed by your misunderstanding of medicine. Good luck with the magic thinking, as it pertains to your health and your stereo system.

I'm not a moderator, and have no power to keep others from posting their points of view. Mark claimed I make my decisions just as he does, after I provided two specific examples of how I do not, and as he did towards Don, he's stooped to personal insults. So no, he was not expressing his point of view, he was acting like a troll. I'm done feeding him.

Good grief, now I know you're just trolling for attention. Please take your jihad against ABX to someone who gives a ****.

I'm not suggesting anything of the sort (that all buying decisions should be based on ABX). That's a conclusion you have drawn and attributed to me, erroneously, in constructing some sort of straw man to beat around in furtherance of the placebophile method, which you seem quite passionate to promote. One doesn't have to perform an ABX test to recognize the wire hucksterism for what it is, just as they don't have to test homoepathic remedies for efficacy (they're just water). Acceptance of snake oil of any sort requires ignorance and gullibility, willful or not. As for what specifically has been influenced by testing, as I mentioned, some for source material most recently. Years ago did single blind but carefully level matched amp test, and still have the modestly priced amp that was indistinguishable from the expensive one.

Where's the self deception? You're unwilling to even consider conflicting evidence, even from your own senses, since you deny bias controlled testing. That's willful denial, and very much an I-know-more-than-you-just-trust-me kind of BS you just accused Don of doing. Most recent ABX was done using foobar on hi-res formats. You may want to try that out before diving into that particular rabbit hole and wasting money chasing unicorns. It's all in the production, not the bits, and some of the hi rez format recordings feature modern day, heavy handed production. Boo, hiss!

Actually believing that spending $90 for a $5 bottle of wine is worth it for the enhanced 'experience'.

I think I answered this already. Your experiences are predicated on self deception, mine are not. Funny that you advocate so strongly for it, yet admit that you don't use fancy wire yourself. You don't exactly walk the walk. I think you're just trolling for attention now.

My enjoyment is not based on willful self deception, so using plain ol' standard 12 awg wires doesn't limit it at all. I listen to music, not wires.

Did you read the whole article, Mark? It suggested doing something to test one's perceptions for authenticity, not simply trusting them. Of course that conflicts with your personal jihad against bias controlled listening tests, so not the sort of detail from the article you would be inclined to take note of or give credence to. Going with the truthiness, gut feeling, raw experience approach as you advocate may result in you finding the $5 wine tastes better because it's labeled at $90, to the point that you pay that much for illusory differences. Does actually paying for the delusion make it any less of a delusion? Some would consider that approach kind of stupid, when with a little less self deception the same experience could be had for $5.

See, there is one mod madman I forgot to mention, our own Moray James. Excellent perspective, sir, particularly that last part.