BEC

"Do the math for the maximum power required to reach the maximum SLP rating of the Klipsch heritage speaker..............it is not a 100 watts..." Craig, here is that math done for you by PWK.

Sure, that makes sense. PLaying music? Do you mean 100W peaking on an amplifier meter? I mean the equivalent to 100 watts average as measured in voltage at the input to the crossover. See, we were trying to prove that the Faital HF200 driver could take the amount of power it could see used in a Khorn. So let me get this straight. You pumped 100 watts into this test rig with the actual sound it produced coming out of the speakers? Were you in the room? Did you promptly go out and buy some hearing aids? What is business getting so slow you need to come into this thread dumping this hogwash? I've owned a set of super AA for about 5 years. At times I push the SLP level pretty good. The swamping resistor NEVER gets even warm in the real world listening to music. For instance my system has been on playing music for 48 hours burning in a vintage amp we just installed some 70 new components..........I just felt the swamping resistor after 10 minute of letting it rip while I took my dog for a walk.... yup so loud I would not even want to be in the room with it...... the swamping resistors are at room temperature. The fact of the matter is at 100 watts playing music into any Klipsch heritage speaker the distortion of the speaker itself would be so high no normal person could stand it for more then a brief few second regardless of the quality of the amplifier used. Do the math for the maximum power required to reach the maximum SLP rating of the Klipsch heritage speaker..............it is not a 100 watts and even if it was the distortion to any person with reasonable hearing ability would be impossible to stand. Craig, Did you read that this was a test, proving a concept that a driver and some crossovers could survive through a torture test? And did you read that they passed the test? If you are going to comment at least pay attention to what is written.

Let's see, I think the count on grandchildren is at about 4 2/3 right now.

That was Al's AP12-350 network. I thought it was OK. My network and his drew almost identical acoustic curves and sound was about the same. When testing just his crossover with the spectrum analyzer, his tested bad at first, but not his fault. The swamping resistor drew so much current from my test rig that the voltage level dropped off as the frequency went up. I had to isolate his crossover load from the test equipment using an amplifier, then the test went fine.

Sure, that makes sense. PLaying music? Do you mean 100W peaking on an amplifier meter? I mean the equivalent to 100 watts average as measured in voltage at the input to the crossover. See, we were trying to prove that the Faital HF200 driver could take the amount of power it could see used in a Khorn.

I was able to get Al's swamping resistor pretty hot during a test I did for him and Dave using the Eliptrax horn and HF200 driver crossed at 400hz to see if the combination worked good enough to use in a Khorn. I used about 100 watts into the crossover for about an hour. I think it woud be a matter of what the music content is. For instance, one might try big band sound and that with all that midrange content might just cook the resistor after a time. And, for those who like to listen to 1khz test tones, on a Khorn, I think that by the time you got to about 113db out of the Khorn midrange, you would cook the resistor.

I wonder how many of those who "fixed" the sound by turning down the midrange really had a phase reversal on the woofers. I know that several I have talked to who initallly wanted to know how to lower the midrange output, got happy with the factory balance once they got the woofers in phase.

Well, I was sitting here trying to think of a new speaker name. This speaker was also "born" yesterday. Thanks for the help! Bob Crites

I am proud to announce the arrival of my newest grandson John Paul Crites. He was born yesterday in Guatemala City, Guatemala. He weighs in at 7 pounds 14 ounces and is doing fine. Mom, Noemi Crites and dad, Paul Crites are also doing fine as is big sister Naomi Crites. Bob Crites

Dean, I did read that. Let me sum that up. You said that Dennis said: "Adding the swamping resistor cannot alter the acoustic loading the driver sees (which causes the distortion to peak when the impedance peaks too), but it does allow the crossover to work much better." I guess this means that if you had a horn mouth reflection that occurs at the crossover point, you might see changes in the slope. And that the swamping resistor would damp them. Do we have any of those?

"So, what do we gain with the swamping resistor? Less distortion." Dean, I don't go for long rambling posts. So let's just take one at a time. How do we have less distortion? Let's remember that the swamping resistor is going to take away about 3db of amplifier output. You have to consider that PWK said that more power drawn out of an amp equaled more distortion.

Bruce, But that was the kind of amp PWK would have been using when he made the case for using autotransformers and letting the impedance rise.

"Okay Bob, with respect, using the resistive pad, TIM is -76dB down, and we should be worried about this why exactly? Besides, I thought it was your position that this type of low level distortion is swamped by other, higher level forms of distortion (diaphragm, etc.)." Dean, That was PWK, not me. You know he was all about low distortion even to the expense of everything else. I just say, why does anyone want the impedance to stay the same all across the three (or two) drivers in a speaker. What exactly do we gain from that, (leaving out the ability to adjust outputs easily for a moment)?

Oh My!! Would someone like to take a stab at explaining that circuit.

Here is what Paul Klipsch had to say about impedance. He was defending the use of the autotransformer which raises impedance instead of using resistive attenuation. Bob Crites DFH Impedance.pdf

Bob, I cannot find a Selenium 11-17 horn. But I see that you do supply the APT-50 with an 11-25 horn or a 17-25 horn in these links. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Eminence-APT-50-Driver-with-Selenium-HM11-25-Horn-/370619677660?pt=US_Speaker_Parts_Components&hash=item564aa77bdc http://www.ebay.com/itm/Eminence-APT-50-Driver-with-Selenium-HM17-25-Horn-/380444867186?pt=US_Speaker_Parts_Components&hash=item589447fa72 Is this the ATP50 that you tested? Which horn is it or do they both have the same response? We would all like to see the response of both pairings. Thanks. Yes, that should have said the Selenium 11-25 horn. I went back and corrected that. Anyway, neither of those I have on Ebay would be the combinations I would use myself. I tend to not keep any traces that I don't intend to use, so I don't have those to show you. They are just combinations some people like to buy. I woud suggest that the APT-50 on either the ll-25 or the 17-25 horns need an active crossover to smooth out the curve.

Somebody at Eminence has got to be wrong. Was it the guy you dealt with or this new guy who says the response curves and power ratings were bogus. I tend to think that since you tested the newer 2 version, that the original has a better response, but it is possibly overrated for power handling. You know, I really need to test the APT-50-2 again to be sure of how it performs. The ones Eminence sent me were some of the first batch they had and it is possible that later ones got somewhat better. Looks like though that if they did get better, Eminence would put a new curve up showing that they got better. Anyway, I have a couple of them now that have just been made. Will take another look at response out of them when I get a chance. As far as power handling on the orignal APT-50, don't know about what it actually is. All I know is that very few people manage to blow the diaphragms on them. Bob Crites I think you are the most trusted person in this forum. I certainly trust you! It will be interesting to know about the newer tweets for sure. I hope it doesn't cut into your profit margin too much. You provide a needed service to all of us Klipsch collectors. For what it's worth, I would love to hear your review of the wood horns in this thread. It would be nice if the craftsman could make you a threaded set for testing. I said I needed to do the test again on the APT-50-2 since the test I did was on some early production units. Since I still have those also, I decided to test both early ones and later ones on the same horn. I chose the Selenium 11-25 horn since that one was handy. Results, at least on that horn, the recent production APT-50-2 looks a lot better than the earlier APT-50-2. Of course, the test results could be better or worse than this on a differnt horn. You really don't know how a combination of horn and driver performs until you test them. On the trace below, the red is the early APT-50-2. The blue is the recent production APT-50-2. Looks like they gave up some SPL on the recent one to smooth out the curve some. Bob Crites

Somebody at Eminence has got to be wrong. Was it the guy you dealt with or this new guy who says the response curves and power ratings were bogus. I tend to think that since you tested the newer 2 version, that the original has a better response, but it is possibly overrated for power handling. You know, I really need to test the APT-50-2 again to be sure of how it performs. The ones Eminence sent me were some of the first batch they had and it is possible that later ones got somewhat better. Looks like though that if they did get better, Eminence would put a new curve up showing that they got better. Anyway, I have a couple of them now that have just been made. Will take another look at response out of them when I get a chance. As far as power handling on the orignal APT-50, don't know about what it actually is. All I know is that very few people manage to blow the diaphragms on them. Bob Crites

Yeah, UPS handles this for me and they are very good at it. They are expensive, but I have not found anyone that does it cheaper. The actual shipping from Poland to me for a 1000 pound pallet is about $500.00. Paper work along the way (customs, taxes, bribes, or whatever they have to do) is about $1000.00. Yeah I was dealing in importing plants & UPS would not do customs on plants at all @ the time . I have a love/hate thing with UPS took six months to get them to pay on a insurance claim on a smashed new computer I was sending to my parents . kept claiming that it was packed wrong even thou it was triple boxed with their own boxes . Bob, you being a commercial customer they treat you different than us common folk . . . . L O L they kept thinking I would take No for a answer but that it was clearly their fault . made me jump thru multiple hoops but I got my 1K outta them in the end . What I wrote was not to be an endorsement of UPS in general, just their handling of an overseas shipment. I dumped UPS for our daily shipper quite awhile back and went to FedEx. Lots fewer problems since we went to FedEx. But, on the Poland to here shipment, the FedEx bid was about $2000.00 higher than the UPS bid.

Yeah, UPS handles this for me and they are very good at it. They are expensive, but I have not found anyone that does it cheaper. The actual shipping from Poland to me for a 1000 pound pallet is about $500.00. Paper work along the way (customs, taxes, bribes, or whatever they have to do) is about $1000.00.

I can appreciate that. Dealing with customs in many other countries is a pita. Your drivers still have the original threading? I know USSpeaker still has the adapters for those listed. I may get some while they are available in case I was to try these on some other horns. I've got two pair of the original APT-50 drivers. Bruce Bruce, Normally Al at US Speakers just dropships stuff (at least that is the way things I order from him comes) so he may not really have the APT-3s. As far as I know, Eminence doesn't have any more. I think they got them from Tonsil along with the tweeters. Yes, mine have the orignal threads. I may have a few of the APT-3 adapters. I would have to go dig for them in the warehouse. Bob Crites

Bruce, I think there are several reasons. The thread was not a problem since Tonsil already had an adapter that changed to the standard 1 3/8 thread. One problem (I thiink this one is typical of lots of European companies) is that they shut down completely for a month or 2 during the summer for holiday. During that time, you cannot contact them at all. That is by email or phone or any other way. They are just plain gone. Also, Tonsil does not want to deal with Polish customs. They want to produce an order then set it on their dock in Wrzesnia, Poland and let their customer handle it from there. So, I have to hire a thrid party to handle the shipment all the way from their dock to me. Eminence is so big that they think they can dictate terms to all their suppliers but Tonsil did not go along.

A picture, they say, is worth a lot of words. Bob Crites

The driver for the CT125 will not fit on his horn. Woud take still another adapter. Bob Crites

I called this one K500/5000 V2. By the way both of these use an autotransformer, but it is not a T2A. I labeled the drawings with the attenuation values. Bob Crites