henry4841
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Posts posted by henry4841
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11 hours ago, Marvel said:
Here is a schematic for parallel 6c33 tubes. A single channel with 3 tube... I don't know if it's for audio or heating your house.
Am I correct in thinking the reason for more current being run in a SET output stage being better control of the bass speaker? Higher damping factor? There is certainly more expense with all those output circuits and a beefy more expensive power supply transformer and circuit to deliver enough current to run those dang tubes.
You would have a small heater with all those output tubes. Not seen that often in SET amplifiers. Many may consider it just being an advertising tool without contributing that much to the overall sound. But then I have never heard a dual or triple parallel output stage SET amplifier to compare it to my other SET amplifiers.
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10 hours ago, richieb said:
I also had the J2 but let it go. I’ve owned the F3 longer than any amp I’ve owned. They are very similar although the J was bit more powerful , 25 vs 15 for the F.
After more thought on the subject of Firstwatt being single stage amplifiers, many of them are. The F3 was designed many years ago and since then in many of his designs they do have an extra circuit consisting of a couple of J-fets but used as a buffer with no gain. A buffer is an impedance matching circuit matching the source and the amplifier better. Electronically those amps could be considered a single stage as far as the sound is concerned. A buffer has very little if any affect on the sound and is a very desirable component between the different equipment stages in the audio chain. My principle volume control device is a stand alone buffer called the Firstwatt B1 V2. I use it more than a preamp to control the volume with my Lascala's not needing the extra voltage gain of a preamp.
Firstwatt is simple circuit amplifiers using just as few parts to get the job done. What many consider delivering the best sound. Less parts, wanting to hear the source and not components.
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1 hour ago, 83 LSIs said:
Dick Olsher famously remarked that “The first watt is the most important watt.” This sentiment has also been expressed by others as “Who cares what an amplifier sounds like at 500 watts if it sounds like crap at one watt?” With this in mind, I created First Watt in 1998 as a "kitchen-table" effort, exploring unusual low power amplifiers with an emphasis on sound quality.
You will find that Firstwatt amplifiers have a sound very much like a tube amplifier but in SS.
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2 hours ago, richieb said:
The F3 I’m currently listening to is a NP singe stage I believe. And like much of the gear ‘round here it sounds “okay” -
My first thought was the F3 is a 2 stage but after looking at the schematic you are right single stage from what I see. It has been years since I built that amplifier. I still have the boards but used the case and PS section for another FW project. Nelson is big on less is better, fewer parts. The F3 is similar to the J2 and F8 in that they all use power J-fets.
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2 hours ago, richieb said:
Now I’m wondering about running two triode power tubes per channel is actually a “parallel “ circuit. I’ve looked at the Audio Mirror site where his new 6c33c monos are $19K/pr. and the Lamm Electronics site where their 6c33c amps are many multiples in price compared to AM. My point is never do any of these producers describe their single ended amps as a “parallel circuit”. Class A single ended is as descriptive as it gets. So two power tubes are used in each channel are automatically a “parallel “ circuit? I’m not so sure that’s a given at this point -
I do not see how 2 output tubes in a SET amplifier could be used in another way. That is if they are the same tube. I have seen schematics where let's say a 300b power tube is used to drive one of those big transmitting tubes and one could call that two power tubes in series where one drives the other. When I see two identical power tubes in one channel in a SET amplifier I just assume they are being run in parallel running more current for the output circuit. But there is a lot I have not seen when building electronic circuits though. A schematic and someone with enough talent could tell exactly how two identical output tubes are being used but not seeing the schematic I will assume they are being run in parallel until someone says and shows me differently. If two identical power tubes are run in series one would naturally think that one would overdrive the other tube if everything else is equal. Most if not all SET amplifiers are two stage amplifiers with just a driver tube circuit and the power tube circuit. Simplicity is what makes them so sweet sounding. Nelson Pass in some SS Firstwatt amplifiers utilize just 2 stages for the very same reason.
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Not everyone can hear or appreciate what a SET tube amplifier like a SET 300B brings to the table. Understandable and will save them a lot of money . Not a large market being it takes a very efficient speaker to work properly but with horn speakers that reveal the subtle details of music along with a SET tube amplifier which also provides an unmodified audio signal it can be a wonderful experience. Those with a trained ear with experience in the audio world do hear what is so wonderful a sound and detail they present. That being said though I can and do appreciate the difference in sound a PP tube or transistor can make. A serious audiophile will benefit from a good SET and a good PP amplifier for a difference in sound. I will use a SET for a few weeks, months and love the sound then put in a PP amp and think boy this sounds great then after a few weeks, months do the same with a SET and say the very same thing. All can sound good but my preference is a SET tube amplifier with the music I prefer. Enjoy.
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9 hours ago, JohnA said:
That is just the thing I was looking for. So, 2 tubes, run in parallel as SET can make 45 watts? I did not know SETs could be paralleled, thus the question about broadcast tubes. And I was curious as to whether a broadcast tube could sound good.
I have heard of 2 tubes being used in parallel used in a SET but it is for a different purpose than more power which I will not get into. As Shakeydeal said, when you see 2 power tubes per channel 99% of the time it is going to be a push pull amplifier and not SET. What you are going to see in the majority of SET amplifiers is a power rating of 5 to 7 watts. Anything more than that you are looking at transmitting tubes used in broadcast radio stations of old. Extreme high voltage and cost for a well made one and not practical for home use. And yes I know plenty here that have those kind of amps but they are not the common retail ones being offered for sale. There are $25K SET 300b's being offered in the market for a reason. The 300B is the one most desired to have because it was one of if not the best audio tube ever built and by Western Electric of old.
Just to add, a SET amplifier with 5 to 7 watts are perfect for our horns. If not exactly what speaker would they be good for? Duh, most all other speakers do not have the efficiency of our speakers. With most of us, we never get out of the 1 watt window of use no matter what else you hear. Test by some of the best in the industry have proved this to be true. Free market though so buy what you think you need and makes you happy.
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1 hour ago, John Warren said:
Texas Instruments published a 2-stage, phono preamplifier design based on the LM833. Flat RIAA response with noise floor lower than -100dBV. Can be fabricated for about 60 USD at the board level.
I am sure it will sound as good as many of the retail offerings now available.
I have quit chasing the rabbits tail myself. I am happy with my retail ifi Zen phono stage. I have built a few opamp phono stage preamps over the years and they all sound really good to me. The Wayne Colburn project is for those seeking the next level of perfection from one of the best audio designers in the industry. At my age I doubt that I would hear that much of a difference but there are those that can. It is hard for me to see anyone spending $12K for a phono preamp but there are people with the funds and desire to have the best. Nelson has said there is a large market for high end audio and he only desires to have 1 or 2% of the market and he will make a lot of money. The high end market is not the USA by the way, or so he says.
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10 hours ago, The Dude said:
Nice looking project. Any update on this?
The kit was offered in the diyaudio store but they sold out quickly. https://diyaudiostore.com/collections/kits/products/pearl-3-phono-preamplifier
At the project thread at diyaudio they are saying more kits will be available soon. After a project like this appears at the Burning Amp Festival there are plenty that jump on the opportunity to build this kit. After a few months and the new wears off one should be able to buy the kit without a problem. Patience, I am sure it will be a worthy project for anyone desiring high end audio from one of the best in the industry. Wayne Colburn would not be working for Nelson unless he knows what he is doing.
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If you can make the radials work they will be fine and cheaper too. Done that way by the majority of restorers. But then there are some purist that want to keep the original look under the hood. Not me, electrons could care less.
Mouser sells axials but they are not that many being used in new equipment, their largest market for electronic parts.
PM is short for private message on this forum. Click on me in profile and send message. I am slow but will get back to you.
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2 hours ago, the real Duke Spinner said:
I remember when they sold tubes at the drug store. 😀😀😀
Me too. I remember my Dad taking out all the tubes in the TV and going with him to the drug store to test them. It says us old farts have one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel.
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3 hours ago, hron61 said:
Henry, nichicon is on my radar, besides temp what else should I be looking for, they have many to choose from.
I do not worry so much about brands of capacitors as long as the capacitor does the job. Here are some I would choose from if I wanted 105C Nichicon. Nichicon is considered some of the best in the electronic field. https://www.mouser.com/c/passive-components/capacitors/aluminum-electrolytic-capacitors/aluminum-electrolytic-capacitors-radial-leaded/?capacitance=10000 uF&m=Nichicon&maximum operating temperature=%2B 105 C&termination style=Radial&voltage rating dc=16 VDC&instock=y&sort=pricing
I do not know how much you care to learn about capacitors and it gets to be a long journey but if you do care to click on the data sheet of one of the above capacitors and it will provide all the info a engineer or designer could ask for. The only capacitors that are going to affect the sound that much are the coupling caps between the stages. Have you found the schematic of your amp? The first place I look for schematic is here. https://www.hifiengine.com/
Give me some specific values and ratings and whether film or electrolytic and I will look and see what I would consider. A list would be appropriate.
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WD40 is hydroscopic, absorbs water. When cars had distributor caps and they got old they would sweat inside and WD40 was used to spray inside to absorb the moisture where the car would start. Not the oil of choice if moisture is a concern.
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29 minutes ago, the real Duke Spinner said:
btw
Mine is biased hot ...I forget how many mA on the Plate. 55 ??
The more current you run in the tube the better it is going to sound that is until it self destructs. Changing the bias has the same effect as tube rolling. The figure of 55ma on an EL34 sounds about right depending on the plate voltage and the brand of tube of course. You do not want to exceed the max power rating of the tube being about 20 watts for a typical EL34 25 watt tube biased at 80% of max. V X I = P. Eighty % of max is the figure most designers aim for when biasing a tube. This rating is found in the data sheet of the specific tube. For example a JJ EL-34. https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/163/e/EL34.pdf
If you want to play reduce the current from 55ma and listen then turn it back to 55ma and see if you can hear any difference. Do not exceed the mfg current in ma if not sure what you are doing. The sure sign you are running the tubes too hot is red spots on the plates. If see red spots back off current.
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26 minutes ago, hron61 said:
Would you have an idea of what I would replace the Elna Cerafine electrolytic caps with? Can't find any of those. Nichicon? Panasonic FR? Maybe.
Even after I get the amps done I still have to make the power cords and the interconnects as well.
I lost 99.9% of my audio gear back in the day. Forte's, included. But my tube gear stayed by my side thankfully.
Electronic geeks do not fret over brands that much when it comes to parts. If Mouser or Digikey have them any they offer would be fine. Techs have their favorites naturally and mine are Nichicon. Temp rating determines quality so 105C should be better than 85C ones. Below is what Mouser have in stock on the value you are looking for with less expensive first.
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3 hours ago, hron61 said:
First off I'm not good with electronics but I can solder like a mofo. I built these 20 years ago and they turned out wonderful.
Haven't been ran for 18 years (life got in the way).
I figured instead of spending 199.99 ea for a check up that I might as well start replacing all the caps and just get em done now so I won't have to worry about failures later on.
Some of the exact caps are tough to find like the Xicons, Jensens and the Elna Cerafines for instance.
I found most of the Solens and I think I found an Xicon that may work.
It's in the power supply and the 2 factory caps are 10,000uf 10v electrolytic and the ones I found are 10,000uf 16v electrolytic, am I good to go with these?
I'm thinking maybe keep the jensens in and upgrade the rest of the audio side only.
Any ideas on what audio caps work well in these?
The 16V electrolytics will be fine. Any higher voltage rated capacitor will work like say 50V ones as long as they are close to 10K ohms. A few ohms higher will work as well like say 12K ohms at a voltage of the original or higher. You would not want to go much higher in ohms for other reasons I will not go into now.
As far as film caps they are probably fine and not needing replacement. The truth is film caps rarely if ever fail any more so than than a transistor. Changing film caps in the audio circuit from one brand to another will most always change the sound. Sometimes better sounding to you and sometime not so much. Many restorers of electronic equipment are adamant on not changing film caps wanting the sound the engineer thought best for his amplifier to remain. Parts Express sells different brands of film caps among other vendors if you do decide to change them out.
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3 hours ago, aperfectcircle said:
Yes thanks! Aware that SET is also class A, the distinction was more specifically for solid state as if I go that way my preference is for A over A/B - not based on any logic or experience, but from lots (probably too much) of reading and reviews.
What many do not know is that an active device, tube or transistor, sounds best when it has to work the hardest. Most audio designers run tubes on the output stage of a SET tube amplifier at 80% of max for tubes and transistors in a class A amp around 35% to 40% of max. Max for both will sound best, that is before they self destruct. Both are being working hard at 80% and 35% respectically. For tech minded geeks it means we run a lot of current through them both. Tubes are designed to run really hot whereas transistors in class A are generally run at 55C degrees which requires big heatsinks and hardware to keep them cool. This is one of the reasons high end audio buffs prefer class A.
You are probably aware from research already that the audio signal in class A is left as pure as possible and not manipulated as in class B. In class B the transistor is off until it detects a signal then turns on. This creates what is called in a class B PP amplifier as crossover distortion where the audio signal is split into with one section handling the positive part of the signal and another the negative. In a class A/B amplifier the active devices are run with some current where they will be on some but run more current when a larger signal is detected. In other words a class A amplifier at low volumes and turns into class B at higher volumes. Hence the name Class A/B.
I am not that knowledgeable on class D. I have read the principles on class D operation but have not fully absorbed where I understand it fully. Too old and forgetful these days but from what little I remember 5 or more years ago a really high frequency signal is attached to the audio signal then filtered out before driving a speaker. Perhaps more talented people on this forum can explain class D operation better. Class D operation has come a long way since I first read about it in the 70's or 80's and many these days sound really good. I have many of them as well as many of the other forms of amplification.
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SET tube amps are class A. Nature of SET. Class A SS amps run hot but both SS class A and SET are the most linear form of amplification. The audio signal is not manipulated in any way.
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I can understand Claude. I was a SS guy until meeting Maynard on this forum and I now enjoy a good SET tube amplifier.
Talking about 2nd harmonic distortion Nelson has taken the understanding of it to another level. His research has shown the he likes a negative phase 2nd harmonic over a positive one. Really technical stuff. It boils down to the 2nd harmonic can be in phase with the primary signal of out of phase, positive phase of negative phase. We are talking small amounts, something in the neighborhood or .5% or less. The positive phase 2nd harmonic is more in your face where the negative phase is more laid back but with other desirable traits. Nelson has made a career of late with First Watt SS amplifiers with a tube like sound. The best of both worlds tube sound in SS.
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Merry Christmas and God bless All.
We are family after all and like any family we often disagree but we still are the family of Klipsch.
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7 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:
Another opinion concerning Tube Amps, not class D Chip amps. fish out of water..............
MY Qualifier for amps is NEUTRALITY given by SINAD testing. Valves have terrible numbers in comparison, which means they are a preferred distortion over neutrality. Nothing wrong with that preference if it floats your ears.
I had all those in my teens, 20's and 30's. I like the new Millenium better.
I see your point and this debate has been happening since amplifiers were created, straight wire with gain or tubes with some 2nd harmonic and a touch of 3rd. I can and do listen to both having many amplifiers but I do enjoy the tube sound with my choice of music more. This is not to say I do not listen to a class D or a class A/B SS amplifier for weeks, months without changing back to tubes. I am sure you know Nelson Pass likes some 2nd harmonics in a lot of his amplifiers. He often says it is not kidney dialysis but entertainment.
Nice these days to have a choice. I personally believe every serious audiophile should have both, a good SS amplifier and a SET tube amplifier for a different sound to enjoy.
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11 minutes ago, 83 LSIs said:
Obviously enough to make a coupe of posts about it. 😁 (meant in a good natured way)
It has obviously become a contest on who is right for you. You win, GaN transistors are used in some class D circuits. I just posted my experience with class D which was a few years ago. I have not keep up with class D amplification circuits in the last 5 years. No need in being nasty. God bless.
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18 minutes ago, 83 LSIs said:
Do you know how to do an internet search? It's real easy and can eliminate a lot of guess work and silly posts.
A lot of audio companies have been using it for some time.
http://www.atma-sphere.com/en/classD.html
https://gansystems.com/newsroom/extending-lead-in-class-d-audio/
OK, learn something new every day. I did not do a lot of searching because it really did not interest me that much.
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3 hours ago, 83 LSIs said:
JA in Stereophile measurements: "and as the amplifier has an output stage that resembles class-D, I inserted an Audio Precision AUX-0025 passive low-pass filter between the test load and the analyzer."
No need to insert a low pass filter with an A/B output.
Interesting, but I fail to see how those GaN field effect transistors would be used in a class D amplifier. But many new things are happening in electronics continuously so it would not surprise me for the Technic to be class D amplification. All the class D amplifiers I have seen are built around the chip without the need for power transistors. Be nice to see how those GaN mosfets are being utilized in the circuit if class D. I have failed to find a service manual with schematic on that amplifier on the net. The are keeping it a secret.
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High Power SET?
in Talkin' Tubes
Posted
I do not have anyone on ignore, I just have not been following the thread that closely. If I had seen what you posted I would not have said what I did.