gagelle

Thanks Artto and everyone else. Artto, your explanation is direct and to the point. (And you have some wonderful equipment.) The primary reason for my enquiry is that there seem to be many more tube units with low power ratings. But I've learned that the quality of the sound is much more important than RMS power ratings. If you have a rich, full sound, you don't have to turn the volume up to compensate for missing sound quality. And then there's the issue of power rating reliability. Sansui underated the power output of all their old units. My Sansui 881 tested almost 10 watts higher than the official published ratings. As far as transistors go, its invention is probably the single most significant technological breakthrough we've ever had--I mean the miniaturation led to the idea of putting microscopic transistors on a silicon chip. But for music, I see the point about tubes. Sometimes the old things are the best.

I've been looking around at different tube amps and was wondering how much power I would need. Is a 15 watt tube amp with KLF-30s enough power for a small room? I'm currently using a Sansui amp rated about 70 watts and can barely turn the volume a small amount without blasting me out of the room. I guess Klipsch speakers are perfect for tubes because they're so efficient. I still have to wait awhile because I've been spending too much on audio. I'm really curious now. I may drive to the Bay area to listen to a good tube setup at a high end shop. People have told me that once I experience Klipsch on tubes, I won't be able to go back.

I've been into him for years. I love his two volume Beethoven sonata series. His playing on the transcribed Beethoven 5th is amazing. I picked it up in a record store for practically nothing because the owner said that there aren't many people who buy classical music on vinyl--typical of the city I live in. I remember years ago, the first Tower Records in NYC had a tremendous collection of classical and jazz on vinyl. It's a shame that they went out of business. That place was a landmark.

The Bay Area has much more on Craigs list. I drove there (about 3 hours) to get my Fortes and also to Modesto to get my KLF-30s. Big problem is the small size of my car. It's nice to have a pickup truck.

First, I have to sell off some of my equipment that I don't use. I recently spent more than I planned on a turntable. I'm really into the sound of my Sansui integrated amp. Since I've been on this forum, I've become kind of compulsive with buying things just if they're a "good deal." And there's no end to it. There's always something new or better. I just read about the class D home theater receivers that Pioneer is selling. As the technology is refined, I believe we will see much more powerful and better sounding receivers for home theater. But my interest is primarily excellent 2 channel sound.

I found an article the other day on a Denon receiver that had a real 100 RMS power rating with 7 channels driven at the same time into 8 ohms. Each channel had its own power supply and circuit board. I don't think it's still made but it's a monster weighing over 70 pounds. This article gave an good explanation for some of the low power ratings for home theater receivers. This Denon could pull nearly 10 amps, close to the maximum that should come from a single wall outlet. Imagine how many people would buy a receiver if they were informed that they would need to call in an electrician before hooking it up? Another thing mentioned in the article that I didn't know, is that there's only one state which requires audio equipment to have UL certification.

I finally received "CloseTo The Edge" in SHM. What an experience! I think it is their best. I'm finally getting a turntable in a few weeks so I can compare sound quality. My son has a Hall 5.1 with an entry level Goldring cartridge. The vinyl on his rig beats my CDs every time. He's running a Sansui 881 receiver (that I gave him) with my Epic 3s. The whole combination sounds incredible. He's only 16. I made sure to teach him about Klipsch and good sound quality. This is just some junk for entertainment. My son likes to go into Best Buy occasionally to check out what they're pushing. We went into their so called "high end" room. It was quite an experience. They're selling these speakers (I forget the name) that look like long metal screens. I asked the salesman (more of a boy) for a demonstration. He assured me that those screens are some of the best speakers made. He turned them on for a demo and all I heard was loud muddy booming from a huge subwoofer. I mean, the floor was literally shaking. After I took cover under a table (I live in an active earthquake zone and am always alert.) I politely asked him to turn down the sub. He appeared annoyed but complied with my request. I finally was able to hear these great speakers that look like gyro broilers. No bass, no highs and a feeble midrange. To be fair, I had no idea what was powering them or if they were set up correctly. But we both had a bit of a laugh. I didn't have the heart to tell him what I really thought. But these speakers aren't cheap. I wondered if people really buy these setups: do they fall for the earthquake ruse? There are no small, quality audio stores in my city (that I know of.) so Best Buy is it, since Circuit City went out. I saw a web page the other day called "rip off of the year," or something like that. Denon is selling a wire for $800. I think it's just an RCA pin type.

I picked up a record the other day containing some Bach pieces but with an extra sealed recording of Beethoven's 5th, transcribed for piano by Liszt. I was completely drawn in to this beautiful piece of music. Every note is played slowly. I hate when the 5th is played too fast. Something of the beauty of each note is lost. I've been a Gould fan for years but wasn't aware that he played the 5th on the piano.

So true and an interesting article. I remember as a kid discovering real high fidelity by using my parent's old Magnavox tube set with a built in record player. I used to play the Crosby Stills Nash and Young Deja vu album. It was bliss. The only problem is that it would start breaking up if I made it too loud. That old thing was more furniture than amplifier but I'm sure the wizzards here could turn it into something special. Did I mention it was mono? I was thrilled with the sound because it was so much better than the popular transistor radios in the house.

I'll probably try tubes one day. I have noticed that some of them are quite expensive. On another post, someone recommended Jolida. I went to their site and found out that they are involved in litigation with one of their distributors. They claim that their distributor stole some of their designs and began making fake units; that the real Jolida site ends with .net and the fake one ends with .com. They already won in Chinese court and are now litigating in the US. I found this interesting. But they are offering some deep discounts now.

Don, I understand what you're saying. There is, of course, "pure art" that has no other purpose than to inspire a feeling of beauty, like a painting or a poem. But we moderns tend to catagorize and compartmentalize too much. Take the field of psychology, for example. Who can make a definite distinction between the scientifically observable parts of our bodies and the depths of the human psyche? When the twentieth century scholar Joseph Campbell first saw a computer motherboard, he went into revery while meditating on its beauty. And take the case of the ninteenth century Indian mathemation. (This was in the New York Times in the early 1980s.) This fellow had no formal education, just a few outdated math books. He became obsessed with the subject and developed his skill to such a point that he gained the recognition of prominent mathemations. He began writing complex formulas that astounded his colleagues with their elegance and beauty. He claimed that they came to him in dreams. Then in the 1980s, computers proved that his equations were correct! There are things of beauty that have both form and function. Methinks we moderns too quickly dismiss the idea that a tube can be both a work of art and also have an elegant function. And its creater is indeed an artist. ""True Wit is Nature to advantage dress'd What oft was thought, but ne'er so well express'd; Something whose truth convinced at sight we find, That gives us back the image of our mind." ---Alexander Pope

Could someone explain to me why tubes sound so much better, especially with Klipsch speakers, that audiophiles are willing to spend more money and time to obtain even a used set. I honestly have never heard a tube setup and probably would not invest in one until I could experience it for myself. Does it especially do well with classical music and vinyl? I've also read that certain tube sets lack bass, but that may be the particular set I was reading about.

I did some research and indeed there is a capacitor coupled mode that protects external amps hooked up to the preamp output jacks on the Sansui AU series of integrated amps from DC current. There is a switch for direct (which sounds better) or capacitor coupled mode. See: http://tinyurl.com/3v2ojek [Open in new window]

Thanks for the lead but Rick doesn't have it either. It's very hard to find.

I have a Sansui 717. It sounds wonderful with my KLF30s and would probably sound great with my Cornwall 3s It has to be carefully reatored, however, because Sansui used a glue that turned out to be corrosive. It must be removed and anything it came into contact with must be replaced. The Sansui section of Audiokarma.com has a tutorial for those who want to do it themselves. This integrated amp sounds so good, it's worth the trouble and expense for restoration. It would cost much more to find something new that even came close to its rich sound.

Thanks very much. Best, Seth

Hi Dr. Who. Although the definition below is a very general description, it gives a basic idea of a capacitor's function. This is where I thought of the idea. But there's an easy way to find out. I have a schematic of my AU-717. If I could learn to interpret the symbols, I could find out if there is a capacitor involved in the protected preamp circuit. But I have some work to do as I imagine that understanding a schematic is no easy task. "A capacitor (formerly known as condenser) is a device for storing electric charge...Capacitors are widely used in electronic circuits for blocking direct current while allowing alternating current to pass, in filter networks, for smoothing the output of power supplies,..." From Wikipedia

I was following the construction of a tube amplifier by two masters and, unfortunetely, lost the thread. I was in awe as I watched the creation of this work of art. This thing is of publishable quality. I realized that there is little difference between the creation of an amplifier and the creation of a piece of fine art like a painting. The ancient Greeks considered the mastery of any occupation as an "art" which would often take a lifetime to perfect. Could it be that their eyes were more sensitive to beauty than we moderns?

You're probably correct as I'm an amateur with these matters. I got the idea from a post by an engineer on AudioKarma. My Sansui has a "protected/unprotected" switch next to the preamp out jacks and according to this engineer's post, an added capacitor is placed in the protected circuit as it stores (delays) the movement of energy to tha amp from the preamp. I'm still readimg up on what exactly capacitors do and what different kinds there are, so as I said, you know more about this stuff than I do.

Larry, I copied this quote from the Needle Doctor web Site: "The owners manual claims in both English and Japanese 1.6mV of output, but when I tested the cartridge it produced 2.2mV. That's the difference between an easy-to use and tweak cartridge. I've always suspected the output was higher then claimed. . . Best diamond stylus in its price range. Under a microscope, it looks like a 100% nude, square-shank diamond with a very fine cut similar to cartridges costing twice the price. I love it. To get the maximum enjoyment out of your album collection, check out the Denon DL-110 phono cartridge. The Denon DL-110 is a moving-coil cartridge. However, it is has high output, and can therefore be used with a moving-magnet phono input."

Thanks Larry. I'll check with Needle Doctor. I actually have an Emotiva preamp that has a MC input, but that would mean bypassing the Sansui preamp which may effect the sound quality. I also already have too much equipment in a small room--computer, printer, KLF-30s. Soon I'll have to move out and sleep in the living room. My son jokingly said: "why don't we set something up in the bathroom.

I've read that the Denon DL-110 MC cartridge has high output and doesn't need a transformer or moving coil preamp--that it just plugs into the RCA jacks. It is relativily inexpensive and some reviewers say it beat the Elys2 that comes with the Rega-P3. Seems like you get the advantages of a MC without having to spend extra money for a MC input. What do you experts think? I would like the Rega P3 with the Denon cartridge. I've just about given up on a vintage turntable. Number 1 is they're not that cheap, and number 2, damage in shipment seems to be a common occurance. Now I just have to figure out a way to come up with the money. My primary idea is that there's no point (Not a pun on Stylus point) in getting a vinyl setup if it doesn't beat the sound quality of my CD system. My Son's Hall 5.1 definitely does, and he has a low end Goldring cartridge. (I don't think there's such a thing as a low end Goldring.) I just love the sound of that thing, but that's MHO.

I bought this unit a week ago but can't find the instruction or user manual. There's a multiplicity of switches for various filters Etc. I have no idea what they do. A user manual would be helpful but I'm told it's rare. I would gladly pay for one. Thanks for any help.

A few weeks ago I heard a loud popping sound when my son turned on my system which has an Emotive 3 channel amp hooked to the preamp outputs of my Harman Kardon receiver. I couldn't find an answer that satisfied me. So I spent the last few weeks studying the engineering of amplification. I have no background in the field, so my answer is just a theory by an amateur. There are two methods to add an amplifier to the preamp output of a receiver, : direct and indirect. The indirect method is safer because there is a capicator in the preamp line to act as a buffer in case the preamp spills any DC current when it is started. This can cause damage to the amplifier attached to the preamp outputs. With the direct method, the sound is supposed to be better, but the equipment must be turned on and off in a certain sequence. The preamp (or receiver) must be turned on first and allowed to go through its startup routine. Then the amplifier should be turned on. When turning off, the amp should be turned off first, then the receiver. This theory is based on the assumption that my home theater receiver has no capacitor in the preamp out circuit. Why? Because as is well known, most home theater receivers were made as cheaply as possible. An extra cap to protect the preamp out circuit would be an anathema to the cult of cost saving. My Sansui AU-717 has a switch that lets the user choose a direct or indirect connection. But that unit was made by by a company that put quality first, and they weren't cheap in their day either.

There's a Denon I was looking at that was made in the 80s. I read some terrific reviews of the turntable. The only (and serious) problem is the MC cartridge that came it is not made any more and the stylus is very difficult to find. I've read that the turntable sounds best with the Denon MC cartridge that came with it. The seller doesn't know the condition of the stylus and I don't want to ruin my record collection with a bad stylus. The seller allows returns. But how can I determine the stylus' condition? I've read that you need a certain kind of microscope. Incidently, Denon is making an anniversity edition of their best turntable with the Denon MC cartridge but the price is over $2000. I guess I can dream!