RobMarshall
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Posts posted by RobMarshall
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Lots of folks commented 3 or more years late, then wondered if it mattered any more since the thread was old. I am here to say that the thread is as current today, as it was over 20 years ago. When the thread was started, Heresy's were in Version II. Posters had know idea the Version III was coming out in a few years (2005). Now here we are, Version IV! brought with it more changes. But one thing remains the same. Brightness! Researching this issue is all I have been doing for 3 months. Learning about L-pads, auto formers, golf balls taped to the through of the mid range driver, to name a few. I've done nothing yet, but will at the right time. I say all this to say, keep the discussions going. It will help someone someday, whether it is tomorrow or two decades from now. I have learned a lot from this thread, and can say my research is over. Now it is time to evaluate everything I have read and learned. I'll keep posting with updates when I have some thing good to share. The first thing I plan to do is buy a good subwoofer. That may very well be the least invasive approach to getting this balanced out. V/r, Rob
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18 hours ago, 83 LSIs said:
I haven't. But funny thing, I just saw your message and also just this second sat down to the PC to start looking for a good sub. My DAC/preamp has a pair of balanced outputs available; or I would have to use a splitter on the RCA's to connect to a subwoofer. Please share any thoughts you have about how it should/would/might work. Thanx. Rob
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On 3/12/2024 at 10:41 AM, mboxler said:
The Heresy I and II used autoformers. Klipsch went to series resistors starting with the Heresy III.
The crossover in your Heresy IV is pretty complex. Are you asking if autoformer(s) could be used in those?
I was thinking of something that could lower the gain to either the squawker or the tweeter. Maybe placed between the crossover and the actual drivers. I would love it had Klipsch offered something like that as an option. Or an aftermarket device. I may have found a work around though. I just discovered that if I toe-in the H-IV's to about 35 degrees from the back wall; and then sit behind the normal axis listening spot, I get a lot less glare. The sound stage is obviously further away, but that's fine. I never cared to be on the front row anyway. I just don't ever remember having to do that with the Heresy I's. I would back them flat against the wall and blast them. No glare. But I love the H-IV just the same and and bound to make them their best. A labor of love you could say. 🙂
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8 hours ago, 83 LSIs said:
Input sensitivity: 9V
18dB less gain than their other amplifiers.
Thx 83 LSIs for your reply. Means a lot. Was the idea to drop the gain, because the horns are so sensitive/and/or bright sounding? You can tell I have a lot to learn.
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Twenty years to late for some incredible ideas and people that understand and appreciate them.
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Besides the tubes, does anyone know what modifications are in the Horn Mono's that make them more suitable for horn speakers? That would be good info to have to teach me more about horn speakers and what I have with the H-IV's. I
Thx, Rob
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On 1/17/2024 at 8:31 AM, NOSValves said:
The rudeness (if that is what you want to call it) comes from having to put up with the same old worn out cliche that SET amps (which In reality from what I have read from you so far your are not even using) are some inherently superior amplification device when in reality the reverse is the truth. The fascination with SE amps in your case is very inticing because they are so very flat out simple to build. {cheap too} So a less talented DIYer like you can be successful at throwing one together and satisfy your ego! Building a "QUALITY" push pull amplifier that is versatile playing any musical type without strain with the ability to still have the finesse to play 3 peice jazz now that takes talent.
Your comment about PP sounding like SS isn't a rude comment? It's rude to both tube amplifier designers and solid state amp designers which many awesome examples of both exist.
Face it you are like reading something that has been written a thousand times..... It's hard not to be rude. Besides I really thought for me I've been nice to you... I'm like Paul Klipsch when I read BS I call BS...
Little education for you
SSSS stands for Single as in one single output tube
EEEE stands for Ended meaning again one final output tube
Here is the important one
TTTT stand for Triode and usually directly heated for the utmost in euphoric sound. Which with the REAL set crowd means tubes like a single 45, 2A3 or 300B along with few uncommon others.. not Tetrode and Pentodes strapped in quasi triode mode.
It also usually means zero global negative feedback which is another misleading catch phrase since most them employ feedback just not off the final output of the amp which limits them from correcting errors derived from the output transformer. Than you factor in most of you DIYer are using bargain basement mass produced iron from the likes of Edcor and Hammond. Well sorry to say much to correct with those!
The proper name to call amps like you seem to be using is just SE...
Oh and I've done a lot more around here than just sell PP amplifiers. Sorry you missed it all!
Forget it I give up! This is boring.
Lighten up Francis!
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On 1/16/2024 at 3:39 PM, henry4841 said:
When a class A/B amplifier leaves class A all depends on how the designer biased the amplifier. With a diyaudio.com SS class A/B amplifier called the Honey Badger, designed by all the talented members from all over the world on that forum, I biased mine slightly higher than normal for it to never leave class A with my horns. Remarkable sounding SS class A/B amplifier by the way with multiple output stages. I will agree with our speakers, who normally never leaves the 1st watt window, most all retail class A/B amplifiers will operate in class A unless pushed very hard. Different story with conventional speakers depending on their efficiency rating.
As far as single ended class A operation it is still considered the purest form of amplification due to the fact the audio signal is not manipulated in any form such as being split into with the positive side of the waveform amplified with one circuit and the negative phase amplified by another as in a push pull amplifier then joined back together to drive the speaker. SET tube amplifiers who all are operated in class A are not everyone's cup of tea for sure being sound is so subjective but the form of amplification I like best. More entertaining to me even though it does have some 2nd harmonics.
Our hobby is not kidney dialysis but entertainment as Nelson Pass says. Nice to be able to choose. I have many class A/B amplifiers I switch in and out of my system for variety that I enjoy very much. It is between SE and PP amplification one can hear a distinctive difference in sound. I do enjoy them both with my preference being a SET tube amplifier. Single ended with some 2nd harmonics vs PP with a more sterile sound, cleaner as many will say, with very low distortion numbers. Nelson Pass has said he intentionally added some 2nd harmonics into some of his PP SS amplifier designs and they sold very well.
As I have said before I believe every serious audiophile should have one of both. A single ended amplifier and a push pull amplifier. Both are available in SS and tube amplifiers though SE SS amplifiers are not that common. I only know of them in high end audio. Most all SS amplifiers are PP amplifiers unless you are talking class D which is going to be the amplification form for the masses in the future.
On 1/16/2024 at 7:28 AM, aperfectcircle said:I did write a reply but something must have gone awry!
I have ended up with the Willsenton R300 and couldn’t be happier. I was strongly leaning to the Cary, as I’ve been very keen on going to a simple 300B amp. The R300 is stunning, right out of the gate with no hours on it. Even my fiancée had an immediate reaction of “this sounds much better” though in comparison to the Bluesound. The sound is big, three dimensional, and vocals sound sublime. Bass is fantastic too which was a big worry. I actually think the R300 beats the PrimaLuna I had, at least in some areas, but considering the price it’s a killer and I don’t think I’ll be looking to change for some time (tube rolling notwithstanding after getting some serious hours on the stock kit).
I have only hear great things about the Willsenton amps. The build quality looks excellent as well. Congrats.
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There is certainly a lot of charts and graphs. One problem though, is the set up. The wrong placement was used for both the listener and the speakers. The manual says to start with the listening point on axis, then move around until you find the sweet spot. That wasn't done. No one does that. That's like putting a bull horn up to your ear lobe. The ideal spot, most experienced horn aficionados agree, for the listener is 2 or 3 feet in back of the axis point. Do that and an entirely new and warranted world of sound appears. Secondly, rather than have the speakers set up in a corner or even near a wall, they are in the open somewhat. That isn't recommended in the manual. Not following the OEM manual and not following the position of the majority of experienced Klipsch owners, immediately runs afoul of the ANSI standards for home stereo testing; and general scientific procedures. Science is only science if agreed on standards, OEM recommendations, and the scientific process is followed. Another interesting point to me, is that the conclusions are opinions, and not supported by the data. Again, from a science perspective...that's neither help nor useful. It's also misleading. There appears to be a measure of confirmation biases going on and likely why the test set up was the way it was. The set up presents the speakers at their worst position. Makes no sense unless that is the intent. Thankfully, one test is only one test. It does not even come close to....let's say....explaining why millions of owners love the sound; let alone offering anything useful when understanding the horn sound. Notice too, the tester has taken contrarian views on several controversial speakers. From a business perspective...that may be smart. You create the event (in this case posting radical test results), and then lead folks to visit your website. Getting them to your site brings you clicks and visitors. That's business. No matter how you get them there, your site value goes up and the more money you make. Expect more controversial test results in the future. Remember, complexity isn't accuracy. Fancy charts and graphs founded on the wrong test set up are meaningless.
Would any one buy the newest item on the Taco Bell menu, knowing that it had undergone one and only one test buy a guy in his garage? Hmmm.
My two cents.
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I have the same issue with a brand new set of Heresy IV's. Do they all sound this shouty bright, or could I have received that 1 in 100 where the squawker makes more than a few pieces of music un-listenable (if that is a word). I love these speakers and want to get them right.
NAD CS1 Tidal Endpoint ----> RME ADI 2 FS DAC/pre with EQ ------> 2 WPC SET 45 (Alan Eaton) ----> Heresy IV (using Mogami cables 10 ft.)
I am grateful for any advice, ideas or thoughts. Robert Marshall/Danville KY
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I want to live in that studio!!!! Incredible!
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Congrats!
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Thanks all:
mboxer - I guess. But I hardly even know what I am saying since I have no technical knowledge of these devices/components. I came across the idea of "L-pads" and "autoformers" a day or so back. Since then, I think I saw an image of an automaker, but not an L-pad. I came across them googling for ways to attenuate power to horns. I am 95% content with the Heresy IV 's because I listen mostly to acoustical tracks and some jazz guitar (Pat Matheny. If you have not listen to his stuff....please do. It's insanely good and sounds amazing on Klipsch horns - other worldly good). But ever once and a while, I want to listen to something else...and the horns can sometimes come across a little bright. So from there, I starting thinking, if there was some sort of device that could be integrated with the crossover (or not integrated with the cross over and placed between the crossover and the horn terminals) that could be user controlled. I agree too, the IV's crossover is a very different monster. I long for the old style...it's like the VW motor of old...you could find and fix anything.
Sure appreciate everyone..and I hope I did not stir up any anything with my questions or post.
UPDATE: As soon as I posted this I started googling acoustic "L-pad" and was introduced to a new world I never new existed. So this idea of tuning horns has been around a while. I don't know if I will ever do it, I might never be able to justify it...but if the Heresy's came with it...I would not object in the least. Just seems like it would be a worthwhile feature.
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Langston and all other esteemed posters!!!
Enjoyed this discussion a lot. As a relative new comer and a proud owner of Heresy IV's, I've been wondering about this very same thing (I think...) lately....and clueless about any of it. All I had in mind was some "device" that might be installed on the existing crossovers that would allow the user to "adjust" the power on one or more of the horns. The came up when I was faced with a lot of room treatments to tone down the highs. Sure would be a lot easier to adjust the horns. From what I read here, my idea was far from new. Similar devices have been used in the past. From you experience, would a device like the autoformer work on, say a Heresy, the same what it worked on a K-horn or the other big ones? Thanks. Rob
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I had that same thing happen, but it ended up being the RCA cable into my amp. I swapped speakers and equipment for days...till I discovered it was one bad connector on an RCA cable. Might check those.
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I better go to my celler and look through the boxes. Because I missed the instructions, etc. that must have come with the speakers. I have only had the Heresy IV for a month or so. Thanks for the tip, folks. Headed downstairs now.
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Holy Cow Bat Man!!!! .... what was I thinking. Please blame it on my head and not my heart. I totally failed at my mandatory post-purchase photo-sharing duties!!! 🙂 As my wife keeps telling me....you have to do better!!!
Some explainers:
- My man cave/study/hide-a-way is as square as you get (including size!). About 15' x 15. Ceilings are about 9'. Furnishings are a bit of this and that, and not much of either. The room is having a major identity crisis. I wanted to get the important things first.
- The set up is:
Netgear Nighthawk Router/Tidal Streaming --- (RJ 45 Cat5e) --- > NAD CS 1 --- (Tosk link) --> RME-ADI2 FS DAC/Pre --- (RCA)--- > Alan Eaton 2 wpc SET amp --- (Mogami cable) --- > Heresy's IV
- The REM-ADI2 Dac is lower right. The yellow lights are continuous visual frequencies.
- The NAD C1 DSD end point is at lower left - small blue light. The NAD unit supports Tidal...which is the main reason I bought it. Plus the price was about $350.00
- Upper shelf is the Alan Eaton SET 45 amp. About 2 wpc. I was skeptical, but with Heresy’s, if I turn the knobs all the way, it is equivalent of about a forty wpc solid state amp. That is a rough estimate based on having owned a lower wattage SS amp years ago. Anyway, it gets plenty loud that I would never turn it all the way up.
The Heresy IV are in Walnut with the "lamb’s wool" grills. They are everything I had hoped for, and more. I was happily surprised to find the stands came with them. Right now, I have no reason to change them. I'll see what the room is going to look like with some furniture and a little moving around. Some say taller stands are better. That will come later.
You all did me a huge favor getting me over the hump. Money is always a factor, at least with the people I know. No one wants to make a high-dollar mistake. After looking at all the comparable speakers (in the Heresy price range), I kept coming back to them. At that price, it is mostly bookshelf speakers, and the tower type (i.e. Focal) which seem to me are the same bookshelf speakers with a longer to the floor cabinet. I saw a lot of speakers with full-range drivers (sometimes just one). Again, kept coming back to Heresy IV's. I had looked around my area up to about a 4-hour drive time for a pre-owned set but had no luck at all. Did that for about 6 months. I knew I was getting close. Then I put my post out there and you all responded. That did it. Pulling the trigger was not hard to do then. I dialed the number, order them up…and am glad I did. No regrets!
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This wraps up this post....because a brand new pair of Heresy IV's in Walnut (with the Lambswool fabric) are making their way to my home as we speak. I might have them as soon as tomorrow, or possibly Sunday if UPS delivers. PLEASE ACCEPT MY HUGE THANK YOU for your support and great points I had not considered. They made it easy for me to pull the trigger. AND THE PICTURES!!! VERY NICE. Some fantastic room setups (and gear). Now, that might take me a little longer to ever reach that level of perfection. But don't you know I am going to try! 🙂
Thanks again. I really mean it.
Rob
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It's an old thread now, but I can't help hoping that Tom Adamson from California ended up with a stereo of his dreams. Sounds like he more than deserves it.
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Geoff....good point. Should have stipulated IV. I'd like to pull the trigger next week on a pair of speakers. The Heresy's I have heard before and like the sound signature.
001...right...we do not discuss. Anything to offer about the Heresy?
Woofers and Tweeters... that's meaningful and helpful. Something I had not considered that makes a bid difference for me. The veneer will hold up longer. Thank you!
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Would folks please give some very good reasons in favor of buying Klipsch Heresy's (as opposed to, say Crites CS2 - Heresy-like model, or SR-70 if someone still makes them)
Some that come to mind are:
1. Manufactures warranty.
2. Genuine parts (now and in the future should I need them in 15 or so years)
3. Better QC for current parts.
Anything else would be appreciated. It's a tough decision and I want to be able to justify it.
Respectfully,
Robert
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This thread has helped me as well. Picked a nice pair of Heresy's circa 1970. Been struggling to find a way to connect the speaker wire to it that held strong and looked decent. I'll try some of the crimp on spades. May 21, 2020. Thanks everyone!
Bright Heresys? Dramatic, fix, for FREE.
in Technical/Restorations
Posted
I am taking to heart every reply. I missed a couple of pre-owned deals that seemed great, here locally in KY, but I hope and pray a good set will come up again, soon.
Most importantly, being able to have your insights and the benefit of your experience is amazing. Thank you! It means a lot.