Dkfan9
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Posts posted by Dkfan9
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Very interesting thread. Ive got some thoughts but no time to get them all out currently. I do have a couple questions: you have FDW enabled on these graphs, how many cycles? And how different do your phase graphs look unsmoothed? Just pondering about the effect of room interactions.
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Well I did this sort of just for my own interest but others might find it interesting as well. Attached picture shows simulated R28F based solely on crossover parts (in black) overlaid with actual speaker impedance measured the other day (in yellow). Crossover parts list taken from here. VirtuixCAD2 used to create the overlay and sim the crossover, using 2 generic, flat 8 ohm drivers on LF and 1 generic, flat 8 ohm driver for HF.
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On 3/23/2019 at 6:07 AM, pzannucci said:
I wonder if you removed a binding strap and put a 1 or 2 ohm resistor in it's place, if that would solve the elevation of the tweeter. That would also be a way of effectively raising the crossover point of the woofer to the tweeter, a second issue though maybe not enough. Then you could take the grill off and not feel like you were being slapped around by the highs if your room isn't super damped.
Even better, do that on a sturdier cabinet with another few liters of volume. A giant slayer for slightly more than what Klipsch currently charges. The only thing you wouldn't have attacked in the criticism is the self damping of the hard cone driver. Sounds like a great project either way. Dynaudio look out.
That's an interesting idea. Seems like an easy DIY experiment for some owner here...
But after thinking about it my initial response bit more, I wonder what that crossover region looks like closer to 8' out (JA is measuring at ~4'). Possibly this is a case of the speakers being voiced to be flat at 8' or so out (seems like a typical enough listening distance for HT and stereo). If so, I would expect the crossover region to be flatter and the treble to shelve down a bit, though I'm not knowledgeable enough to say that's the case for sure and if so, how much the distance increase would affect FR. But I guess what I'm saying is that without a more comprehensive set of measurements, I might have been jumping the gun a little too quickly, especially at the crossover region.
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Very nice dispersion and decay plots. Biggest problem with the FR looks to be at the crossover, especially if the grille is left on, as JA notes that the grille takes about 1db off the elevated tweeter output from 3-8k, and increased on axis treble above 13k will be compensated by off axis rolloff. Looking at measurements for the two other Klipsch speakers Stereophile has reviewed, these look a lot more like Palladiums than RB-15s.
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Currently I'm using an Academy as center with P17B mains. When seated exactly in the sweet spot, i would take the P17Bs easily, although there is a slight loss of center vs stereo imaging but the fidelity increase is easily worth it. When moving slightly off axis to within 20 degress off axis, I prefer the system with the Academy due to the center image precision.
However, i also have a chair near the edge of my room, which ends up at almost exactly 30 degrees off axis. This is the spot where the center imaging precision and center vs stereo separation factors should be greatest, but im not at all happy with the Academy's performance from this seat. Vocal clarity is significantly reduced. I think this is mostly due to the large woofers in a horizontal MTM configuration causing lobing at this spot in the critical above 1000 hz range. Im not sure if the horns tight horizontal dispersion plays any role here, but since it's such a small horn im not sure how tight its directivity control is around the crossover into where it takes over.
Overall, if your seating stays within 20 degrees off axis, i think you will do fine with the Academy. If it goes to a wider angle, look into another option, but know that phantom center will trade the frequency response issues for imaging issues. Either way, your best bet would be to get a third Heresy as silversport and Ljk suggested--it will avoid the clarity compromises of horizontal MTMs, the imaging compromises of a phantom center, and 3 matched speakers across the front is 99% of the time the best option for sound quality.Now if only i had the money to pony up for a P27C or another P17B...
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It sounds like a wireless interference issue. The last time the wireless adapter worked without crackling issues, was it in the same room?
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I have the Rocketfish posted above. It worked very well for me. I'm not currently using it but I plan to use it the next time I need a living room surround setup.
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Do you have room for rear surrounds?
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12 hours ago, Dawson's Ridge said:
I believe the new Forte III was made for you. Includes new Tractrix midrange and according to the speaker designer "solid bass down to 38Hz". Double bass only goes to 41Hz. Not much, if at all, below that unless you listen to organ.
Or movies
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My 55EG9100 would fit perfectly on top of one of these, and I've been looking for a center for my Palladiums that fits my room...
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4 hours ago, Ski Bum said:
Original forte used an exponential similar (same?) to Heresy and CW. The forte II used a larger hybrid tractrix profile horn, which was also shared with the Chorus II and Quartet. It would be nice if the FIII had an even larger mid horn, one that would hold a pattern lower, and allow a lower woof-to-mid crossover frequency.
I was more wondering driver size, since that's specifically called out as larger. I can't seem to find that detail in spec sheets or reviews for FI/FII.
EDIT: Found it. 1.75" based on other K-53 mids.
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Since the midrange is larger on the Forte III... What is the midrange size on the original Forte/Forte II?
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1 minute ago, billybob said:
Do not know but would proceed with caution. Youthman may weigh into that idea.
Oh I'd certainly proceed with caution too.
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I assume somehow it's cheaper to make it non removable. And maybe they don't finish the baffle to save costs? I'm sure you could remove it... Just might not be so easy to put back on...
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The room is only a little bit less of a mess now...
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Make sure the center is pulled out to or preferably an inch over the edge of the cubby it's in. Angle it up as well. But try at least temporarily to turn off the center and see how it sounds. It will probably not sound ideal off axis (pulled to whichever side you're seated on), but it will probably sound more ideal than the current setup in the center position by pulling the tweeter up to ear level.
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2 hours ago, JJkizak said:
The Denon X4000 has a thing called "Restore" in the menu I believe that acts as a loudness control which I use in "low" around 80 to 85 db SPL. It "Pops" the bass pretty good in my horridly acoustic living room.
JJK
The Restore function is technically meant for low quality to medium quality steamed or compressed music (eg mp3). Low boosts the bass only I think, medium boosts more and also provides treble boost, and high boosts the highs more and possibly the bass more too. It can act essentially as a loudness control with a little more gradation than old school one button loudness controls.
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I was looking at this as a convenient center/tv stand between my P17Bs... I knew I couldn't get down there until after Christmas so I held off.
My Academy is fine (though I haven't tried the combo in this room yet--phantom center currently) but with my room setup wider than long and not wanting to get the TV up too high, it's going to be a bit in the way when I get a stand for it. Plus I'm always interested in trying a Heritage, especially an all horn unit. Well, if it doesn't work out for you, I might be an interested party in the future.
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Reference Premiere is more than just different branding from Ref II... Different horn and different voicing. I don't think timbre matching is as important as many do. I had an Academy center paired with R28F LR for over a year and was very happy with it. I could pick it out if I turned it off vs on or compared music in PLII vs stereo, but that was as much about soundstage as timbre. There were timbre differences, but they did not detract from the experience. If you want something to build around and want new in years to come, get Ref Premiere. I doubt the RF II will be around too much longer. On the other hand, some here have recommended Ref II centers with RP towers, so you could still go the upgrade route into RP down the line even with the Ref II center.
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9 hours ago, Chris A said:
If you see the SPL disturbances above 660 Hz on the horizontal off-axis plots (the vertical plot is of course showing the effects of having non-concentric drivers in the vertical axis) and do some calculations, you find that 1/2 wave at 660 Hz is about 10 inches--about the diameter of the copper woofer cones.
The higher frequencies that you go above that point, the more cancellations will occur due to the shorter and shorter wavelengths. This is the same reason why compression drivers have phase plugs and why most woofers are crossed below 600 Hz, because each woofer starts to introduce lobing polar patterns at their 1/2 wave frequency corresponding to the diameter of the woofer's active cone. The RF-7 II apparently crosses at 1.2 kHz.
Some loudspeaker manufacturers solve this problem in their two-way designs that cross above their 1/2-wavelength woofer cone diameter frequency by using woofer phase plugs, e.g.:
I would guess that Klipsch decided on the 1.2 kHz crossover point due to the inability of the HF compression driver to project lower frequencies or the limited mouth dimensions of its attached HF horn to control the polars below that frequency. It's a design tradeoff between the woofer's polars, the HF horn/compression driver polars (which should match in coverage angles at the crossover frequency), the frequency response on and off-axis for each driver, and the distortion levels that are present at the crossover frequency for each driver.
Chris
Ok, that makes sense. That FR graph is pretty interesting, with off axis having a large bump between 5500 and 10k relative to the on axis and surrounding frequencies. The drop above 10k isn't so surprising, but below 5.5k is interesting.
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58 minutes ago, DizRotus said:
No. I'm making the observation that cars are less than ideal listening environments, which might explain why compression is so common. I prefer music that is not mastered to sound best in a moving car.
My post was slightly tongue in cheek. I guess the broader point is most people don't care about musical fidelity very much and don't want to turn the volume up and down or deal with huge dynamic swings, so compression as a trend entirely makes sense.
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On 12/13/2016 at 2:28 PM, DizRotus said:
Yes. That was supposed to be the idea. Auratones were part of the opening salvoes in the loudness wars. Songs were mixed to compress the dynamic range so that they could be heard over the cheap speaker (no stereo in the beginning) and high noise floor in cars of that era.
Contrast that to listening to a hi-res Pono file in a modern car. I find myself turning it up during soft passages and then down during louder parts.
So you're expressing an implied preference for compression
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On 12/9/2016 at 9:17 AM, Chris A said:
It looks like there are at least three resonances: at about 2-3 kHz, and two resonances or diaphragm break-up modes between 10 and 20 kHz--as can be seen in the waterfall plot just below:
In addition, there is a relative peak in on-axis SPL at about 20 kHz (shown below in the SPL vs. off-axis plot), which is quite audible for males less than 40 years old (and all females):
It looks like the dual 10" woofers could each use a phase plug for frequencies above ~660 Hz, as shown in the 10 degree off-axis curve above. It would be nice to be able to run the crossover point down a little from its 1.2 kHz point in order to minimize lobing in the copper-alloy cladded cones' polar output. Also the dual woofers, even though arranged close together, will experience lobing in the vertical axis at about the same 660-2000 crossover interference band.
I'd also bet that you can hear sibilances due to the relative peak in response around 6 kHz, quite clearly.
Chris
The 10 degree off axis is vertical (the others are horizontal off axis), so that's showing the lobing (and the on axis might be showing a bit of lobing as well with the slight dip above 500), but why the need for phase plugs?
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I'm not sure this soundbar outputs signal for wireless surrounds.
Palladium P17B, Germany
in Alerts!
Posted
This is a great deal. I paid $1500 for mine gently used back in 2016. They sound great. Playing back horns in particular. A special midrange.