Ziggurat
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Posts posted by Ziggurat
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Woofer reveal..... Vitavox! Yeah baby!
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Interesting discussion. I have sent a message through to Roy asking for his comment as to whether or not I should worry about swapping the drivers out.
I have a source for Faital HF200 drivers if need be, which Bob Crites and others speak highly of. These would be an additional cost - money that could be spent elsewhere - but if I am seriously behind the 8-ball somehow with the 1132's it might be worth doing.
For what it is worth, right at this minute, the 1132's are a huge improvement on the Altec drivers, and are becoming less 'peaky' as break-in continues. I started off by having to dial them back quite a way on the L-Pads, but noticed last night they had mellowed quite a bit, and that I could bring the HF L-Pad back up a few degrees.
I had never expected that the 402's would sound so good running as a plug-in replacement for the Altec gear off a stock crossover network. This was only ever intended as a bit of fun, and to be able to have a preliminary listen. As it has turned out however, the sonic signature and presentation of the 402/1132 combo are such that I have experienced a VAST improvement in my listening experience. It amazes me that there is so much synergy happening, with zero input from me (other than L-Pad tweaks).
I wonder how much more the active setup with horn bass will bring? Exciting stuff.
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I will be running a Xilica DSP when it arrives. Until then, I am using an original Altec N1208 crossover, using the on board L-Pads, dialled back quite heavily to balance bass/hf response.
The 1332's are getting better with every hour of listening. I have no basis for comparison, so I have no idea if the K691's I was expecting would be better in some way.
The Klipsch rep here in NZ went out of his way to make this happen for me, and ordered what I asked him specifically to order, so I won't be going back to him to trouble him with this issue, which ultimately I am responsible for (as @Dave A says, it might not even be an issue!)
I am working through which bass bin to build. Enjoying the corner-placement at present which is swaying me back toward 2x MWM's per side, plus a sub later on.
I had a second non-hifi friend around last night who said to me he thought I needed to turn the 'center speaker' down because he couldn't hear the 'big thingees' on the sides. I had to smile - I don't have a centre speaker of course. He was gobsmacked by the phantom centre imaging, just as I am.
If someone has a pair of of TAD4002's or K691's they want to send to NZ for me, I will gladly offer a full report on the comparison 🙂
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1 hour ago, Bonzo said:
The greatest music video of all time, period.
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9 minutes ago, Coytee said:
Do you know what bass driver is in there?
No, not yet. The unit is due to arrive on a truck over the next couple of days - I will open it up and have a look then.
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Scored this beauty last night for next to nothing.... One only, but with a spare Altec 511b lens. Its one mixed up puppy - I wonder how it will sound?
Like I needed another project... Anyway, your ridicule is welcome 🤣
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So the 1332's have got about 36 hours on them, and the break-in process continues to yield surprises.
My young son particularly loves a track called "Wolf Totem" by The Hu (you need to give it a listen!) - he calls it Voldemort's music. Anyway, I cranked it right up last night and the 402's just kept giving - I was amazed how the soundstage grew and grew. Obviously the music was louder, but not unpleasantly so - mostly though it just seemed like we were in a giant room listening to live music. The 402's totally transported us.
After 10 minutes of listening at high volumes, I went back to critical listening. The compression drivers had relaxed even further and things were sounding amazing. I made some further adjustments to the L-Pads on the Altec crossovers - lowering the mid and high frequency energy considerably.
What I am starting to hear from these is a type of sound that is beyond any reference point I've previously used. Despite the Altec 19 bass bins not really keeping up, the sound is phenomenal. Open, layered, clean, fast, detailed, real, scaled. I've had KHorns and the 19's, plus a number of more traditional speakers, I've worked in the hifi industry and had the opportunity to listen to many supposedly amazing systems, but I've never experienced the likes of what I have lurking in my loungeroom now.
A tip of the hat to Altec for their amazing crossover is fair too.
I was thinking about the price I paid for the horns - not cheap - but if someone produced (say) a cable or a power conditioner that made the same quantum leap in performance as I've seen over the last few days, for the same money, they would be millionaires over night.
These things are AWESOME. Now for some horn bins.... 🙂
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7 hours ago, parlophone1 said:
Congratulations.
I suspect the HF drivers will behave a bit better after some houres of playing. At least few poeple reported such behaviour with new drivers, so this might be the case here.
How long have you been waiting for horns to arrive?
Yes, I am sure they will break in - I noticed an improvement over the course of the evening.
I had been waiting approximately 8 weeks for them to arrive. I was quite nervous that they would be damaged or lost - quite a large investment in the scheme of things for me - in fact, the most expensive audio kit I have purchased. Such is the faith y'all have instilled in me regarding their performance!
6 hours ago, Dave A said:The 1132's ARE the current two way system drivers and if you look at the Cinema line you will see that. I have 1132's on 402's for my two way system and they are stellar performers. You are going to have to go the electronic crossover DSP bi-amp route to make them really sing though. Those are most definitely not old stock.
I have a Xilica on the way - so that will really kick the journey off. I had spent a lot of time considering passive vs. active for these. In the end, the Xilica gives me the potential to try different cabinet designs - 'future-proofing' if I need to downsize, move houses, whatever. I could do anything from a large horn setup to something like Chris's MEH horns, should the situation/whim dictate.
My current favorite design for the LF is the Decware Imperial - which fits nicely in my room (!) and has the added advantage of being compatible (temporarily at least) with the Altec 19 416 drivers....
Ultimately, I am going to let this be a project that changes and develops organically along the way - I want for the gear to steer me. I knew I wanted 402's so that is the start-point. I have a lot to learn about sound, active xo's, room acoustics etc.
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20 minutes ago, Coytee said:
Congrats on your acquisition (and patience!)
The 1132 doesn't mean they're old stock.... what I'm guessing it means is either the wrong SKU (part number) was ordered or, the wrong one was shipped. As I understand, Klipsch has a unique SKU number for the K402/K691 assenbly.
The 1132 IS used in a commercial 2-way (as I understand) but for residential use, the K691 is WAY more sufficient and might go higher.
So unless I miss my guess.....how's it feel to be the first person in NZ to have a pair!!
Oh, that is interesting. Man it is hard to work this stuff out.. I thought I was on the right track with the order I placed. Maybe not. Not to worry. The K402's themselves were what I wanted - I figured I could sort drivers at a later stage.
I was thinking of the Faital HF200 or even Radian beryllium offerings maybe...
I'm listening to them now. There is no doubt the horn itself is spectacular, but I am noticing a bit of rawness to the driver. Of course nothing is eq'd or set up beyond hooking into he Altec network.
On some tracks I've played, they destroy the Altec gear, however there is a 'golden, glowing, lively warmth' to the 19's mid-range that is lacking with the 1332's. No surprises there, the Altecs had years of development - the system I'm running at the moment had 10 minutes!
Just finished listening to Leonard Cohen's song "Treaty". I felt like the artist was back from the dead, standing 5 feet in front of me performing live in my lounge..... I hope to build on that!! Awesome.
Yep, feels great to know that there is some more Klipsch goodness in Godzone. 🙂
Cheers Richard
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Some pics..
I told my work mates I was going to pick up my new tweeters....
Temporary home atop my Altec 19's - running instead of the Altec Driver and 811b horn.... obviously just plugged in and played. Interesting experiment!. Will report back as I make more observations....
These things are fricken huge!
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I will, I promise... But not until I get them home...!
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Hi all.
I went to the trucking depot today and picked up my K402 horns. It has been a long journey for them - coming from China all the way to NZ - and a long wait for me. I ordered the HF versions for my 2-way build (details of which are as-yet undecided).
I can't find a date of manufacture on them, but the are fitted with K1132 drivers - suggesting they are old stock. I thought they would be arriving with K691 compression drivers. Not the end of the world, I guess - I will probably track down some Beryllium drivers at some point.
How do the 1132's compare to K691's?
With thanks.
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1 hour ago, parlophone1 said:
But why would you have to scrap them? Do them right the first time, and if you do not like them, just sell them.
There would be zero market, methinks.
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29 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:
Go with the Nike phrase "Just do IT" as opposed to the "Paralysis of Analysis."
I like that Claude.
Why not, after all. I might knock up a cheap MDF pair. Then if I have to scrap them I won't feel so bad.
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8 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:
Your first configuration shown above will get you a 30 db peak at 26 Hz, (according to the Room Simulation I did) whereas the other will NOT, so go for that one. The Horn rolls off at 32 Hz.so the room gain is your friend! I guarantee you will NOT/NEVER need a subwoofer. As you move your chair closer to the Super MWM, you will flatten out the response if need be. But if you believe in the ISO curve, you will be perfect where you drew your chair. You can aim the treble horns more inward to change the imaging separately from the bass bins. So I say go for the Super MWM/K402 combo, you won't regret if if you don't have to move them ever. Aside from that, you will AMAZE your friends with the KILLER SOUND using small amplifiers, but you gotta have Time Delay on the K402/driver between 6-7 milliseconds!
Wow, thanks for that Claude - really do appreciate the effort there. Something more to think on
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With the MWM decision made, I'm going to need an amp suitable for 2 15" drivers per side. Some of you are running Crown amps, which are accessible to me as new and second hand items. Anyone prepared to offer a 'minimum standard' Crown amp to shoot for? Cheers.
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I ran KHorns for several years using a custom 45 SET amp. It was sheer bliss - bettered only by a similar circuit running PX4 valves (best I've heard). I had people crying on the floor listening to their favorite music. As good as the system sounded, I had a larger PP amp for when I wanted to play loud. Even at +/- 105db, the Khorns came to life a bit more with the extra power. My own call would be to have both amps at hand. If after a time you are not listening to the big one at all, then sell it.
Enjoy the world of SET. They are superb.
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2 hours ago, Dave A said:
Seriously are you looking for plans? MWM and SMWM are out there. There is also a ton of other builds at http://diyaudioprojects.com/
I have the plans thanks 🙂
I bought Klipschorns and Altec 19s without ever having heard them other than on youtube. Call me idiotic, but I can gather a fair amount about a speaker's 'personality' on some of the better vids - enough to say I wasn't surprised by the sound of either speaker system once I hooked them up.
(ducking for cover, waiting for the ridicule to arrive)
In all reality though, if these are better than Khorns and Altec 19's, in a similar vein, I dont think I can go wrong, eh.
But if you wanted to do me a video.... it would help psychologically mollify me lol 🙂
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3 hours ago, Dave A said:
You will love them. Best advice is still to hear someones setup first although few of us really elect to do that. Building these is worthwhile and since I doubt you have any close to hear building will save you $$$.
Can you make me a hi - res youtube vid of yours? Close as I will get, I fear 🙂
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I've decided I've been over-cooking this whole thing. I'm going to stick to standard MWMs and add a sub if needed. They are going to be an improvement on what I have, of that I am certain. Will probably go for a two singles per side. When I kick this off I will throw up some pics. Thanks for the advice and suggestions.
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1 hour ago, rockhound said:
LOL!
Since we are on the 942 subject, can you tell me what model woofers they are using? Many thanks.
PS: my coffee machine is possibly better than yours, so why not come here instead? 🙂
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5 hours ago, rockhound said:
@Ziggurat where are you located? I have the 942 setup currently and it puts a smile on my face everytime I crank it. I have considered finding some Lascala bins for my 402's also just to hear the difference. If your close your more than welcome to stop by for a listen.
Thanks for the input there. I am in New Zealand - hows about I drop in for coffee and a listen on Saturday Morning 🙂 (wish i could!)
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On 5/22/2019 at 11:46 AM, Marvel said:
You could contact Dana Moore at Soniphase... he has some horn cabinets and plans that are nice. Greg Roberts used to speak highly of one of his models. A little more space friendly.
Bruce
Thanks.. have begun looking into the Soniphase J2 as a Jube alternative. Will let you know how I go.
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1 minute ago, Dave A said:
How low do you want your bass to go? The second drawing is not far from what my speaker placement is but I also have 13'+ ceilings and the room is much longer but is also full of hard flat surfaces from equipment and stuff. Great big gear sounds good at any volume and does so with a different quality of sound smaller things can't duplicate, in my opinion for what it is worth. The 402 horn is the key ingredient and I chose a big single fold horn because I think it has superior sound. There are a lot of cabinet plans out there as Marvel suggests and many I am sure sound great. It is a shame you can't hear some of these various configurations before you commit to buying something.
As low as possible - hopefully removing the need for a sub - which adds more space.
I totally agree regarding the large gear providing something that other gear doesn't - I lived with Khorns in my bedroom for 3 years whilst flatting, no room for anything else except sonic bliss. I don't quite want to go that far this time around. The SWMWs would definitely not work in the larger of my two lounge areas due to to protrusion, limiting placement to the room I have drawn.
Yes, it is a real shame I am so far away from y'all.
K402's arrived.......
in Klipsch Pro Audio
Posted · Edited by Ziggurat
I'm not intent on switching my drivers at all, in fact, I would rather not. Because I do not have a basis for comparison, I have asked Roy (others have offered their opinions) if I am in some way disadvantaged by having the 1132's in my setting. If not, great.
What exactly would I stand to gain? No idea. The only thing I can conclusively state is that everyone I have read about prefers TAD drivers to other comers, with comments that hover around 'more smooth and natural'. So there must be something in swapping out.
As you point out, the next leap will be into active crossover territory, then to a horn bass bin. I have absolutely no doubt that these moves will be 'endgame' for me. Even if I had to stop right now, I'd say I have a sound that most people would not have experienced, and I'm pretty damn happy.
The Altec 19's, by virtue of being classics, deserve to be returned to their glory. Plus I now have a La Scala(ish) speaker that needs a birthday. I hope to focus future energy on these projects rather than the 'A' system.