Dave A
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Posts posted by Dave A
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I have two amps. One is an Onkyo 8050 and if I try to run the KP-301,260 or 250's off them I have to be careful about bass levels as it will clip. I also have a Crown XLi 800 and it does not have these clipping problems up to louder than I care to play them. The Onkyo will run a pair of KP-480's and pro La Scalas with no issue but the sound is better with the Crown amp. I like the bass treble sound controls on the Onkyo better but if I feed the Crown right even though all it does is amplify the sound quality is better. I think the extra watt headroom makes a difference and if I replace the Onkyo it will have to be with something far more powerful.
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3 minutes ago, ricktate said:
I did notice that when I put veneer on the outside of my Scalas the side panels were much stiffer to move by hand. Before I could actually move them in and out with out much trouble. But now they seem to be much stiffer. I did not test them side by side but its safe to say just veneer on the outside does help a bit.
I have had five sets of La Scalas. The fifth one which I intend keeping is an Industrial one piece fiberglass covered set. I think between the fiberglass and the aluminum corner reinforcements it is a much stiffer cabinet. Now it also has a K-43 and not a K-33 woofer which also adds to the sound quality but for sure I think the much stiffer industrial cabinet helps a lot.
+1 for particle board is crap by the way, It is hard to imagine with the huge cost of new Klipsch they would opt for MDF over thicker plywood. I have read stories of plywood cabinets rolling down stairs and being beat up but surviving. Somehow I see big broken chunks in my minds eye with MDF.
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On 8/30/2017 at 2:19 PM, justinsweber said:
Dave. No worries. I was just saying I chimed in with my 2 cents. Prob no need to recount it.
Regarding cab size. 5.8-6.2 cu ft. Most stay true to the 2dt cubed. When I have shrunk the cab a bit I have found the 15C woofer to be more responsive/tighter bass.
Re bass. The LS bass is fast, tight and large but lacks the visceral response the CW has, at least to me. The CW in practical terms goes ~15hz deeper. As the LS begins to die at 60hz and the CW at 45hz.
As Dave is a wiz in CAD I'd also suggest building an Edgar horn/ get a fastrac horn and put in all into 1 cab the size of a Cornwall. You'll have a speaker significantly smaller than a LS with deeper bass.
Interesting that you say that about the fastrac. I have read a number of places where people talk about bad resonance from thin wall plastic horns or from metal horns.
As an aside here. It seems like nothing is best singular known method here in audio land. I come from a back round where there is almost always a best way to do things. A design that is efficient and can be produced. Where manufacturing parts is pretty well proven science with known best ways of doing so. Still you have to dig for these things and then there is a group that wants to stay with what they knew but not realize there is a better way and provably so by the life of cutters and increase in cubic inch per minute metal removal rates. Part of the equation I go through to arrive at best practices in my shop is to find A, the guys who have actually done things similar to what I propose to do and B, have verifiable excellent results. In general I can go to see these things being done in real life and make qualified judgements as to how I should proceed.
Here things are different. I can read a ton of variations and opinions but have little resource to actually verify that what the author says is correct by going to see and hear what was done. So I have to slog through numerous here is the best way scenarios to try and figure out who has the best well rounded practical builder knowledge according to their technical presentation on a forum and not a combination of standing there and hearing in person to judge for MY ears that what was done was right for me. There is an old adage that says measure twice and cut once. I do not want to try and reinvent the wheel I just want to find the best way and I am wondering if this is even possible. Perhaps our ears and perception are so diverse this is a naive hope on my part and I will just have to jump in and forge ahead. It is not just this forum, it is all the audio forums. I have observed a few very nice looking systems when I have been buying speakers but it seems there was never time to sit and hear and have explained what was done and why. I have to say that these systems were far more involved than I will ever need or want. I just want two channel audio because I am not a TV watcher. I want a self contained preferably one piece cabinet at best and a two piece like the newer la Scalas would be fine too. I am in awe of you guys with these theater setups and would like to stop in and hear but I have no desire to emulate you. Simple two channel Dave is my goal.
Anyway back to Fastrac.
I had considered the idea of machining a horn. I can make it in two halves to be joined quite easily and it could be any material I choose. Wood obviously has advantages in this area with screws and glues to join the halves and it looks good. I have often thought stacked maple butcher blocks would be pretty as well as a good base material. I can machine out of solid Delrin plastic two halves and screw and seal the joining surface and make it all thick enough to never worry about resonance. I can do the same with aluminum. Lots of $$$ for the material though. After all if you are removing the center cavity only out of a block that leaves a ton of dampening material. Then I think well OK can you even hear such a difference? The K400 horn sounds just fine to me. I like the La Scala's I just don't like the lack of profound bass with things like Toccata in D Minor.
" I understand. Please explain why so many want the Cornwall low end then? That's not folded horn woofer design...
Note: I am new to heritage speakers with folded woofer designs.....this is an honest question."Part of my dilemma too. I have had both Cornwall and Chorus speakers here. Both quite different to me and different from my industrial La Scalas. The KP-480 sub I am using with the La Scala's sounds a bit muddy to me and does not go low enough. The Cornwalls and Chorus's go deep but do not have the clarity of the La Scalas even though I really like the way they sound. Another consideration is my audio environment which is in my shop. All hard surfaces everywhere. The La Scala's seem to direct sound better to a central listening area and the speaker cabinet types are not so directional. My sound room is next to the CNC mill and lathe. The Cornscala was to me a possible worthwhile compromise that would allow me directional sound and bass and clarity in my environment.
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14 minutes ago, jjptkd said:
The 480's are decent subs if given enough power but they don't go much lower than the La Scala's, if I were you I'd probably try different sub options before going through the work of building new cabinets unless its something you just want to do.
Part of my reasoning to build is to reduce the shear size of the speakers. Part of my reason is because I want to. Whatever I do though i want it to be a significant improvement or it serves no purpose but size reduction which is nice but not enough.
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Hey Justin it was a typo on my part and should have read ASD not SD. For some reason as I type this what I remember in talking to you was the Universal but looking at my notes it was the Cornscalla Universal. It was a long day when I typed all that. I am listening to you but what I would really like is for direct first person comparisons. I take it you have done this? If so what exactly were the improvements in the bass area. Refresh my memory if we did discuss this as I may not have jotted that down in my notes.
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I have all the pieces of the puzzle including an AA crossover, k400 horns k55 drivers K33 woofers and K77 tweeters. I have already had some recommendations to change the tweeters to an Eminence ASD1001 and get the ALK Universal Cornscala crossover. What I am listening to now is a pair of La Scala industrials sitting on top of a pair of KP-480's. For those of you who have built Cornscalas and had La Scalas too I would like to know if the Cornscalas will sound as good as the La Scalas and provide the bass needed to do away with the need for sub woofers. I respect the genius of Klipsch and lean towards using all the original components I have and just changing the cabinet so the parts sit in to a two piece with a bass bin and separate horn assembly. The proposed bass bin would be modeled after the Cornwall cabinet with 5.8 CF a 9.25 shelf and 50 CI open area for the rectangular ports. So before I embark on this I want to know it is a worth while project and not just another attempt by someone doomed to less making less than what I have right now. I would like to hear from those who have actually done this and have had the capability of both to compare side by side.
Please keep in mind I am not throwing money into super high dollar crossovers. I am satisfied with the Crites Sonicap kit I installed in my La Scalas AA crossover. Maybe it is ignorance since I have not heard anything with these high dollar deals in them but at the age of 63 with less than best hearing I am not so sure it matters. Perhaps it is best to strive for very good I can enjoy as compared to some "special" audiophile type doo dah I can't hear the difference in anyway. The Alk Cornscla Universal does not fall into the overpriced category for me by the way if using it really does make a difference.
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In the for what it is worth category. I stopped in to pay Marcus a visit during a recent trip to Indy. He is a one man show engrossed in his favorite hobby which is Klipsch Klipsch Klipsch. Everywhere in his house. I can't speak for him nor am I trying to put words in his mouth but don't take his postings here to sell to be the limit of his interest. I can assure you he is a Klipsch fan just not as social perhaps as many here. It is a compliment in a way since where else best to sell what you do not need but treasure in the hopes it will go to another Klipsch fan.
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It was a good score since I paid $160 for all four. I could afford to experiment with the Eminence replacement speakers and not worry about hurting future resale value because they were not Klipsch pure. I find I like working on speakers but once done doing that they have to go somewhere. I recently bought a pair of KP-301's and as much as I hate to say it these 260's sound better. It makes me wonder just how badly degraded the caps in my 301's and 250's really are for surely these 260's were not designed to be superior to those. The 301's were supposed to be by all I read commercial Chorus speakers which I really like. These 301's were well taken care of by someone who knows how so the only thing I can figure out is caps. The replacement ones are on the way.
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Bought four beat up KP-260's recently.They had been exposed to water with crud down into the coil area on the woofers and the metal on the horn drivers corroded. Three crossovers had resistors get so hot the boards were scorched and one had the resistors fried. Another had a capacitor melted into a cute little puddle. Now the amazing thing is they all still played and sounded half way decent. I sent the crossovers off to Crites figuring there could be other problems too and I don't have equipment or skills to check crossovers out.
All four woofers were no good and I decided to use Eminence Delta Pro 12A in two as recommended elsewhere and also try the Delta Pro 12-450-A. At $109 and $125 each they beat the heck out of $194 Klipsch wanted for KP-42's and all are made by Eminence I believe.
They sound really nice today after all the pieces to the puzzle are assembled. I was thinking they would be like KP-250's but they are far superior to the ones I have had. The Delta Pro 12-450-A's specs dig a little deeper with 44HZ to 4KHZ compared to the 12A at 52HZ to 4.5KHZ. I could not tell by ear much difference between them but the bass in both is very nice and the high notes are very defined also. Placing them in front of the La Scalas it has better perceived separation in my shop environment than the La Scalas do.
Anyone have a chance to do a direct comparison between KP-201's and KP-260's? Curious to know how they stack up since the 201's have such a reputation.
These replacement speakers are slightly larger than the KP-42's were and will require some judicious die grinder work.
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OK why use those big honking caps? I am going a different route and just ordered some Erse Pulse X caps that claim to have good specs and have good reviews on other sites. WAAY cheaper than Sonicaps and I am going to find out if that matters. I hear both sides with some recommending Dayton caps from Parts Express for instance but they are huge. I like the size of the Sonicaps. It is hard to know sometimes what advice to trust and I tend to lean towards the opinion of people who get their hands dirty doing things over those who seem to like to have bragging rights.
I am finding out those old caps have collector value and it is possible I could send these off to Crites, have him redo them and then test the old caps. If they are OK they can sell for as much as the crossover rework would cost.
These were also from a K-horn.
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I am sure these are as built. There is an age patina that would be hard to do on purpose for no good reason. Your AA is like the ones I have seen so far. How did yours get so rusty, were they stored outside for a time?
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I have read about Paul Klipsch using WW2 surplus components before in speakers because they were cheap and worked. So the story goes and I have no idea if the story is true but these sure would indicate it might be. Are these worth rebuilding or should they be preserved for posterity by a collector? I had bought these to use in a Cornscala but after further digging I am probably going to use ALK's universal crossover for that.
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I would sure like to know where you guys see all these cheap Chorus's. I have been watching and nothing anywhere within hundreds of miles from Nashville for anything even remotely close to that for about a year now. Forte's are selling for $650 around here in a heart beat. If you are including the whole United States that might be true but then the 1000 to 1400 mile round trip kind of removes the value of that "cheap" price. I would like to buy some from you if you have any for sale at the average price
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Before you ever go to look at another speaker do this. I have and it works very well. Go buy a $38 lepai amp from Parts Express. Add to that a small AC inverter that plugs into your vehicle power point or cigarette lighter. Next time someone says they can't play them you just hook up the Lepai from your vehicle and have enough power to check things out for big problems like drivers being fried. $100 spent will prevent anyone from ever hiding behind I cant play them from ever happening to you again. A wall outlet works just fine too and it has a USB port so load your flash drive with test music and have at it.
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They sold for that too in four days.
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THANKS John, it was the physics of the situation I was wondering about and you have explained it.
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Need to get one maybe two of these.
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Moray let me try to explain it like this. A direct smaller connection will have a smaller volume of air to deal with. Air is compressible and therefore my thought is larger volume with the whole speaker interior to cushion the effect of sound waves, reducing compression so to speak, would not yield the same compressive transfer of energy to the passive as a controlled direct square pipe between the two would. The answer is something not addressed yet and it is will this work and does it make sense or no it will not work and here is why. Yes I get the idea of volume for bass but is there a way around that is the question I am trying to ask. I am figuring to some degree sound is like air. Blow it into a box and yes it will hit the other side and every other part to. I blow that air into a sealed chamber between two points it goes from point A to point B and does not fool around with dissipating its energy. I don't know how to explain what I mean better than that.
Listening to how directional the sound output from my La Scalas are tells me that sound can be directed and channeled. Horn designs have an angle of sound coverage. So to my mind without technical training in this field shape can improve sound wave transmission.
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I have a re-coned K-1001-K Quartet woofer and a re-cone kit for the same. I am tired of fooling around with trying to sell it on EBay and figure if I am going to give it away it should be done here. So pick up the price of shipping and I will send these to the first respondent. Thus ends my sojourn into the world of re-coning.
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I had a quote recently for K-42 and they were $194 each plus shipping. I want to say a number I heard recently for Klipsch direct k-43 was around $224.00. I ended up buying Eminence woofers recommended elsewhere on the forum as a replacement for the K42 for $124.00.
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OK maybe sealed chamber would be better as a description. I can still take and recreate the volume of the, lets say a Forte, and make the cubic feet inside the chamber the same as the open area inside the Forte. What my question really is does a a contained "stiff" column of air offer any improvement over a box with air which would I assume act to some degree as a shock absorber and be subject to potential interference from mid range sound waves freely roaming in the same area?
That is an interesting site John. Do you suppose that plastic tubes would be a violation of sonic purity construction methods
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OK a picture is worth a thousand words and here is what I mean. A sealed chamber from front to back and side to side. Besides adding stiffness does this accomplish anything? I ponder improvements and recognize the genius of Klipsch. Someone will come up with the exact perfect acoustic variables some day I suppose but are we there now? I go back to everything is a compromise in manufacturing and what we can do today as individuals does not depend on some CPA penny squeezer cutting corners. I am interested in utilitarian solutions and wonder if this plenum idea would work.
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Hi John,
JAMS? When I last spoke to him he was moving, too busy and recommended the guy who is sitting on my money and K-42 core. Since re-coning is turning out to be such a chore and results not optimal I have ordered two sets of Eminence woofers. By the time the dust settles I have something right away, price is at worst no higher and in this case cheaper. Mailing two ways and then paying the East Nashville dude would end up running me about $135.00 and the new Eminence I went with is $125.00 each. I would prefer getting the original K-42's re-coned but I have no good answer yet.
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Catching up and these replies are not encouraging. If I am not going to get factory specs with the re-cone kit I might as well buy new Eminence woofers. By the time I pay the re-cone dude in Nashville for incorrect parts I am over two thirds of the way to new. Actually in the case of 15" K33 woofer replacements I am money ahead by buying direct from Eminence. Surely there is a better answer.
Capacitor question
in Technical/Restorations
Posted
I have a question in regards to capacitance. On a KP-480 crossover there are two 100uf and a 1uf soldered together in parallel. Now with the tolerance at best at 5% why so particular on 201 total uf when a 5% tolerance goes way past the 1uf capacitor? Can I just use two 100 uf caps and forget the 1 uf cap? Adding to this I can get a 10% tolerance 200 uf cap and just use one. I see on a Crites AL-3 the use of two 68 uf caps in parallel and they are 10% tolerance caps from Parts Express ( or at least the same thing is sold there ) so what is the best route to go here?