guf
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Posts posted by guf
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you need something like this? the grills too? the drivers?
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thanks guys! I have been trying a few different thing.
1) keeping the tweeter in the same place but on a piece of rock wool insulation.
2) raising it up and moving int around in different spots.
3) moving it to the front face above the elptitrac
1 and 3 are the best. 3 has been like that for 48 hours. I feel like because I'm not thinking about moving it its the best option.
And yes I had to raise the whole top piece up 1 inch to fit the new horn.
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Any ideas or thoughts? I'm using ALK ES crossovers if that matters. I think they try to address the time alignment issues?
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maybe more hip hop than rap....but I listen to this yesterday on vinyl and was blown away at how it sounded. And I love the music.
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Sounds like a great oppertunity. You can always move back.
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On 1/5/2020 at 4:24 PM, Ebag4 said:
I have been running dual 12” servo sub in OB (H frame alignment) for several years. Outstanding tight bass, no overhang or boom as is typical with monopole bass (I have never heard horn loaded bass in a home environment). The amps have controls that really allow you to dial it in to 20Hz in room. Some run triples and I know of one gentleman that runs dual stacks of 6! These are sold as DIY but I won’t mention the name as this is only my second post here and I am not clear on the rules regarding that type of thing. I’m not certain I can receive PMs yet , but I will be happy to supply additional information if asked.
Best,
Ed
I respect your respectfulness... and knowing and reading your post's for years from the other forums funny to think of you as a newbie here. Welcome. Coming from AC and my main hang out forum for years, i'm brainwashed by what i read there. And i assume what I read is the best and only way. My first 15 pairs of speakers were from forum sponsors. I also read and learn here. Not a lot of open baffle talk. I think that's how forums work the ones we frequent, well its our community. The people that hear horn loaded bass say it the best and the people that here OB bass say they will never go back. I find it hard to believe when people in the audio community don't know who Danny Richie and GR research. DIY and a Texan. He's a great contributor.
With all that said... i'm back and forth with do I want horn or OB bass?!!
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Looking to sell my upgraded 1978 La Scala’s. I’d say they are in great shape. They have the Crites120 and the Deang modified aa crossovers. 1750$ I’ve had them since June 2019 with the upgrades soon after. Looking for a local ish buyer. Happy to deliver in a reasonable distance.
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Mocked up some enclosures for the elptitrac
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Oh! I love test questions.... -6?
right?
My instinct said to go lower and I had been enjoying at -9 all evening. I think in his manual he says there is no right answer so to try different numbers. I will follow your suggestion and try -6 today. I was running the La Scala at 0 on the tweeter. I think my preference is to run a little hot. And my room is treated and more dead then alive sounding. And if I'm running external subs that could allow for lower attenuation as well? Thanks for helping me understand.
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39 minutes ago, Panelhead said:
Try some golf balls. Much better sound quality than tennis shoes.
dude they are running shoes!
update....
So I never mentioned that I had only installed only one of the Kappa woofers and had the original in the other cabinet. Maybe I'm imagining it but the center image is so perfect now that both are installed. I'm into the first record. I guess i didn't think they were that different. Could that have an impact? on the over all sound stage?
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approaching the 24 hour mark.... Things have been much better. Like if i was at this point last night i probably would not have posted. the more aggressive toe in and time aligning the tweeter has helped. I'm sure i have all the problems @Chris A was talking about but at least they are familar sounding problems. The sound is much larger and i'm pretty sure I can improve on it.
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2 hours ago, Chris A said:Have you looked at putting double-thickness Owens-Corning 703 bass traps across one or more corners or wall-floor/wall-ceiling? (They can be hidden from view oftentimes.) This will absolutely control the 100-200 Hz reverberation time in-room which is responsible for boominess. Standard absorption panels will lack effectiveness at these frequencies, which will allow you to completely control the boominess.
Chris
if you look at my pictures the whole front wall, and both corners are covered in bass traps, and behind my listening position. I also have some at the first reflection points. They are from gik, maybe they use corning 703. I still prefer them pulled away from the front wall and side walls. if you are telling me that the sound stage and imaging will improve my moving them into the corners i'd be willing to try. I'm be more likely to take the swarm approach or a pair of dual OB subs. Maybe just because the other forums I read suggest that. IDK? i guess it all comes to to measuring to see what's best.
thanks for the thorough explanation.
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thanks @ChrisA so much for taking the time to write all this.
If i had belles and went to Lascala would a lot of what you said be the same? or if i went to a the bigger klipsch horn instead of the eliptrac 400? it sounds like I probably had a lot of these problems before, this is not just because i "upgraded? "And to your point the only way to tell is to take measurements before and after? The placement has made the biggest difference. They are basically in the same place as my La Scalas. i liked the idea of having a slightly less deep speaker to tuck them in a little but pulling them out from the walls give me more of the sound i'm used to. I have external subs. All of my Klipsch speakers i preferred away from the walls. I could never get rid of the boomyiness.
And if i go active ALL of my problems go away?
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@Deang would my modified AAs from you work in this set up? just curious.
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just an subjective observation. As i pull the speakers out to more of the middle of the room i'm getting a much better center image. Also toeing them in seems to be helping. When i stand up it sounds more of what i'm used too. I'll call it better, maybe better than the sofa "sweet spot". And as i move are the room the sound does a sound better everywhere compared to my La Scala. BUT i do think what i had before sitting in the very narrow sweet spot was still more engaging.
Mid horn is attenuated to 12 following AL's advice.
following everyones advice..... i'm pulling out the measurement equipment.
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8 minutes ago, rplace said:
I don't think this is the root or cause of your "problem", for lack of a better term. But I think this could be contributing. Having the horns/drivers totally exposed can add some sound radiated up, out to the sides and behind. I think this may make things sound different, not necessary better or worse. My Oris 150 horns have a chamber behind them that holds the driver. This in turn has a tight fitting back for it. The system also ships with lots of sound deadening material. I've also owned Khorns for 14 years and currently still have a pair of La Scalas. The top hat of a khorn or the top section of the LS provides some containment of the drivers/horns, no? With everything exposed you are getting some sound radiated to the back and sides.
What I find with my Oris horns is that if you remove the backs and more so if you remove the back and the "stuffing" you get a more airy sound but a less focused sound stage. When I actually measure them (like @Chris A ) is suggesting you do, I can see by the measurements they are actually worse. Worse as far as measurements (phase, group delay) go, sound is subjective as to if you like it or not.
I agree with Chris that is seem unlikely you could swap all that out and stumble upon the perfect combo right out of the gate. Seems like it is not practical to cut things up just to get the tucked inside, but I would not give up on them just yet. When I swapped out my AK-2 XOs for a pair of Dean's long ago; I used to keep the screws out of the top section so I could yank the top off, change the settings on the XOs and get right back to listening. I distinctly remember there being a difference with that top piece on or off keeping the same XO settings. I can only conclude that some sound/energy was coming up and out from the driver/horn not just out of the mouth of the horn.
Hope this helps
Thank you it does help. Some practical things to think about and try. I had a pair of Salk speakers that had a open back or closed back. The closed back to allow for more pin point imaging. Great point!
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32 minutes ago, Deang said:
So, you're 3dB down on the tweeter and 12dB down on the mids? Just clarifying - the first sentence threw me. Using the 120?
Sorry, yes confusing. . It is at 6 for the mid and 0 for the tweeter, yes the 120. I was saying thats what i settled on when I went to sleep. I was enjoying it.. I have triend everything from 3 thru 12 for the mid. I went back to 6 on the mids for default.
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2 minutes ago, Deang said:
It's an in-between room.
Where are you tapped out with attenuation right now?
i went to sleep at 6, after trying 3-12. I went to sleep feeling much better about the sound.
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2 hours ago, Schu said:
Sell the belles... go back to the la scalas.
Problem solved.
I don't think it really a great idea to chase system customization if you're already very happy with a set up you own... sure you can probably get a custom belle to sound good, but why... unless you're a pure tinkerer enthusiast.
thats an option but i should give it more than 24 hours before i give up. yeah I am a "tinkerer" cars, trucks, home, food... whatever. Every time I modded the la scalas i like them better.
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9 minutes ago, Deang said:
You're getting a better sound in that room with the ES networks than with what I sold you? Interesting.
yes.
but what do i know?
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5 hours ago, Chris A said:
You've almost certainly got time alignment AND phase response issues with the higher-order filters that ALK crossovers use, along with the change in the midrange horn and driver. This is easy to see if you had a plot of measured phase vs. frequency from a microphone (as well as the commonly seen SPL vs. frequency from the same measurements), both before and after the changes you show.
The problems that you report in your subjective listening are not related to width of the crossover interference bands, unfortunately...but rather more likely the phase shifts that are incurred by using steeper slope filters (i.e., there is no free lunch--especially with passive crossovers) and the different horns/drivers.
Perhaps if you invested $110 in a calibrated USB microphone and microphone stand, loaded REW onto your laptop, then ran a measurement, you'd see the problems--instead of guessing what's occurring. Then you would be able to make informed decisions.
Chris
yeah i got those mics and stand. years ago... to help with placement and room treatments. gave up and seemed to surivive with out it for the past 5 years
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Bells were ok not better than the Modified La Scalas so I transferred stuff over and they sounded better. Then tonight I got the horns. Lots of changes is 24 hours. I thought with my ALK ES crossovers *** helped with the time alignment?
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ok. I did this to one. Could something like this effect the time alignment? Even just doing one speaker, gave me some depth and center image.
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So I had my system really dialed in. La Scalas, the usual mods and then some - tweeter, woofer, ES crossover. They were sounding great. It helped that i got a turntable and have been mesmerized by the vinyl sound. I thought how the next logical thing would be some kind of mid range horn upgrade. I tracked down a elptitrac 400 and B&C dcm50. Then... wondering how I was going to fit the horn into my La Scala a pair of Belle's came up for sale locally. I got them. I thought, I'll get these and not have to cut up my La Scala. They would fit right in.... I took delivery today and I will have to adjust a little to make them fit in the Belles. So they are sitting on top.
I have been listening all day and I can't seem to get them to sound right. The sound is big and clear and detailed but I lost some depth and soundstage. And I have to say these were the strongest points of my system before. Maybe that sound wasn't "right" before and i got used to it? I have been messing with placement and adjusting the taps on my ALK crossovers but i don't feel like I'm getting the magic back that I had. Any thoughts or suggestions? before and after pics.
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Wanted: Klipsch K-500 Horns For Belle
in Garage Sale
Posted
i'll get in touch this weekend.