mopardave
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On 4/18/2024 at 5:51 AM, derrickdj1 said:
I started my tube journey over 10 years ago with a hybird Yaqin 2100 amp with tube preamp and SS rear. Excellent amp along with several of the EL 34 amps which are exceptional for the money. I have never owned an American tube amp but, have owed several Mc Intosh amps, SS for comparison. Fast pace and to 2024, I am on a 3rd tube amp, lol. Not funny, lol. I tried the OldChen K3 Kt88 twice with the same transformer failure. More on that later if interest. China Hi Fi refunded my money with no problems.
This brings up the Willisenton R8 KT 88 amp. It is a moderate priced amp and a back breaker going on 60 lbs. The topic is tube rolling and this is the easiest amp that I have ever had that you can audibly hear a change with multiple tubes, preamp and power. The bias adjustment take about 10 second for a power tube and not needed for the preamp tubes. Preamp tubes for the amp are Willisenton 6sN7x3 , PS Vane Fever CV 181z, Shuguang Black Treasure CV181z, and Willisenton 6SL7. The rolling power tubes were the Shuguang Black Treasure KT 88 , Willisenton KT 88, PSVane KT88, Tel Funkenl Black Diamond EL 34, and an old quad pair of Sevlanta 6550 C winged quad on a trade for my NOS Tung Sung EL 34 tubes.
Well, I am very impressed with this amp and it's sound. The tubes can make or brake a system. This amp has very noticeable changes in tube rolling and can be transformed by tube rolling. I did all my listening in triode mode using just a few watts. I am not going to bash stock tubes because they most likely come from the same factories and are not inherently bad.
The change of the Power tubes changed the bass and lower midrange. Where as, the preamp tubes influenced the midrange in this particular Kt 88 amp. The point of the post is the fun with rolling, not the cost, lol. and the quickness for comparison. These topic are always so biase and less than scientific. because it took 20 min. for the tubes to warm. This thread is not that serious. What's your take? I did find some nice combo with my current tubes without spending more money. The old motto is nothing exceeds like excess!
See, I did not tell you about about magic tubes, the must have amp, system . or made SS comparison. Just roll with it.🥴 Rolling is not like steak or lobster, it is more like skirt steak vs t bone?
Try the cv181 Horizon. I think you might like them and for the unbelievable low price they are worth trying.
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4 hours ago, derrickdj1 said:
The KLF 30 is/was an excellent speaker. Something similar should shine with tube amp. My Focal Aria's are 91.5 db. sensitivity but, even with my Oldchen amp, most of the time I am under 5 watts which is blasting. Build a good XO for your speaker and no need for multiple amps. After all, we are in an arena of distortion and not necessarily looking for a flat frequency response.
4 hours ago, derrickdj1 said:The KLF 30 is/was an excellent speaker. Something similar should shine with tube amp. My Focal Aria's are 91.5 db. sensitivity but, even with my Oldchen amp, most of the time I am under 5 watts which is blasting. Build a good XO for your speaker and no need for multiple amps. After all, we are in an arena of distortion and not necessarily looking for a flat frequency response.
I hope so. Claude modeled the cabinet with his software, and picked the best matching Celestion woofers. I have a universal crossover from Al i am modifying with help from THD+N. Should be pretty cool.
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12 hours ago, KT88 said:
Even if it is a bit much from me at once, I would like to contribute something to another topic that plays a role in this thread.
In my opinion, Roy's development work has brought the Heritage series back into the limelight, both in the USA and in Germany. This is very good for the enthusiasts who enjoy and appreciate these loudspeakers, it is very important for the people in Hope who are very motivated to develop and build these loudspeakers by hand. A passion!
It is also such an important building block for branding. Everyone who buys The Fives emotionally acquires a small piece of a Klipschorn. That is priceless. Even if the Heritage series only accounts for a maximum of 5% of total sales, it is so important for the Klipsch brand's appeal. I hope that the new owners understand that. Even if you could say quite rationally that many buyers of price-conscious Klipsch products should not know the Heritage series, it is, you could say, the collective unconscious that resonates. I'm not saying this as an esotericist but as a brand consultant. I often experience this phenomenon that it is sometimes immaterial brand values that are important. Even if not everyone knows the top models, it is important that they exist. They create desire. Many young people dream of a BMW M3 (in this case everyone is in the know). But because they can't afford it yet, they stick with the brand and buy a smaller engine. Jaguar didn't want to have such an icon as an M3. The middle class only had boring four-cylinder engines. The desire was missing. Nobody wanted these cars from young people. Today, Jaguar is dead and is currently burying itself. What I mean it is really important for the whole brand of Klipsch to keep the Heritage series in business.
On the other hand, the Klipsch Heritage series is quite material, it is produced and should be successful in the market within its means. And that, I believe, could continue to be the case. Of course, not many flagships like the HJ are sold, but the Heresy and CW4 are sold a lot more. The price for these speakers still seems fair to me. But it should stay that way. Sometimes new owners go overboard in this respect to the detriment of the brand.
An example, the English sports cars from Morgan, many points of contact with the Heritage series from Klipsch. 800 cars a year handcrafted. Peter Morgan himself used to say that only the owner makes it “his” Morgan. So it was normal that many people installed better springs or shock absorbers etc. It was almost normal, even on new cars. You never had to do that with Klipsch, they were always good from the factory, but this proximity to DIY is comparable, at least with today's older Klipsch speakers. Until 10 years ago, these fantastic Morgan were like time machines, built on a ladder frame of steel with wood and aluminum, relatively affordable. You bought the entry-level model, the 4/4, which in my opinion is almost the best Morgan for various reasons, for a relatively affordable 45000€. And almost no depreciation over many years. In the 70s and 80s you had to wait seven! years for your pre-ordered Morgan until you finally got it.
Three or four years ago, the third-generation family business was sold to a major Italian investor “Investindustrial”. For them, Morgan is just a “hobby”. I don't want to go into the pros and cons of the sale, perhaps the family wouldn't have been able to afford the expenses for new vehicle regulations etc. Just my point, the traditional Morgan has been discontinued. There is a new aluminum chassis that Lotus has developed for Morgan. There are only two BMW engines left. And now my point. The cheapest car with a little bit of extra equipment now costs about €90,000 at least, the more powerful car costs from €140,000. The buyers are staying away, the old target group can absolutely no longer afford it. Today, a used car costs only half as much after two years (good for buyers), but the cars are piling up at the dealerships. Peter Morgan's old philosophy of always building less than people want has been lost. Just a warning, a small Heritage Heresy must remain affordable for many people. There are enough examples of new owners wanting to make the “brand” more and more expensive. Then important broader groups of buyers drop out. That shouldn't happen with Klipsch Heritage.
Another point that obviously has to do with Klipsch's brand essence. The old speakers were so robust and durable but also somehow a bit “raw”. Both seem to have contributed to the fact that so much of the speakers have either been restored or changed, renewed or “improved” when the speakers are old. The speakers especially the big old ones like Khorn, LS etc have such an “inviting accessibility” for tinkerers and DIY types. It's part of the brand essence. Nobody then or now would dare to modify or repair a Quad electrostatic themselves. Or boutique live style brands like Sonus Faber, hardly anyone would tinker with them. I can well understand that Klipsch wants to move away from this topic of modification with the Heritage series, but there are still so many old loudspeakers, which is proof of quality. Hardly anyone would fiddle with their AK6, but I restored my 1973 Khorns with original parts. It's fate when the new speakers are very similar in essence to the decades old ones. If heritage speakers looked completely different today, they would no longer be heritage speakers, which would also be a shame, but as a company you wouldn't have the issue of competition with products from your own company. It is not much different with Gibson. For this reason, I can understand very well from Klipsch's point of view that the modifications with third-party parts are not desirable to discuss in the Forum. Even if I myself am a supporter of the originality of the old Klipsch speakers and even if some people are misled by modifications, it must be allowed to say that a vintage Klipsch can become a competitor to a new Heritage with manageable effort if someone does it right. But I don't see any danger for Klipsch because there are mostly buyers who want to have something new as their pride and joy if they can afford it. The hobbyists are a totally different target group that should also be appreciated. Some of them can never afford a new Khorn, but they enjoy an old one. Then let them tune it to their personal taste if they want to. Not a threat for the brand. On the contrary, because it makes the brand even livelier and stronger. Here, the past is updated with the joy of the cause. This is very positive emotionally for the Klipsch brand and it should not be ignored or stopped, even if, as I said, this forum is perhaps not the place for these discussions. It is positive and not negative. It is invaluable for the Porsche brand what they are doing in the vintage scene as a manufacturer with their sub-brand Porsche Classic. They know how important that is to the brand as a whole. Klipsch could similarly offer a basic to high-end restoration in Hope for people who can afford different levels, but mostly still cheaper than a brand new one.
Anyway, let's hope for the best. Klipsch knows what they need to do much better than me, who is just a fan of many. I am also confident that the new owners will take a very serious look at Klipsch and not throw the baby out with the bathwater. They will be very aware of what has just happened to B&W, Marantz etc. And they won't want to repeat it with Klipsch.
Agree with much of what was said here. Very well put.
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I have a Klipsch like speaker i am building. Similar to the KLF-30, but with a larger cabinet and twin 15's/per cabinet. Will be using Celesion 15's, PRV2200 mid with the 18x10 horn and DE10 with the Mahl horns. I have all the components and the lumber, just need to find time to get a good start. THD+N is helping with the crossover. I built a pair of vertical Cornwalls 20+ years ago, now CornScala and they sound fantastic with B&C drivers.
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On 12/27/2024 at 11:59 AM, Zen Traveler said:
Ha! Fwiw, I think the question posed is pertinent, but that wouldn't be the new owner's response unless they ONLY care about Heritage Speakers...Heck, I'm still wondering if this forum doesn't go silently to the wasteside as they cut costs given how many other online venues there are.
I used to come here for the mods section as i am a Klipsch owner and hobbiest, but once they frowned on making/talking about mods on Klipsch speakers most of us moved to AudioKarma. I only drop in here now to read the classified or tube section. I felt kinda pushed out so i left. I think they just wanted us to talk about how good their over priced speakers sound. Pertaining to my earlier post, I just read where Stellantis Chrysler is going to cut prices by 35% on old inventory. Maybe Klipsch should follow along here. If Barra doesnt get off the EV train(100% EV by2035) and Ford off raising prices into 2025, they will be left behind. Many including myself cant afford the new pricing on new vehicles. They are just simply gouging.
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5 hours ago, derrickdj1 said:
This is not the R800 I 845 but, shows the build quality of the r8. Checkout the parts, wiring, etc. This Jim guy knows his stuff and ran Valves and More and online tube store.
Yes, they do seem to be well built. You cant post stuff like that on AudioKarma. You will get a beating for buying Chinese amps, but at the same time they talk highly of amps like Primeluna, Line Magnetic, which are Chinese amps as well. I currently own the Willsenton R300 and i love it. I barrowed a friends Cary Insperation and rolled many different tubes thru it including 6L6 kt88, kt120, kt150 and a few others all while ABABABA ing the r300 to the Cary. The Willsenton 300B amp was better to my ear until i got to the kt150 tube. The Cary with the kt150 was the clear winner, but the Willsenton beat out all the other tubes that were run thru the Cary. I do use GL 300B and nos pre and rec tubes in the Willsenton. I have performed some mods on this amp including MuDorf caps and Hasimoto output transformers. The output transformers made no difference to my ear. Willsentons are mostly point to point.
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On 12/26/2024 at 10:11 PM, derrickdj1 said:
Hi Dave, I don't own the R800 I 845 amp but do own the R8. The China amps get a lot of so called modifications. Look at the video, the amp is well built, quality components and craftsmanship that will cost you triple if it was American made. Yes, you can replace some caps or do a few other things but, the amp already functions at a high level and will the changes be noticeable. I can't imagine any huge gains to be had. I have thrown everything possible at the R8 without a blink from the circuits. I have used 7N7, 7F7 12au7, 12ax7, 6gu7, El 34 to KT 90.
I have owned five different amps from China HiFi, they make good amps. The Chinese continued to make and use tube gear after the transitor ear dominated the late 20th century. I would do nothing and get some nice tubes and enjoy.
think i might do just that. thanks
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22 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:
Ha! Speaking of Bullshit--Remember when we used to get away with.....oh, never mind. Let's hope the new owners find value in the Klipsch Forum for the next 20 years. Lol.
Lets hope. Wish things were the way they used to be so many years ago, but they're not and we have to keep going forward with whatever makes us happy in our own way. There is always more than one way to skin a cat, right?
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13 minutes ago, mikebse2a3 said:
You choose your path and others need to choose theirs no question about that in my mind but we all pay a price for those paths taken and also reap the rewards.
So in my family’s case money was never the main priority it was more about being together and working for a decent living while doing so. During our business years we were blessed to have Mom with us for 9 years until she unexpectedly and suddenly pass away at the young age of 42 and as tough as it was my Dad, Brother and myself continued on with the business then after 22 years together with all the good and rough years we finally decided to close the doors and during this time Dad took ill and passed within a couple of months. Now my brother has been gone 10 years and let me tell you those years of having our business together are precious to me and any money that I could have made working for someone else couldn’t provide me with the memories that mean the world to me today. Life happens in the blink of an eye and for me it’s the sharing and memories with my family that I hold valuable and not any money/things that I could have made somewhere else. Those business years of sacrificing and uncertainty with no guarantee were filled with a shared love of family and happiness as well so many may not understand and think we were foolish but I know better from experience.
miketn
Thats awesome and glad you had the tight family business experience. Not all do.
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20 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:
What!!! 😮 NO ONE is dreaming about having 26k, 36k, and especially not 50k speakers today unless they are rappers or old school keep-up-with-the-Joneses, audiophiles! 😎
I used to dream of having new Khorns, but it was only a dream. I would love to buy a Klipsch product, but way out there now for me.
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23 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:
Wait...Y'all aren't gonna turn this into one of those Dunning-Kruger discussions are Ya? 😁
Actually, I don't know and already stated a possible solution to Keep Hope Alive, but I am only a vocal consumer and sharing thoughts over morning coffee....My guess is if the new CEO has KHorns there is a better chance of speakers being made than if they are looking at the bottom line. Like others have mentioned, Healthcare costs for employees, let alone 40 hr a week wages is as much of a concern as cutting component expenses to have a viable product--a couple of nice, big speakers is no longer as attractive as a cheaper/viable options to receive sound.
That alone is north of $300,000/yr. Electricity, liability insurance, taxes, materials etc. A lot of money for sure.
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4 minutes ago, Woofers and Tweeters said:
And the ones who work hard, do without, eat Ramen noodles, and reinvest in the company are charging too much money?
This is one of those "it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool" times.Not all.
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3 minutes ago, Woofers and Tweeters said:
Nope, not you. You'd never do that, would you?
How many people on here are buying $26,000-$36,000 Klipsch speakers? Most are only dreaming about it and thats all it will ever be at this point. Those speakers are catered to the rich, but the rich are buying $50,000 speakers. So where does that leave Klipsch with Heritage? With the middle class, but the middle class cant afford to buy them in numbers. So now what? I'm not sitting still and just dreaming about. I am building my own with the quality wood and components. I will never take a loan for a pair of any speaker.
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17 minutes ago, mikebse2a3 said:
There are the doers who chase the dream and then there are those who only want to stand on the sides criticizing and yelling doom and gloom and never actually tried for their dream.
So do you tell your friend who has his own business/dream that he is a fool and should give up and that he should follow your path because you definitely seem to be full of “inexperienced” knowledge and total understanding based on never actually opening/operating a business..?
I cant and wont ever tell others what they should do, but i know i will never open a business and eat ramen for the first 5yrs or so while i reinvest everything back into the business with the earnings and without a guarantee it will survive.
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15 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:
Imo, you are looking at it backwards. Given the reason there is new ownership we have to look at it from their perspective...Why and who actually buys speakers for the house? With SO MUCH folks can spend their money on how much is going for an old style stereo rig? 🤔
You mentioned Klipsch charging $10,000 for a speaker you are designing which evidently would compete with the RF-7s which are made currently in Hope--I gather the new ones sell for less than 4k a pair, but again, who is gonna pay that price, you could buy a (couple) of decent HT packages or slim Sound bar for less.
Again, Klipsch the company will live on. The people you talk about "dying a slow death," aren't the ones who sold (or bought) the company, but the ones Trey and others are talking about.
Ok, so what would you say is the solution?
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3 minutes ago, Woofers and Tweeters said:
This forum and the company thrived for more than 20 years with what you're calling bull on here.
Evidence shows that it didn't work out as the wise thing to do.
Due to what happened, members who gave money and speakers to the museum stopped giving and left. Members who were on here spoke highly of this place and Klipsch in general and those feelings changed, and for a good reason.You are absolutely correct. The Heritage line was still within reach of most Klipsch loyalist thru those years. Not now with Cornwalls at $6600/pr, Khorns at $26,000/pr, Jubilee at $36,000/pr. Not gonna sell many speakers like that.
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8 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:
Imo, you are looking at it backwards. Given the reason there is new ownership we have to look at it from their perspective...Why and who actually buys speakers for the house? With SO MUCH folks can spend their money on how much is going for an old style stereo rig? 🤔
You mentioned Klipsch charging $10,000 for a speaker you are designing which evidently would compete with the RF-7s which are made currently in Hope--I gather the new ones sell for less than 4k a pair, but again, who is gonna pay that price, you could buy a (couple) of decent HT packages or slim Sound bar for less.
Again, Klipsch the company will live on. The people you talk about "dying a slow death," aren't the ones who sold (or bought) the company, but the ones Trey and others are talking about.
What i am building will simply blow away a Cornwall, let alone an RF7. I'm pretty sure Klipsch would price these out at close to $10,000.
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13 minutes ago, Woofers and Tweeters said:
IIRC, the minimum wage in 1985 was ~ $3 per hr. From what you have typed in this thread, I can see why you're not making 3x that wage.
If you need to know, i was making $15.00/hr at General Motors and i am now making $31.00/hr driving a truck.
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8 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said:
I love it when people/critics who have no idea of what it cost to maintain a particular long term business, to keep the doors open, to provide jobs with benefits/insurance, to maintain engineering research and development of new products, advertising cost, support the products during and after warranty, to offer updates when possible to older models, etc….. but have never walked in the shoes of whom they would criticize and judge.
Are there greedy price gouging companies..? Of course and it can make us consumers very jaded and doubting but we need to be careful not to judge the needs of a company to survive without fully understanding their overhead expenses and the challenges they face as times change.
I speak from the perspective of having been part of a family business that survived for over 20 years in the electronics sales and service industry and as times changed and the cost of keeping the doors open while trying to pay a descent wage with very modest benefits (and don’t even think about even being able to offer anything more than the most basic insurance). Eventually it became unsustainable and believe me we sacrificed for many years but it was beyond our control due to the changes in electronics reliability, throw away mentality due to low cost manufacturing and unfair trade practices that allowed unfair foreign competition practices among many other factors and the result was to watch all the businesses like ours close and the distributors that supplied us close and the manufacturers had to merge/sale or close down.
So one of the most frustrating things for me was to have people who would come to our business and buy parts from me and basically use my inventory and try to use my experience/knowledge to do their “businesses from their homes”. Then there were the self-believing experts who looked from the outside at our business and say we were ridiculously pricing our goods and services all while we were barely keeping the doors open to survive for better times that never came.
So @mopardave just keep looking from the outside and criticizing Klipsch “since you obviously have all the answers” and please try to remember their are real people there just trying to survive in these times for better times which I truly hope happens for them.
miketn
Your absolutely correct, i am looking in from the outside, but i have looked into opening a business and learned enough to not do it. I found i can save the headache and live comfortable just punching a clock and going home. I have a friend that runs a business building $1800-$2500 racing carburetors. He makes enough to keep the doors open and have a little pocket money. Not my cup of tea, so i do have an idea what running a business can involve, although never did it for good reason. I certainly do not have Klipsch's numbers, but they made it this far with a quality product (Heritage line), that most middle class could afford. So if there supply costs and overhead is that much now to lessen the quality and charge more pushing the product so far away from the average consumer, then maybe they should close the doors, walk away. Its never good to die a slow death.
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30 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:
Look at the brightside--TV prices are WAY down and picture quality isn't comparable to 1985...Otoh, subwoofers help keep the size of other speakers down and I'd rather have RF-7s instead of Heresies.
{NOTE: I paid $1350 for RF-7s in 2003. I'm listening to them right now with the lower end sent to dual RSW subs. 😁}
Agree, i am currently building something similar to a Klipsch product(klf30) , I will call them KLF30 plus. They will use twin Celestion 15's with the 18x10 zxpc horns with prv2200 for mids and the mahl horns with B&C tweets. I will have 1/3 or less expense in these if Klipsch were producing and selling them. They would probably ask $10,000 for a pair of these and use MDF. I am using Birch laminated 3/4 ply.
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3 hours ago, JohnA said:
Interesting. But I bought Heresy IVs because they sounded so much cleaner and more coherent than the Heresies I had. Heritage has always been expensive, but the new ones, that I've heard, are worth the extra cost over the older ones.
Thats because the components and horns are better, kinda like what most of us like to do as a hobby(Klipsch hobby). Use the old design Heritage and put newer components in them and save a ton over the brand new over priced stuff they now sell. I have not done the numbers, but in 1985 i paid $900 for a pair of Heresy's. What is the price now, maybe 3 times that. I dont make 3 times as much as i did in 1985 and inflation is much more today than it was then. Still think they are priced higher than they should be. Totally out of my range and im not a poor guy. I wish them the best.
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1 minute ago, mopardave said:
Anyone here own or modified the Willsenton r800i 845 amp. Really curious to the mods needed. I see some others adding resistors and switching caps on the other forums. Got some pics, but not much info on resistor or cap values and the owners are no help.
Work was performed by this guy. MFA, Scott Frankland, Wavestream Kinetics
would like to do the work myself.
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Anyone here own or modified the Willsenton r800i 845 amp. Really curious to the mods needed. I see some others adding resistors and switching caps on the other forums. Got some pics, but not much info on resistor or cap values and the owners are no help.
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7 hours ago, Deang said:
Been debating with myself all day whether to say something or not. Just not cool Dave. No company should have to sit and watch the bullshit that was going on here, on their company sponsored board. You have no idea how close we came to losing this place. If you want to blame someone, blame me. I’m the one that suggested to Roy to bring the hammer down and to change the direction of the modifications section. 2 years and people are still pissing and moaning about it. Get over it.I truly am sorry to see what has happened to them. Hoping the new company is good for them.
Preamp advice - New Cornwalls IVs w/ Tube Power Amp
in Talkin' Tubes
Posted
I bought a Mapletree pre amp 24 years ago and its still in use today with the same tubes it came with. They are not talked about much, but make a nice pre amp. Couple years ago i bought their phono pre amp. Its just as nice as the first one.