001
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Posts posted by 001
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On 7/9/2022 at 8:02 AM, mboxler said:
Is this kinda what you are asking? Here's a REW voltage test using three different 2uf capacitors in series with an 8 ohm resistor. The plots are the voltages across the resistor.
As you can see in the first plot, they pretty much lay on top of each other. The second one is zoomed in, and they are within .15 db of each other.
Red is a Sonicap 2.01uf
Orange is a 2.04uf oil can pulled from an old Heresy.
Green is a new GE polyester 2.01ufI'm still trying to figure out why my crude setup always shows a voltage drop around 19khz.
Mike
yes that chart shows some info of whats happening, but more important is how that info or any other data equates to sound or function of the speaker.
hypothetically, lets say a sonicap changes the voltage curve from the originals by X amount... what does that mean as far as frequencies or other aspects of what we will actually hear? because for myself & the majority of listeners that dont have sophisticated equipment to do tests that will show the slight differences, what they hear is all that really matters, unless this change will damage the speaker or something?
-- so after over a month still no answer to what should be pretty simple capacitor questions.. just the typical ambiguous comments followed by...
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22 hours ago, Crankysoldermeister said:
I read your post, but you were addressing @Chief bonehead
https://wiraelectrical.com/crossover-network/
Like so many things, there is the surface understanding of a thing, and then the much deeper understanding. Since I'm not an engineer, it shouldn't be hard to figure out which side of this I'm on. A true understanding uses a language called "math". I have no idea what it is.
It makes sense that if you use different parts, then you are changing the original transfer function(s). The questions are, 1) how much, and 2) is it always bad.
I'm in discussion with Roy right now and I think he's trying to figure out if he should fire me or not.
yes, i did quote him since hes the one that mentions the voltage curve, but no further explanation is ever provided about why or how it will change the sound or function of the speaker compared to PP or similar PE caps. but, i did also ask for others that have knowledge on this to reply if they could or wanted to... "it would be very helpful if you or someone with knowledge on this can shed some light on this subject as im sure there are others that want to know or learn... "
thanks for the reply, i understand there is a deeper understanding & more to it, im looking for the surface understanding with basic answers to the 2 questions you mentioned, as well as the 3rd one i asked comparing quality/price of the same type of caps to klipsch/jem.
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yeah ebay non sold items & some other places pricing is not really a good representation of somethings value... more often that not the prices you see for listed items is bogus because they dont actually sell for that price, need to click on actual sold items to get a more accurate idea of what something sold for. i see way too many items both audio & automotive related that will sit there for 6 months or more & not sell, or if they do sell its because they found someone with more money than brains or it was a fluke to never happen again. market is higher than ever before for most things right now but $2800 for v3 black cf4s is ridiculous & i doubt they will sell for that much, so dont get too excited thinking cf3 are worth $2500 regardless of version, thats verging on lascala territory or even K-horns that need a little work. but best of luck to this seller.
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15 hours ago, Crankysoldermeister said:
Someone is going to have to pay me to read all of that.
i'll give you a dollar to read it, but you gotta reply with some sort of explanation or even just your opinion on the matter. its not really that long compared to some other posts ive seen on here & is pretty direct & to the point... but yes some rambling with personal experiences & replies to off topic oil comments. still a few very valid questions that have never really been addressed or clarified.
but heres the condensed version:
1> pick a common budget PP cap like sonicap or dayton etc- how much of a voltage curve change will happen vs klipsch/jem caps? & at what point will that actually affect the sound or function of the speakers for the average person? i get that the voltage curve is important, but if you cant hear it & it wont damage the speakers why all the fuss? just trying to understand.
2> now pick a common polyester cap similar to klipsch or jem, if its the same type of cap, how much if any will that change the voltage curve/sound/function?
3> can we get any mention or description of jem quality vs other decent brand similar PE caps? im trying to understand why caps that cost .50-$1ea everywhere else cost 10x that to buy from jem?
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19 hours ago, KT88 said:
I bought polyester caps off the shelf because JEM is too expensive to ship to Germany with customs, import tax and shipping. JEM for my 1977 LaScala would have cost 170 USD by the time they got to me, so I bought polyester caps from Mouser, Nichcon and Kemet for a handful of dollars. So I was at 25 USD for everything together. Like you, I thought I was still within the 10% tolerance with 2.2 uF and 2x 6.8 uF instead of 1 x 13 uF.
I would do it the same way if I were you. This way you can test whether the polyester route is satisfactory for you...with very good brands and low costs. But of course it is not so exact in comparison with the real values which are only offered by JEM.
just to clarify, many brands including the ones im looking at & have bought PP from many times, do have the "real values" for the majority of these older klipsch heritage & extended heritage or KLF/KG models, most these speakers use standard values, lots of 1.5, 2.0, 3, 5, 6 etc etc, majority of companies offer these values. if not some can probably make them based on what they told me last time i ordered caps a few years ago.
for the most part, other brands offer the same correct values for most klipsch speakers as jem, aside from maybe a couple oddities, but again these caps are 10% tolerance so deviating from the stated value a few decimal points shouldn't matter too much to the for average use, high dollar very critical situations are of course different. i asked recently about some KG4 i recapped, one of the new caps was off by about .2 but still well within the 10% value, every member here that replied said it would be fine if they are off by 1-2%, the caps i used were 5% tolerance & some claim to be 1%.
the price is the other main reason im asking about other brand PE cap options, every single brand that sells PE/mylar caps they are about .50- $1 ea or maybe a couple bucks ea for larger values, there is all of about 4-6 caps for most models of this era, strange that jem charges $40-$50 for 4 chorus or forte mylar caps from what ive seen posted, but i havent checked on that recently... seems like a rather high markup for these caps with no mention of quality.
so far doesnt look like i/we are going to get much info or confirmation on this subject, & thats fine if klipsch doesnt want to comment on this, im sure i could research this for awhile or ask other "reputable' people/companies that do this type of crossover work or much more intricate complete audio repair/restorations... just thought id inquire with the source in hopes of some help & input....
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maybe some lucky non forum member got em ??
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On 7/6/2022 at 3:24 PM, RandyH said:
I do ....... keeping accurate information is VIP
yes accurate info is VIP... very important person
"klipsch TI tweeters are superior to crites, crites are aftermarket clones" klipsch are aftermarket too... & there is no data or proof to show crites are inferior.
"jem are the best caps" ...
"chorus 2 midrange are 16 ohms".. chorus/2, forte/2, heresy/2, quartet etc mid drivers measure ~11.8-12 ohms, nowhere near 16.
& thats just in the last week or so....
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23 hours ago, KT88 said:
Oh, with the analogy to engine oil I addressed the right one
Sorry, it was just an example of how things and requirements change over the years. Unfortunately I made obviously false claims, even though our three 60's and 70's cars run on mineral oil (of today's production without oil sludge).
I hope other members will come forward with better expertise and explain that a certain measurable voltage curve of a capacitor is the result of its ESR characteristics. So with a higher ESR (equivalent series resistance) the voltage drop is greater. And this is also dependent on the frequency being measured.
If you like the sound of polypropylene caps, use them. Unfortunately, some users only compare old worn out polyester original Klipsch caps with brand new PP caps. Then they like the new PP caps better, but they have not heard how good new unused polyester caps can sound in terms of the characteristics of frequency balance between all three drivers, the timing of the drivers to each other and also in the characteristics of a more natural midrange and treble horn sound.Regarding brands, I would think that the reputable polyester cap brands are very comparable and hardly sound different. There is little marketing hue and cry because this are relatively cheap caps, even the good ones.
As I said it before...the USP of JEM is that only there you get the correct capacitance values like e.g. 13 uF or 2 uF.i use conventional oil in one of my cars too, but only for the higher zinc for the flat tappet cam & its cheaper priced.
i hope we get a understandable but basic explanation too, that is why im asking, majority of audio guys like to understand the why or reason something works or does what it does, or at least try to understand from a laymen's terms explanation.
i do like the PP caps & so do countless others, i agree some are comparing to old or out of spec caps, but some on here have said the stock caps dont fail or at least not in our lifetime. my experience was they did "fail" to change the sound terribly, & im a long time klipsch owner & had forte 2 at the same time, hooked up the chorus in the same exact spot on same system & was very disappointed... changed to budget PP caps & they sounded like brand new speakers. about 1 year lateer i bought 2 pair of chorus 2 & compared them as directly as i could, to me there was a noticeable but slight improvement in the mids/tweets, especially at higher volumes.
that is also the reason im asking about changing to the same style but different brand polyester caps, if there is a audible difference i would like to compare that & possibly change to PE caps from PP in my chorus2 & forte2... but being on a budget i would possibly try a different brand than jem if it can be confirmed they would be generally the same as far as ESR or voltage curve because im pretty sure nobody can hear the difference from a minimal difference in esr, heck capacitance values can vary up to 10% on new caps. the other brand polyester cap im looking at is 5% tolerance & they offer the same values that most these era of older klipsch speakers use, pretty sure they can make ones they dont have too.
again, just hoping to learn a little on this issue to help with future decisions, maybe i will jump on the polyester bandwagon?
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20 hours ago, KT88 said:
001, I think your questions are very valid. I remember Roy addressing the issue months ago. And there were some good posts by Captainbeefheart on the subject of capacitors. BTW I hope CBH is well, he has not been in touch since May and he is a valuable contributor to this forum from my point of view.
Re the caps, the easiest way is if all components are from the present era, so we have to understand circuits in the context of their time. The components of the 1950s were different from those of the 1970s and so on. It's even a little cultural history. Not only the components are different. The music is also different, the taste in sound is different - we are different.A comparison will help: What is the best engine oil? maybe a 0W30 full synthetic oil. It has the best running characteristics, the best heat resistance, the lowest friction values, the longest service life and much more. Let's assume that this 0W30 oil is a polypropylene cap with the lowest possible ESR, the greatest clarity etc. It is certainly a good choice for e.g. a very modern conventional loudspeaker. Ok, let's pour the best engine oil into the engine of a 1975 Porsche 911. It will be fine...no it won't. It will attack all the old sealing materials and the engine will need a lot of oil very quickly. In addition, the oil is much too thin and it can lead to piston seizure. Ok, what is the best oil for our 1975 911? It is the oil that was available at that time, a mineral 20W50 oil. That's what it was built for and that's what the oil was developed for.
The same applies to a 1975 Lascala...there was only what was available, to put it somewhat simplistically. But the fantastic thing is that all the parts work very well together and it forms an organic whole. I bet they didn't think so much about ESR, for example, back then. They did their calculations and tried parts on that basis and they saw when it had a super sound result. Then they did some fine tuning and that was it. Today we have to understand why the best polypropylene cap from now doesn't sound good in my 1977 LaScala and why synthetic oil harms the old Porsche, so we have more to think about it than in the past.
Captainbeefheart has pointed out a behaviour of the polyester cap (the appropriate one for old Klipsch Heritage speakers) that has nothing to do with the frequency range where we need it. It is about a high ESR at e.g. 200 Hz with a cap that we need at a crossover frequency of e.g. 6000 Hz. The modern polypropylene type would also be "good" at 200 Hz (low ESR). This would be wrong because the total impedance of the whole crossover network would get out of joint. 001, this is a result of CBHs measurements and therefore partly a reply to your question regarding some exploration re this topic.
This is just my amateurish attempt to explain why new components are not always better. Their "Q" would be wrong in the result for what the K401, for example, needs.
The consecutive question is why e.g. JEM as a support dealer. Quite simply because all interested customers with vintage Klipsch gear will receive components that have been tested….for a reasonable price. Firstly, it was an investment by Klipsch to test all possible cap types...to find one type behaving like the original old caps. Secondly, JEM offers values that the Klipsch crossovers need but are not commercially available. Roy pointed out that it is important to take the right values into account because the caps are put in series after another e.g. in the AA type network, so a wrong value can multiply wrong effects. I personally would definitely buy JEM caps or start with their products when living in the US. Furthermore, I would like to reiterate that I believe that basically every Klipsch lover should be free to do what they want...be it that they are happy with their choice of components, be it because they have had the great experience of their personal journey... I don't want to convert anyone.thanks for the reply, your explanation helps somewhat, but still hoping for some type of explanation regarding what this voltage curve actually means for the average person that changes caps & what they will actually hear by changing to a different style cap like a polypropylene. if the voltage curve difference will change the sound so much why would "reputable" (thanks for the definition of that word @Khornukopia ) people do this for so long & how is it that so many people for so long have loved the sound of PP caps? myself included, i notice no negative changes to the sound of multiple klipsch speakers i have changed caps on to just budget PP caps, as well as many other brands of speakers. It has always made a noticeable improvement in sound to me & other friends that have heard them... & to the whole mylar caps dont ever fail thing, my personal example is a pair of chorus2 i own that sounded like a towel was covering the fronts when i got them, changed to PP caps, it was night & day improvement... i also had 2 other pair of chorus2 here at the time that were stock caps, they sounded fine, so the caps in the other pair definitely failed for some reason, the prev original owner that was 65 years old lived in an apartment & listened to classical or jazz music, said he rarely if ever turned them up.
but the other question that i asked was more about using the same type of caps, meaning polyester/mylar but of another brand. how or why would that change the voltage curve if they are the same types of caps? using different polypropylene caps doesnt apply there... so im genuinely curious if or why using the same type of cap, possibly better quality, would change the voltage curve & if so what does that mean for actual sound or function of the speaker? the rest of the question was regarding if the other brands of similar caps have been compared to jem or what actually makes jem "authorized" or as stated a few times now... "superior?" they are both valid questions for guys considering changing their caps with the same type as original or going to what is usually considered a much better quality PP cap. i hope thats not too much to ask.
-- as for the oil analogy, i respectfully disagree with that, i own & have been building & racing classic muscle cars for 30+ years & am very familiar with oil technology & changes over the years. a synthetic oil will not "attack" any sealing gaskets, it may have more cleaning agents that can clean built up sludge & can find its way past compromised or failed gaskets, but it doesnt attack the actual gasket at all. i run synthetic in 2 different classic cars as well as a daily driver 25+ year old jeep 4.0 & they do not leak any more than the same weight of conventional oil does. if you have old/bad gaskets then using conv oil is kind of a band aid to reduce leaks.
also a synthetic oil of the correct weight the engine calls for wont cause piston seizure or any other damage, synthetics are the same basic weight as conv oil & meet the same required specs for any given weight, they just may flow a little better at cold temps due to the different/better make up of the molecules. i have never heard of or seen piston seizure using the proper weight of synthetic oil. there is no oil today that is the same as almost 50 years ago, so you cant use or buy oils that were used back then, that would be like a SE grade! oils back then were horrible aside from maybe the high zddp (zinc/phos) content, oils back then were notorious for sludge problems & probably contributed to or caused countless engine damage or failures. todays oil, both synthetic & conv are far better than oil of even 20-25 years ago. you can use a synthetic or regular 20/50 in a 1977 porsche, chevy, ford, mopar etc if that is the weight the engine calls for with zero negative effects on the pistons or running engine as a whole. but yes old deteriorated gaskets can leak more on synthetic, if the gaskets are good synthetic is fine & of much better quality than standard oil. but just like speakers & capacitors, i realize oil is a touchy subject for some & will get all kinds of opinions based on old myths, not modern facts. sorry for the long reply on oil, i may be a novice on crossovers but when it comes to cars, engines or oils, i definitely have lots of experience & do all my own assembly & work aside from the actual machine work on the engines.
thanks again for the reply, it was helpful. hopefully we can get some more info on this subject so guys can make better educated decisions.
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21 hours ago, Chief bonehead said:
In order not to change the voltage transfer curve. How many times must this be repeated? It’s not just about the perceived quality of the cap.
ok, this is a legitimate question not a "peanut gallery" comment... i have asked before but never really get a reply or explanation. if the voltage curve is so important & its implied that changing caps will mess this up, can you or someone explain how a given cap will change the curve or if that will have any noticeable affect on the sound? its kind of a blanket statement to keep saying it will change the curve but no data or test results to show how much it will be changed. im sure other people & companies that offer this type of service know about voltage curves & other aspects of crossover work to know if changing a cap would affect the sound or operation of the speaker so drastically.
& more to that point, how do you know how much, if any, a certain type or brand of cap will change the voltage curve? have numerous caps been compared to the "klipsch authorized" caps? i realize a different type of cap such as a polypropylene will have different characteristics than the ones klipsch uses, but no comparisons have ever been provided. so lets use similar caps as an example, will a polyester/mylar cap that is the same type as the original stock or jem caps change the voltage curve too? & if so, is it enough of a change to ever actually hear a difference?
there are many of these types of caps out there, some state they use higher quality materials or higher quality manufacturing etc than others. yet we have no details on these aspects from jem or klipsch, i recall reading the KSC or maybe T.I. marked caps klipsch used in the older generation 1.0 & 2.0 models like quartet, forte, chorus, KG, KLF etc were made in mexico with no claims of quality. yet some brands stress their caps are made in germany & with high quality materials like dupont film etc. so how is the average person supposed to know if one brand of similar caps are better than another in regards to voltage curves or quality?
again, this is a legit question since the average guy has no way to determine these things & the statements given of "because i said so" are rather vague with no further info ever provided. if its top secret or proprietary i understand, but to just keep saying any cap besides original klipsch or jem caps will change the voltage curve leaves a lot to be desired & doesnt help the average guy considering replacing aged caps or wanting to maybe try to improve/upgrade caps.
it would be very helpful if you or someone with knowledge on this can shed some light on this subject as im sure there are others that want to know or learn... clarifying the matter with some test results or data would probably help klipsch/jem & support that their caps are "superior" to other brands.
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if it is a crossover or capacitor issue, you can reach out to the company that has been servicing klipsch crossovers & selling high quality parts for decades... & they can actually test & repair the crossovers for you if needed or sell capacitors & parts to repair them if you can do the work yourself.
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ok, sorry. not too familiar with the reference premier stuff & wasnt sure what 2.0 meant.
unless klipsch uses a newly designed plate amp & other quality upgrades on future subs from the majority of their past subs, for the money i would look at other brands if you want a ready to run sub out of the box vs DIY... SVS, HSU, rythmic, velodyne etc.
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2.0?
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arent klipsch diaphragms "aftermarket" too? i wasnt aware klipsch made their own drivers.
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after listening for awhile, get a decent sub & listen again... you will hear what they are missing.
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the comment was pretty clear... i asked the guy if he has ever tested to reach that determination, but got crickets as usual... how does one know something is "superior" if they have never tested or probably never even owned or heard the thing(s) they are discrediting & insulting?
what i find funny is if you go back a few years, before jem or klipch TI tweeters, this same person liked the crites caps & tweeters & even recommended them to other members, but hard to find those posts out of 61.4k other posts that get edited all the time...
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20 hours ago, John Chi-town said:
It does. I also have the matching GFP 750 PRE, also CLASS A as well as the GCD 750 1-disc player. Over the last 30 years I have owned many and only ADCOM products. The MOSFET designs INMHO are the most refined with plenty of deep end. Please reference attached link, which provides spec's on the GFA 5802
that GTP750 is a awesome pre, would like to get one someday if the prices ever come down a bit.
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"it is superior to the B&C tweeters"
have you done some kind of testing to confirm this statement? if so can you post the test or some type of info to back up this claim?
i have no experience comparing the 2 different diaphragms but myself & countless others are more than happy with their crites titaniums for decades so would like to see proof of this claim. same goes for all the crites crossover/cap bashing....
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1 hour ago, John Chi-town said:
I completely agree with your assessment. Which is why I run an ADCOM 5802 which is 300 watts per channel into 8 OHMS. The first 25 or so in Class A, after that runs A/B. Apparently, the OP is driving his receiver to the limit.
im a long time adcom fan, have owned over 10 GFA555ii amps. i used to run my chorus 2 & some other dual 12" woofer speakers on 2 bridged 555s at like 600watts each, obviously never used all that power but in a large open room for parties or just wanting to recreate big rock band concert volumes they did the trick with tons of reserve power, never even flickered the clipping lights in bridged or single stereo mode. id like to try the 5000 series mosfet adcoms, wasnt aware they offered class A operation, bet it sounds great!
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22 hours ago, 001 said:
woofer is 4 Ohms - Tweeter is 8 Ohms -Midrange is 16 Ohms
ohm readings i get on my chorus 2 & forte 2 are 8.7 tweet & 11.5 mid, have read others post within .1-.2 of those numbers too. never seen 16ohms on the chorus/forte mid.
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3 minutes ago, tigerwoodKhorns said:
I love this place. The OP has been gone for over one month and he is still getting advice.
many time newbies disappear after a couple posts... but the OP has logged in on 6/13 so only about 2 weeks since he checked in.
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22 hours ago, John Chi-town said:
Unless you are listening with ear protection, why on earth would you need more than 20 REAL Watts going into that pair? Peak power INMHO is not driving the speakers at or beyond the specs for an extended period of time, and 20 WATTS of real power will bring the Chorus to peak decibel output.
chorus handle a ton of power, the benefit of more power isnt just DB increase, having some reserve power or headroom means the amp isnt working as hard & may provide stronger bass & better sound overall at any given DB level. & will make it "easier" to drive the speaker harder or to higher volume levels. so for power hungry speakers like the chorus, or big klf's & epics etc, a bigger amp, of decent quality, will usually have better performance compared to the same quality lower power amp. also i recall seeing a chart or someone quoting a PWK article showing what the DB of a speaker does with a certain watt, speakers are rated at a specific db for a certain distance... there are variables for DB vs watts, when you are further away than that spec you need more power to reach the same DB, same with a bigger room.
my point was that if hes listening at high volumes as he described, a 100watt receiver that is usually not as good of quality power as a separate amp of the same watts, can easily get distorted &/or lose bass/sound quality. a mid-fi at best 100watt per channel receiver can & will usually "muddle" the sound or lose bass performance at even moderate volumes, no ear protection required to tell the difference.
i run onkyo receivers at ~100wpc for home theater or non critical 2channel use, compared to even a 165wpc onkyo M-504 separate amp, the sound difference at any volume is very noticeable... the 200wpc separate adcom or rotel amps are a night & day difference over the 100w receiver.
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that denon is only 100wpc, the power itself is not enough to hurt chorus that have peak power of ~1000watts. however, pushing any amp to hard can cause clipping/distortion that can damage speakers. chances are you are hearing the amp hit its max ability & the sound falls apart at higher volumes but would need a better description of whats happening than "a muddle sound"
you can check the drivers for ohm readings, not voltage, by pulling them from the cabinet & unhooking the wires. a simple multi meter or ohm meter will show if tehy are out of spec. myself or others can post the ohm ratings for each driver if you want to check them. are these chorus or chorus2?
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3 minutes ago, Dave A said:
It would be nice if there was a time limit on edits here and people had to live with what they posted. Make a second post perhaps to clarify or correct but the original post would stay after perhaps a 10 minute window of opportunity to correct for bad grammar and spelling.
completely agree! i type too fast sometimes & have to edit typos or spelling errors but i usually catch it pretty quick, but most people can read through or past typos. some go back & change or edit what they post days later or change their user name every 30 days...
Klipsch crossovers
in Technical/Restorations
Posted
they are marked "T.I." & some have confirmed what that brand is, but no further info is ever provided on jem caps quality or comparison to other popular brands like sonicaps or even the same type of polyester caps as jem/klipsch, so far all we get are ambiguous comments with no real data or explanation... or the subjective opinions from a guy that has never tested or probably even owned the caps or other products he bashes.
i agree & im sure many others do too, that some type of info on quality or comparisons of jem to other caps would be nice & probably even help the sales of their caps if they are as good as some say or their price suggests...