nyt

of course, pics are great =] if you need any help along the way feel free to post

I believe so. Get the plans, it's like $5 and confirm. It's recommended because it expands as it dries filling the gaps better. This is what holds the sub together. The screws and the nails are just to keep things together while the glue dries. You can get it at lowes or home depot. http://www.amazon.com/Henkel-828472-Polyurethane-Construction-Adhesive/dp/B0002YV81Y/ref=sr_1_2?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1284867340&sr=1-2

Yep. The cuts are pretty easy to setup. The cuts from the cut sheet are also sized larger that necessary, designed for cutting to fit. As you go through the plans, it tells you how to set each piece. Due to difference in wood thickness, you have to basically cut things to size. I had a lot of scrap wood since I made wide ones, and screwed up some cuts. It took 3-4 pieces of ply each. It's a fairly easy build, just requires lots of clamps, some squares, circular saw, and either a router or jigsaw. A nailer will also speed things up considerably, though it may be easier to set/glue pieces that are pre-drilled. Clamping a piece in place while it slides around in the glue can be a pain. I suggest picking up some nitrile or latex gloves. It sucks getting PL on your hands. Also, wear clothes you don't care about, since they will get ruined. If you escape without getting any PL on you, I'll be impressed. As for the instructions, they're pretty easy to follow, and clear. He'll send you a sketch-up of it too that you can examine if you have any questions.

Yes, they're large. The dayton 15" DVC was the recommended driver, but they stopped being produced. I believe the Dayton 15 reference HF models almost identically in the enclosure and is now the recommended driver. An impedance graph comes with the plans, but my plans are older and for the DVC driver. Average impedance is 5 ohms for that. If you end up building a THT, don't use the cut sheets that come with the plans. They're designed to let you build a 24" THT with two sheets of ply, but you end up having to join pieces of wood for the folds inside.

The system linearity is NOT improved by folds. Don't let the THD confuse you on this...it's merely demonstrating one of the shortcomings to THD measurement. If you want to see the system non-linearity, then bust out the IMD... I wasn't confusing them, just adding. You get fairly flat response with lower THD than direct radiators is all I was getting at. The response of the THT is in fact fairly linear, and moreso the wider you build one. I actually see where your confusion is coming from. I will clarify below. The Tuba 24 is NOT the same as a 24" wide THT, and has not been discussed once in this thread. It is a MUCH smaller sub designed for DJs. That is a measurement of a Titan 48, a completely different box than the one you named earlier, and also, not a THT I don't have any of the waterfalls I took anymore, but I can assure you, there is no extra ringing from a horn compared to the direct radiators I previously measured in the same positions. I'm not going to defend BFM's marketing, which he has recanted some of the ridiculous items such as extension to 2hz in room. However, when you post nonsense and throw up charts from two different subwoofers other than the one we're discussing, I will post corrections and real graphs. You're not helping anyone by posting nonsense. Here is a 24" THT outdoor ground plane measurement with THD plotted as well. The notch at 85hz is a measurement artifact as per the taker of these measurements, which he was getting with any sub he measured. He did these in his driveway and apparently was getting a reflection off of something. Funny, it looks just like the graph that BFM posts for the THT? (included below). It's trivial to EQ these flat, especially after room gain raises up the bottom end. I believe the in room response measurements I took and posted previously show this. THT outdoor ground plane and THD. from BFM's page: Just incase you're still confused, this is a Tuba 24 (16x24x24): This is a Titan 48 (48x24x24): This is a THT (32x36x36):

This is true, but a pair will just give more headroom, better dynamics, and help even out room modes.

The spuds on the floor may end up with a bunch of odd room nodes, but nearfield bass from them will be pretty nice since the idea is to put yourself right at the mouth. Seating further away from it obviously won't have as much of an effect. If you're doing the spuds, you won't have as much output as a pair of THTs, or maybe even a single? I'm not sure on the exact specs of the spuds, but the dts-10 with two 12's has a LOT more output potential, however those plans and drivers are not available. I'd go with a pair of THT's if they wont be in the way. They should fill the room nice in the back corners. If it was between the DTS-10 and the THT's, that would be a harder choice Also, the plans are easy to follow, readily available, and there are tons of pictures detailing the build all over the place, and multiple forums to get help should you run into any snags.

If you're going to do spuds on the floor, you want them to be nearfield. As for 3 THTs. I think you might be a bit insane. My room is open to 1200sqft and I can't find the limits of two of them without either making myself feel physically ill, or tearing down my house. If those are just different placement options, You'd want to corner load them. Instead of having the two THT's spaced on the right, you'd be better off stacking. One in each of those corners would be overkill. I will say, whichever route you go, whether spud type riseres or THT in the corners, you may end up on your wife shitlist real quick. With the THT's, they play loud enough to literally blur your vision. I've also felt the same effect with a pair of dts-10s. Either way you go, you're going to end up with killer bass. Where is your screen The notch on the bottom wall?? Without knowing its hard to say where to put stuff, but I'm assuming thats where it is.

I see you don't really have any experience with quarter wave folded horns and are just kind of making things up as you go along. These have been measured and tested and there are no crazy ripples that you speak of. In fact the folds act as 4th order filters, and you get far lower THD from a folded horn like this than you do with a direct radiator. You do however, get a slightly rising fr curve which is trivial to eq out. You refer to these as 'undersized horns'. Do you think the tapped horns are doing full wavelength? They're not, and it's not necessary to have a fullsize horn. That idea went the way of the dinosaurs quite some time ago. You also will get cleaner sound from a FLH than a TH, since the 1/4 waves in a TH will not always be aligned, causing more FR spikes. These are more exaggerated in models than they are in practice, but still exist. Also, according to his graphs, the vented enclosure is at 104db, and his is at 112db, 8db is hardly anything to scoff at. Also, to gain the 6db you speak of you will also need double the power. To gain 8db, you will need more than just another enclosure and double the power. You also mention transients, however what I think you're referring to is the delay incurred by the length of the horn path. This is typically ~15ms, and with any moden gear is trivial to align properly. Audyssey even does this automatically. Furthermore, I haven't run into any direct radiators that will hit over 130db at my listening position without absurd costs and insane amounts of power. The THT's accomplish this with ease, and still have headroom to spare. And as for real spl at the lower levels? I think 19hz extension at -3db at these levels can be considered "real spl at lower levels." MKTheater at the AVS forum replaced (8) 18" sealed sonotubes with thousands of watts of power with two dts-10s due to louder and cleaner output. p.s. look at all the crazy ripples. no smoothing. Also, the top run was clipping my input, since REW can only calibrate input levels so high. I'm not sure where all the horn hate came from.

Actually, there is an audyssey thread on the avsforum where audyssey engineers explain it and give support. They dont boost the bottom end, they just taper the top end at certain frequencies. That's audyssey room mode anyway, since most rooms aren't treated, they trim the highs so you dont get an overly harsh sound. Audyssey flat curve, is flat. There was an article published by the guys at Audyssey where they detailed how they arrived at their target frequency response, which actually is nowhwere near flat. They actually target a steadily rising frequency response as you go lower in frequency... I'm not a fan of Audyssey for other reasons, but I wonder if what you were experiencing wasn't due to the modal distribution of your room? One of the interesting things about low frequency content is it requires high frequency content to trigger our ears to listen for it. Low passing a subwoofer...even one with crazy low frequency output makes it sound totally uneventful...it's when you throw in the 30-50Hz body response that the extra low frequency extension starts to reveal its visceral impact...

I don't run anywhere near flat either. I use audyssey to get the baseline calibration in to flat, then just boost the sub channels by X db depending on what I'm listening to... works well

MultEQ XT is great, I haven't played with standard multeq yet, but it was able to eq everything incredibly flat with XT.

Most of the ones on there are designed for P.A. usage, but the THT and THT LP have adequate extension to use for theater.

I've never heard a horn sub before. Are there any commercial horn subs or do you have to build them? I was just wondering bc if there is a commercial horn sub then maybe....just maybe I can hear it at a showroom nearby. What are the specs of the horn subs? The advantages? Is it pretty much like the horn tweeters? Very efficient? The benefit is high efficiency for the tuned range of the horn, and built in filters due to the folds. There are some commercial horn subs, but they wont be available in a show room to demo. Lots of pro-audio gear uses horn loaded subs. Notably, there is the Danley DTS-10, which is a tapped horn, that was a big hit when it was sold as a DIY kit. JTR also has some front loaded horns I believe as well called the growlers and captivators? JBL has quite a few, but again, they're for pro audio. Due to the size, you won't really see many horn subs as a commercial offering. However, if you're not opposed to DIY, for a slightly more complex build, there are huge gains to be had. I can bury the needle on my radio shack meter without the subs even breaking a sweat with dual THTs at my listening position which is 4-5 meters from the subs. I use the terminator salvation gas station scene as a demo, and it shakes the entire house (and this is with the subs and couches on a concrete slab). It feels like the huge robot is stomping around next to you, your hair and clothes move. It's really something, and very cheap to build.

I missed this reply for some reason. Yes, none of the 10 and 12" subs you listed will provide any kind of useful output at 10-20hz. I don't believe there are many (any?) commercial options at this price range with decent output. You can build a THT for under 300 (Driver is 130, plus 2-3 sheets of ply), or if space is limited, build a few of the anarchy 25hz tapped horn and place strategically. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1238398

LOL true but I already noted that.....in order to hit that low you have to spend alot more than $300 IMHO unless you build your own. But me personally even though I know you get more bang for your buck from DIY I like being able to depend on a manufactor to troubleshoot and fix my sub not to mention I don't have the required tools or skills or time to build a sub. But your subs do look impressive. But I wouldn't call anything that can't hit 10 or 15hz unusable......I wish you were nearby because I do want to experience those lows before I buy my SVS...... I had a pair of a7s-650s before I built the THTs. That's (4) 13av.2 drivers (13", 28mm xmax) in sealed enclosures with 2600 watts of power. A single THT was louder and sounded better =] Horn subs are where its at imho.

none of the 10 or 12 inch subs youre listing will reach 10-15 hz with any kind of authority. ie: unusable

The THT definitely works well with klipsch =] I made a pair of 32" wide THT's, since the door opening to my garage is 33" =] 130+db of crystal clear bass at my listening position is great. Unfortunately, it took a while to stop all the rattles. I had to take out the springs in my windows it was so bad. Luckily for me it wasn't a big deal since I built custom acoustic panels to fit the windows already However, the baseboard heaters in the rest of the house go nuts when listening at decent levels. Also, things kind of just walk themselves off of shelves =]

Wow! I was interested in that build, but now I see it isn't for a beginneer! Very nice work! This was my first build of anything other than basic enclosures. It's really not that hard, and the instructions for the build are quite clear. Slightly time consuming, but you really can't go wrong for the price. I spent about $200 for a pair drivers, then all you need is an amp(or two) and a few sheets of plywood. The only thing that really competes for home audio are the dts-10s, which is another horn (tapped, vs front loaded, but also unavailable as a kit anymore and going for thousands built). These things go so loud and clean its ridiculous. With 100w of total output (50 to each sub) I was hitting 125db uncorrected on a radio shack meter at my listening position which is 15ft from the subs. They're also incredibly flat down to 19hz in room after correction from multeq xt. I have uploaded agraph of some rew sweeps. That was as loud as I could get using REW, and the top sweep was clipping my input. rew graph

They're high sensitivity, so most amps will have no problem powering them. Depending on your budget, I'd recommend an amp with multeq xt to correct any room issues. I have a denon 5308 hooked up to mine and I love it.

Commercial subs are just not large enough to not suck. Do you think there's some magic that a commercial builder puts into the enclosure that a normal person can't? It's a lot less complicated than building mains. If you want them to look pretty, you can finish them however you want. Resale value is the worst excuse I've ever heard to not DIY a sub. At the least you can take it apart and reuse the components or sell them at a good price. Wood isn't exactly expensive. I highly recommend front loaded horn subs if you have the room for it. Alternatively, if you don't need such ridiculous bass dynamics or levels, you can build an LLT which will extend very low, or even a sealed box.

forget buying commercial, for $400 you can build a monster sub like a tht or an llt.

Thanks, was trying to keep it dark for the projector, and it worked well. It looks completely different when I have my acoustic panels down and let the light in =]

12-13ft

I use a harmony 550, it works great.