fire pinch

Yep Jstanton, I have the Tumult woofer BUT it will be in a sealed box. Depending of your room size, I expect you to win with your vented Tumult in MAX SPL test What is your room size? We might get close too, because I dont have a 1400W amp, but a beasty 2400W amp I think that im gonna be able to push my Tumult at its extreme limit. I wish I'd have a vented enclosure but this will maybe come next year. For now, I wanted to try first a sealed box, just to see how will be the sound quality which is "supposed to be better" than vented box, tighter group delays. For the FR curve test (bass as flat as possible), this wont be fair because I dont have any EQ Still, I appreciate a lot the results with my Tempest, I get +/- 2 dB from 16Hz and up. I really LOVE my room, even if it is small sized Oh and by the way, I just wanted to add that im now working on the braces. I almost finished. I have to do some work on them tonight and after that, I'll just have to do the "glue process", sealing the joints, etc, etc and this wont be so long to do. I feel that Formica is a bit more affraid now I expect the sub to be half-finished (finished but without the finish on it) on Satursday this week or Sunday next week. Im gonna come back here during one of these days if its really the case.

Frankie, ---------------- I wrote: "Yeah, Im quite disapointed by the numbers too, its why I reacted. I hope that my sealed Tumult will not disapoint me. Knowing what my Tempest sub can do, I hope that<...>" ---------------- Then you wrote: "I wouldn't be worried if I were you. The main reason it didn't have better number is because it was sealed. What kind of enclosure are you using with the Tumult?" ---------------- You have your answer Ear, Well, knowing what my Tempest can do sealed (by blocking the 2 rear flared ports), I dont doubt of how the sealed Tumult will extend. I expect it to be flat to 25 Hz without any EQ. And if you remember my results about the Tempest in sealed mode(FR test), I got surprinsingly response down to even 16 Hz, where it was about -5dB down. I suppose that Im lucky to have a room like this! Im in a hurry to know what kind of power I will get with a 2400W amp: not so many Tumult users use an amp this powerfull for their subs.

Yeah, Im quite disapointed by the numbers too, its why I reacted. I hope that my sealed Tumult will not disapoint me. Knowing what my Tempest sub can do, I hope that the Tumult sealed unit will be more powerfull than my Tempest above 30-40 Hz. I saw somewhere in the forum where Kevin talked that there was some leaks behind the subwoofer, where the plate amp is located so hopefully, hopefully for me, another thing which can reduce the performance of his Tumult sub. Now Im affraid that my Tumult sub wont give the bass I expect! By the way, for sure sure, I will let you know about my Tumult when it will be finished, this is a promise And I will have my Tempest as a comparison

Wow! Really nice job Formica!! The most impressing part for me is the braces you have there! I dont know if Im gonna be able to catch up with you because I dont think the sub will be finished for this week-end! I got some problems with my router so I wasted quite a lot of time! Still, for now, the front baffle is done and it is sticked to the bottom pannel. Im gonna work on the braces tomarrow. The bracing part will not look as surprising as you, I dont have so much place to brace a smallish 18" cube enclosure with a woofer which take up a lot of space .

Frankie, Do you think that this Tumult sub (the DIY Cable one) is underpowered with a 1000W plate amp? Many tell us that you dont absolutely need the maximum possible power the Tumult can take in order to extract every bit of its performance, for example, 1600W for a certain design. They say that 1000W is plenty for having clean deep bass performance. But still, I beleive that some alignment needs really more than 1000-1200W in order to reach the full potential of the Tumult and Im the one who like to have the every most of what the woofer can do. What is your opinion on this? A sealed mid-Q alignment of 0.7 like the DIY Cable one could take twice the power of what its amp can deliver, so we would have a nice boost of 3 dB, which is somewhat well noticable. Still, I understand that its hard to find a 2000-2400W plate amp on the market for DIYer like us, I dont know of any. Plus, this is not every people who like to have a passive sub + an external amp. By the way, many people say that 2400W is too much for the Tumult, 1600W of power beeing the thermal limit of the woofer. Someone in the HTF forum use a 2400W amp like me for his Tumult subwoofer (vented with 4 Adire PR15s) and he have 0 problem for the moment and he pushed hard his subwoofer sometimes. He told me that the 1600W of power is rated for 1 hour continuous and 4800W, yes, 4800W is for one second Unless you fire the same 40 Hz test tone for more than 15 seconds, 20 times per day, I think that 2400W is really not dangerous at all for the Tumult.

---------------- On 11/23/2003 6:53:46 PM TVodhanel wrote: The latest is the big 15" unit...$1350 I think? Average SPL 25-62 Hz: 111.3 dB Maximum Output: 115.2 dB SPL @ 32 Hz 20hz...somthing like 93? for comparison...the 20-39cs($429 passive, $599 powered) SVS sent Nousaine almost 3 years ago now hit 109.5, 114.9 and 91 respectively...or it is about even to within 2dBs in all aspects. ---------------- The big 15 at $1350... I dont know of which sub you are talking about. Oh... I think I know which one! Is this the one which is powered by a 1000W amp + finished with a black piano finish? I dont remember how it is named thought... Well, IMHO, that sub is under-powered and moreover it is sealed. So we dont expect to have a lot more of performance than your Pci subs. Im sure than before reaching the true 10% THD limit of the Tumult woofer, they often cliped their amp. So most of the distortion came from the amp because it was pushed to its limit all the time during max SPL at 10% of THD tests. I suppose this for the moment. Most people use a 1000W amp with a Tumult, and its not enough if you want it to reach its limits IMHO according to many simulation softwares. But, to be even more sure, Im gonna do an experience once my Tumult will be done, so I will know if this is definitvely true that it can take more power than 1000W, 1500W, why not 2000W in a low to mid-Q sealed box. Here is how I will do the test: I have presently a QSC 2400W amp. Im gonna try to use only one channel of the amp into 4 ohms, so it will give 825W of power to the Tumult (voice coils wired in series). I'll fire some test tones, and I'll record the maximum output delivered. After, I will set the amp in bridged mono mode, so 2400W into 4 ohms. I'll do the same thing, measuring the maximum output without audible distortion and finaly, I'll see if the Tumult can definitively take more than 1000W of power. The woofer itself sure can take more power, but I talk about a Tumult in a low to mid-q sealed box (Q in the mid 0,60s). Do you know the approximative Q of the Tumult sub you are talking about? A higer Q alignment can even take more power... So in the end, I just wanted to point out that with double the amp power, see those performance numbers of the Tumult sub as 3dB higher except between 20 and 25 Hz, where the Tumult woofer will probably produce 10% or more of THD. OF course, the price of that sub would be higher and would be even worse for the performance/$$$. Your SVS subs are very damn good subwoofers for the price. When I go to audio stores, I wonder why they dont sell subwoofer like yours Its a pity we have to use internet in order to know that quite a lot of subwoofers can outclass subs found in commercial stores for less money !!! Oh... and if you answer my post, I have a question for you and well, other people if you can respond you are welcome Suppose that I measure 110 dB at 20 Hz in a 1500 cubic ft room. How much outpout will I have in a 7500 cubic ft room? I would like to know at the same time what formula you used. Suppose also that the 2 rooms have the same characteristics, I hope you understand. A 7500 cubic ft room with a sub placed in the middle of the room instead of in a corner + a different L X W ratio, + things which are placed differently wouldnt be fair. Thanx in advance for any answer, and that discussion is really cool. I just want to add that I wrote quite a lot of opinions about the Tumult with twice the power etc etc (what I thought true). So take it easy, when I think that something is wrong or must be explained or must be added, I show up my thoughts. I try to be as civilized as I can

Tom, Sure, we cant rely only on the Vd in order to know if a sub "A" will be better than a sub "B". I just wanted to point out how much air approximately that TC Sound 12" driver can move, just by curiousity For the distortion produced by each driver, we can see in the Adire website that the Tumult at 28mm of excursion one way produce 3% of THD (which is quite very low for today woofers IMHO) so we can say a "very" clean 4.2L of air displacement. But I just talk about air displacement, not subwoofer overall performance number. And now, what is the distortion produced by that TC sound woofer when it reach 42 mm of one way Xmax? Please, please, I dont want you to think that I bash this TC Sound woofer, this is the most awesome 12" woofer Ive seen "in action -] pictured"! A 18 incher with that much excursion would be GODLIKE!!!

---------------- On 11/18/2003 11:36:58 PM Manuel Delaflor wrote: WOW, what's the displacement of that thing???? ---------------- Hmm if we take the surface area of a Stryke AV-12 with 42,5mm of Xmax, this is about 4,23L of air displacment. If we take the surface area of the Adire Sadhara 12 with 42,5mm of Xmax, this is about 3,71L of air displacment. By looking at the cone of that woofer, it seems to have a bigger surface area than the Sadhara but more similar to the AV-12. So a good guess for its air displacement would be between 4 and 4,5L at the most. But 4,5L is a bit optimist IMHO. Phew!!! I was a bit affraid that it could displace more air than the Tumult! I was so impressed to see that woofer at first and Im still impressed again! But I dont know... I feel just less worried now because I know the Tumult woofer can displace more air!

Effectively, a 145 L box isnt a small box But you know, you have always tradeoffs when you design subwoofers. A moderate sized ported box and low tuning is needed with the DPL12 if you want flatter frequency response. Anyway and I agree with you on this, the most important, is to see what it does in the real life, the true results in your room. Good idea you have, building those two enclosures so you will know the difference I wish you very good luck and success for you project! Why not showing us some pictures when it will be finished

Oh Swissy, Im sorry. I really thought that you talked about only sealed enclosures. What would be the tuning point with your DPL12 vented enclosure? Anyway, I dont like too much a DPL12 in a vented enclosure. But of course this is my opinion and my taste. I would favor more the Shiva for vented enclosures. Lets see how you can model up a DPL12 vented enclosure. First, if you choose a tuning point higher than 16 Hz, you will begin to see a bump in the anechoic frequency response even if you change your enclosure volume. So you will most likely have to choose a tuning of 16 Hz and below, not very usefull for a vented box as the goal of a vented enclosure is to increase efficiency around its tuning point. Second, even if you choose a tuning of 15-16 Hz, the FR curve will looks like very flat down to 20 Hz anechoic, but what about in room? You will most likely have a curve which goes up a little as the frequencies go lower. Really, I dont know why the DPL12 would be "very good" for vented application. It can be ok, but compared to other kind of woofers, I dont think that choosing a vented enclosure for the DPL12 is really the best idea or your goal is really to have less distortion and more efficiency between 14 and 18 Hz. But at this frequency range, where do you hear that powerfull bass? Very agree with Frankie for what amp you should choose, I have nothing to add anymore.

Whoaaa! Lots of questions in that small text! "I was considering building the 54 Liter Shiva Box and was curious if the DPL12 would be a good fit?" If you talk about a sealed box, yes, the DPL12 will be even a BETTER fit compared to the Shiva, frequency curve wize. . "A better question would be, which driver would be best for HT applications." It depends of how you design the enclosures, and how much power you give to them. But I would favor more the Shiva for HT, for the punch factor. The Shiva is a more sensitive woofer and has a bit more of air displacement capability so it will be a bit more powerfull above 30 Hz compared to the DPL-12 in most situations. But I would choose more the DPL12 for music applications for its abitily to reach lower, flatter. "The DPL12 would seem to need a larger enclosure" For the same "Q" value, the DPL-12 will still be the winner in deep bass response. So Im not sure that the DPL12 needs a bigger enclosure. And for the same box volume, the DPL-12 and the Shiva have a similar Q value (you can even see this by looking at the Vas of both woofers). "<...>however, I was told if given the choice on the Rava, to take the DPL12 instead of the Shiva." Yes, if people told you to choose the DPL12 over the Shiva, its because they know that the DPL12 is more naturally suited for sealed box with its lower Fs. You can obtain easily flat response down to 20 Hz with that woofer in a sealed box in room. "From my calculations, I see the net box size needing to be 70 L(2.48 FT^3) for the DPL12" How do you base your calculations? I mean, how do you see that you need a 70L box, what are your criterias? "However, this box size is only 54 L (1.91 FT^3). Will the insulation bring the system Q down from 0.775 to .707?" Well, even if the Q value will be a bit different but CLOSE, the DPL-12 will extend lower its bass. "Or should I look at the 85L Vented DPL12 or Shiva design?" A 85L sealed DPL12... hmmm in my opinion, you should stay with the 54L enclosure if you have the choice between this one and the 85L. With a 85L, the DPL12 excursion goes more up drasticaly around 20 Hz then you will have to be more carefull on the amount of power given to the woofer so this would give you less dynamics. "Finally, if I build the 54 L box will I have a subwoofer equal to the Rava?" The FR curve of the DPL12 will be better in bass extension. Your F3 will normally be lower than Rava one in your room. However, the Rava will be certainly a bit more powerfull above 30 Hz if you wanted to know about the power. The difference in power depends too of how much power you wish to give to your DPL12... Do you look for power or frequency response when you say what is the best between blabla? *UPDATED*

Yep, because according to Bob Reimer from Creative Sound, the fab which produce the Shiva woofers got some problems. But you should see the Shivas coming back in December in stores. So the Dayton Titanic MKII can be a good purchase for what you want

"should hit the 120dB mark at 25Hz and possibly even at 20Hz or below." Wow! You are very optimistic there! Just imagine that I cant even touch that mythical 120 dB mark with my Tempest for the moment at the listening position and when the sub is on a piece of furniture. I think that I can hit or to get really really close of 120 dB at 20 Hz if I want. But I would have to place my listening position in the right corner of my room and to place the sub on the floor AND I CANT RIGHT NOW . I get 115 dB at 20 Hz, 116 dB at 25 Hz at the listening position, +1-2 dB I would get for the sub on the ground, +2-3dB in the room corner. You perhaps have a smaller room than me also. Now, with a Titanic MKII. You might get close to 120 dB, but Im really sure that you wont be able to have a CLEAN 120dB at 20-25Hz unless your room is really small, under 1500 cubic ft.

FirePincette... ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!! You guys makes me laugh so much each time you deform my nickname!!! Yes, and me looking forward to hear his AV15 This is a very sharp beautifull sexy looking woofer that AV-15

The Klipsch RW-12 too??? I think Ive read a post on this forum of a guy who is able to purchase one for around $400. But I didnt heard yet the Klipsch RW series of sub so I dont know too much if it would be better for HT than the Rava in that case. I think, just think that yes because the RW-12 is ported and even with a woofer which has less excursion or a bit less, it could have an advantage for the punch factor in HT. But I will let others to tell you if the RW-12 can be a good choice. Frankie can certainly tell you

Allright... but Frankie had a good idea for the Dayton Titanic MKII. I see there that you have powerfull amps If you dont want to touch the enclosure, the Datyon Titanic MKII would be very good too albeit that port noise can begin to be a problem with only a 4" port. I know that it is similary priced to the Tempest and that it performs a bit less, but if size is a concern, that Titanic woofer is better than the Shiva and can be real good for you.

Oreillon, What kind of power was given to the Sadhara? This is a passive subwoofer... Im really really impressed of the results you talk about! So this comparo tell us that the Sadhara is less powerfull than the SVS Ultra? But we dont know how much power the Sadhara had, so I have some ??? in my mind... "and still not cost many times more.The Sadhara goes for a grand and the Totem for 1.5 grand." Totem is 1.5 grand amp included or not? BUT, I say but... if you make yourself a clone of the Sadhara, in the end, you will pay less than 1 grand. About 700$CAN so about half of a grand in USD. But yeah, I admit it (in the case of not DIY), some commercial subs can be well near of Adire offerings! Im myself very impressed by this "micro" Totem! Thanx to feed us with some new findings

LOOOL!!! haha YEAH THIS IS a race, a WAR ! Omg I must run right now with my scissors, cutting all the 1/16 thick MDF pannels that I will stick together with some tape!!! No but we understand each other eh Formica! We just say this for fun, we are just kidding! Notice that he can win anytime if we want to... he just have to buy an amp at a nearby store and voilà!!! Ive bought mine today, just after I wrote a post, I was waiting for a call. The amp should arrive in about 2 weeks. During that delay time, I will begin slowly to make the enclosure, so the sub will be finished around November 20th... I hope

"I don't want to hurt the driver by overdriving it, so keeping the power levels lower should reduce the chance of noise and/or damage." True in general but not totaly true in all occasions IMHO. Just so you know, and maybe you already know, you might set the volume level of your sub at a certain point during a movie so you feel like it will never bottom out. But lets say that the volume setting was enough high to your ears so during an explosion, the signal requires that the amp sends a full load of extra power in your woofer. Whopps, the woofer bottomed out! If you say to me: when you know your movie, you know how to set the volume setting down so the woofer wont bottom out. -> good point Or... when you have enough of 95dB of power, you set the volume knob so you can hear an average of 95dB SO you dont bottom out the driver during a BING BANG movie part! I dont know by the way if in any movie, you can measure something like 95dB average to 120 dB!!!!

LOL! Yeah, true! Thanx for this Formica. His amp would be fine but I dont think that it has any subsonic filter. I was thinking at the same time of the guy who should call me in the next minutes for my QSC amp. I buy it today! Michael, Remember when I said in my post that you should buy a subsonic filter box? Then I forgot to tell you that IN that case, your amp would be very fine (because of powering each voice coil with 175W). But well... I thought this way: the subsonic filter box cost more (well I supposed the SVS one) than a Rythmic Audio amp WHICH HAS a subsonic filter build-in. So you could buy that amp and keeping your existing amp for another sub, a sealed one for example if your 175W amp doesnt have a subsonic filter.

Great! And this would be a very good idea to rework your porting for a Tempest but also your enclosure size. 5.35cu.ft. is quite a small volume for the Tempest woofer, it prefers to be in a bigger one. If size isnt a concern, for a bit more money (25$USD more for the Tempest), you would get about 70% more air displacement of the Tempest woofer compared of the Shiva woofer. Haha I guess that you will think more about it Oh damn Frankie!!! We were writing at the same time our posts! lol!

I just verified with WinISD Pro. My memory told me that I was right, if you really want your Tempest to reach its Xmax, considere more 300W of power. What you saw is that with 175W of power, the Tempest could reach 36-38mm of excursion around 15 Hz. I dont know if you have a subsonic filter setting in your amp, but if you dont have any, its true to feel safer with less power as your woofer will unload like sky rocket below the tuning point. I would recommand you to buy a subsonic filter, something like the SVS amp interface Box. You would set this at 18 Hz and you could use 300W of power for your Tempest and get the most of it IN CASE you want an amp suggestion, I suggest you the Rythmik Audio 350W plate amp. 350W? Even if you see that number, if you know very well your subwoofers, having more headroom is always a good thing! At 140$USD this is one of a very good amp for your money and it has a build-in subsonic filter.

"so I don't really think that the rising inductance should cause a problem." This is what I think too... and I find very curious that you can reach a peak of 36-38mm of excursion with only 175W of power. Normally, the Tempest need more than that, between 200 and 300W of power depending of what size of enclosure and tuning point you choose. But even if this is a 300L enclosure tuned to around 19-20Hz, by memory, you should need more than 175W of power to reach the Xmax of the Tempest... gotta verify this.

9,23m/sec for the air velocity? Excellent!!! You won't hear any port noise at all. as a rule of thumbs, considere 35m/sec as the maximum acceptable air velocity (10% of the air speed). But it is recommanded that you keep it down to half of this value so about 17m/sec. WinISD PRO by memory justly tell us to not surpass 17m/sec for the air velocity so a recommanded value. According to WinISD, the air velocity reach 35m/sec at 20 Hz for my subwoofer and this isnt a problem at all unless I run a 20 Hz test tone at full power But I dont hear ANY port noise in all kind of material, music or DVD's. A 175W amp you will use? Anyway, if you use all this power, you will most likely, theorically, bottom out your Tempest woofer. So I guess you will turn the volume down if you hear your woofer stressing. I dont think that this rising in impedance can be a problem for your amp. Is your amp rated for a 4 ohms load? I say this but... how will you wire your Tempest? You know, this is a dual voice coil woofer

tpg, I just updated my post in case you didnt look at it again