ODS123

My gripes about their sound quality aside I would find it impossible to turn my nose up at any of their catalog because of poor mixing, equalizing, etc. The Beatles went from the sugar sweet pop of Love Me Do to make-me-wanna break stuff Adrenalin of Helter Skelter in a few short years, and in each of these iterations they were unlike anything else before them. I’ll take their music any way I can get it.

I long ago gave up on the idea of a perfect speaker that makes all music sound great. No such speaker exists. This is why I advocate that people use preamp’s/integrated amplifiers/or AVR receivers that feature tone controls. When zeroed tone-controls do absolutely no audible harm to the signal, but can do all sorts of magic when listening to music like you described. In addition to tone-controls when listening to the Beatles I find myself often using the mono switch on my integrated amp as well. I find the mixing on some songs whereby all of the guitar comes from one speaker and all of the vocal from the other to be incredibly irritating. And certainly not at all lifelike. Viva la tone controls and mono switch!!!

I have a SL-1210GR. ..Bought it new 2 mos. ago. I absolutely love it. ..Wouldn't buy anything but a DD TT. ..Enjoy your G!

It might be worth your while reaching out to Klipsch and asking if they can custom build a pair of F3's in the CW3's Cherry finish. This can't be so unusual a request. ..As you suggested, what if someone was trying to match F3's to their CW3's for a HT setup?

Their finishes are different - at least based on what I saw. ..I listened and to both in Cherry. While I thought the F3 sounded great (though not as nice as the CW3's) I didn't care as much for the finish. I thought it kinda strange that they had different finishes though both were Cherry. ..Yes, the CW3 is deeper and a bit glossier. It's not that the F3's aren't attractive, they are. ..But definitely lighter and a bit duller. If I bought the F3's, I would probably chosen Black Ash or Walnut. CW3's in Cherry. Our built-in cabinet and floors are also Cherry and match the speakers quite closely. ..The Forte Cherry must be a different strain or something.

I'm not talking about measured differences b/w cables, I'm talking about repeatable identification b/w cables. No need to do measurements at all, just whether a person can say, when blinded from which is in use, whether it's A, B, or neither.

I haven't and wouldn't call you or anyone else that. ..I'm not suggesting it either. I'm trying to get people to acknowledge that audio engineering is a science and as such biases need to be recognized and controlled before we know whether something is really audible or not. WCD: ..my hearing has been tested and it is just fine thanks. Plus, I have a keen sense for musical nuance honed by a lifetime of listening to live and recorded music at reasonable sound levels.

I would love to know the details of your cable test. Specifically, how participants were kept from knowing if there were listening to the same or different cable (ie., blinded). And also to know if ALL cables compared were deemed suitable for the purpose by a competent engineer. I find claims of hearing even a "subtle" difference very hard to swallow.

Sorry, but that strikes me as totally incredible. wdecho, you seem nice enough and you're obviously entitled to believe what you want - that's fine of course. ..But I do once again urge any newbies lurking to give some long serious thought to that claim before upgrading beyond the cable that came with their component. Hey newbies, look at it this way: how can electricity come from a power plant 150 miles away, run through countless junction boxes, transformers, splices, wire of varying gauges - any of which might change on a daily basis - yet when we change the last three feet that runs from our power outlet to our amp, there is a noticeable change?? Yes, some claim to hear an improvement, but none of these claims take expectation bias (placebo effect) into account. Again, this is one of those things some will say, "hey, to each their own - try it and see if it works for you!" ..Well, isn't this a science!? Isn't electrical engineering founded on scientific principles?? It's not wine tasting. ..It's engineering. This can be empirically tested yet few audiophile seems interested.

Yes of course, tone controls are NOT essential - this is self-evident as many people enjoy listening to their music without them. But it's just as important to assert that they are NOT harmful to the signal when zero'd or taken out of the circuit with a Tone bypass switch.. That is a point worth restating for the impressionable newbies who may be reading this thread. I urge them to be very skeptical of people who claim they can hear a signal being damaged by the addition of tone controls to an otherwise well-engineered integrated amp or pre-amplifier. Just I've said three times now, if a signal is audibly damaged by just two tone controls then why isn't it rendered totally unrecognizable by the hundreds of sliders, pots, etc... that are in the signal path of the mixing boards used to record so much of the audiophile-approved music many hear enjoy.

Well engineered pre-amps and integrated amps that feature tone controls have noise levels that are well below our hearing threshold. My current (Mac MA6600) and previous integrated (NAD 375bee) and even my AVR (Onkyo TX NR1030) all have noise levels that are basically inaudible. So if I'm paying a price for each of these having tone controls, what would that price be??

This is of course true. ..The idea that the signal is AUDIBLY (!) degraded EVERY time the signal passes through a pot, slider, etc.. is not rooted in fact. As I said, if this were true then a signal would be rendered unrecognizable by a mixing board. ..And we know that is not the case. Perhaps EVERY audiophile favorite - including steely dan, patricia barber, Norah jones, etc. - was recorded using something like this. So I recommend any newbies who read this thread to be VERY suspicious of any audiophile who tells you to avoid Tone controls b/c - even when zero'd - they AUDIBLY damage the signal. This is simply nonsense.

Sorry but I didn't mean to imply this. ..In fact, I very much disagree. Using myself as an example, I will use my tone controls to make a wonderful song that is poorly recored listenable, whereas the ardent audiophile will often simply chose to never listen to that same song. ..which is a shame because there is TONS of great songs that are quite poorly recorded. Moreover, in my life I have seen the most extensive music collections - LP and CD - belonging to people w/ full-feature receivers/ integrateds rather than purist audiophiles w/ minimalist featureless gear.. Indeed, some of the latter have barely 50-60 albums. So no, I DON'T think tone controls are used by those who aren't serious about their music. ..In fact, I believe the converse is true.

Seeing and reading about all that stuff makes it clear that you an audio hobbyist who enjoys endlessly tinkering. ..Something that is definitely to be lauded and respected. But it's also predictable that you're probably not going to like ANY speaker right out of the box. ..And will almost certainly prefer dismantling and re-engineering a speaker to a simple turn of a treble knob. ..That is fine of course. But that doesn't mean an equalizer and/or tone-controls wouldn't be the far better way of tailoring music for the vast majority of audio, or make that music lovers.

I'm sorry but given your unshakeable belief in audiophile orthodoxy there may be no way to really help you but to suggest you buy different speakers. Or, alternatively, maybe you can disabuse yourself of your notion that tone controls somehow audibly (operative word here) damage the signal. I'll never understand how a signal is supposedly damaged by passing through a zero'd bass/treble control. You do realize that most of the recorded music you listen to has - since the note was played by the musician, to the time it's burned onto your cd - passed through dozens, maybe hundreds of signal breaks, including equalizer, attenuators, etc... If each such break incrementally reduced the signal that passed through, you'd think the signal would be rendered unrecognizable

Well said. Why not just get a pre-amp or integrated w/ tone controls??

Firstly, I’m not “nuts”, though thanks for your concern. ;( Secondly, “...meeting all requirements set forth by carriers” matters less than meeting the packaging expectations of the customer. You seem to be suggesting that meeting the minimum required by UPS is sufficient, yet we see persistent customer complaints here, and I’ve heard similar from my dealer, about the comparatively poor job Klipsch does in packaging their Heritage speakers. I have spent plenty of time on web forums for Paradigm, PSB, and Vandersteen and seldom, if ever, see complaints about shipping damage like I do here. So Is it just coincidence that these other brands also use much thicker boxes and more generous use of dense foam?

Um, they clearly do NOT meet shipping requirements. Have you not read all the previous posts comparing Klipsch Heritage packaging with others? ..As I said, my Vandersteen 3A Sigs and Paradigm Signature S8 v2 were comparable in size/wt. to my Cornwalls and the difference in how they were packaged was like night and day. Ditto my friends large floor-standing PSB's (do not recall model but they were > 70lbs each). And though I picked each of these up from my retailer, when I sold them I used UPS and neither had ANY damage upon arrival to the buyer. The cardboard boxes were considerably thicker, the corner spines much more robust (and made of dense foam w/ the Paradigms) AND each speaker was completely wrapped in very thick plastic. Yes, maybe using a better courier (read: NOT UPS) would help but almost all the damage I've seen pictured in this thread would NOT happen if Klipsch packaged their speakers the way these other premium brands do. So, no, Klipsch's current packaging most definitely DOES NOT meet shipping requirements. I recommend people exhibit zero tolerance for ANY damage they find on their newly arrived Heritage speakers. Eventually, angered retailers who have to deal w/ all these returns will bring enough pressure on Klipsch (who ultimately pays the cost) to spend another $30-40, or whatever, on better packaging.

Guarantee? No, but it certainly will cut wayyyyy down on the percentage that arrive damaged. My Paradigm S8's and Vandersteen 3A Sigs were both 100lb/ea speakers and both had far better packaging. Way more heavy foam and far thicker boxes. Either would have survived being shipped over seas. Heck, my Cornwalls weren't even fully covered in plastic. ..There was a single sheet that draped from the top to the bottom but definitely did NOT cover the whole speaker. Even if the boxes were never dinged, any moisture that worked it's way into the box would have damaged the finish. C'mon Klipsch, you're better than this.

I had to send a pair of Cornwall’s back because of shipping damage. Once again, I’m compelled to point out that as wonderful as their speakers are Klipschs shipping boxes are woefully under engineered. The box material is way too thin and the corner edge protection is minimal. After my first pair showed damage, I actually went to the distribution center of the dealer where I bought mine and looked over several pairs before picking one. Every single pair had dings and dents to the box; par for the course considering how big and how far they travel. So if it’s predictable the speakers will get knocked, then Klipsch really needs to improve their packaging These are the best speakers I’ve ever owned but they were the most poorly packaged of any speaker I have owned.

How much listening have you been doing and at what volumes?? I ask this b/c it's not unusual when someone auditions or buys new speakers to binge-listen, then - after hours of non-stop loud listening - express disappointment that they're suffering from of listening-fatigue. ..So it may not be the speakers fault. Contrary to what some audiophiles believe, accurate high-end audio speaker WILL cause listener fatigue when played for too long and too loud, even w/ perfectly recorded music featuring excellent musician. This is true of live music, so why shouldn't it be true w/ an accurate hifi system? Trumpets, violins, flutes, even guitars - just to name a few - will begin to grate if listened to for too long. IMHO, If your system NEVER causes fatigue then it's too rolled-off to ever faithfully reproduce live music. Added: ..Years ago I bought Vandersteen 3A Sigs and chose them over many other speakers b/c the NEVER seemed to grate on me no matter how long I listened and no matter how loud. ...The problem with them was that I found I listened to music a lot less b/c they NEVER really excited me. My Cornwalls are FAR more exciting; so much so that I listen to them all the time. ..And yes, occasionally, I have to either turn them a bit down or give my treble control a 1/4 turn to the left. ..Still, I'd chose them over EVERY speaker I've owned - some costing twice as much. .

Remember that these are matched pairs so just replacing the one speaker wouldn’t do. I had to send back my first two pairs of Cornwall‘s because of issues. Part of the problem is that Klipsch does not do a very good job of packaging their Heritage speakers. The cardboard is too thin and there is two little protective foam around the speakers.

Not to derail the thread, but that is NOT settled fact. And it seems PWK felt the same. You can do the same test w/ speaker cables that I proposed for biwiring. ..Try it and report back please.

Yes.. Of course. ..People are free to believe what they want. ..But people are also free to express a point of view that challenges others' believes.

Single vs. biwire is one audio belief that is soooo easy for each and every audiphile to test for themselves - just as I outlined in my post above - yet so few do it. ..Again, this hobby's distain for empirical evidence is maddening.