jstanton

Burning Bush: To answer your question, I've got a 1600 c.f. room (17 X 12.5 X 8 ft) in which my sub resides. Fairly small considering I've got K-horns in two corners and KLF-30's in the other two. Like a room-sized headphone almost. But why on earth are you going to go sealed in a small enclosure with that Tumult? My feeling is that it's not gonna do all that great in such a small enclosure...doesn't give that monster enough room to "breath", so to speak. But numbers will tell the story in the end... And I have no doubt, and in fact predict that FAB Frankie's dual AV-15s are going to blow us all out of the water. After all, what would you expect? Nevertheless, it will be an interesting set of comparisons. And EAR, pray tell what are the target frequencies you stated once before to assess sub performance? 16, 20, & 32 Hz? And is it max output that you want at these frequencies? Turn it up until the sub starts making bad noises, back it off a little until bad noises stop, take your dB reading and that's your max output at those particular frequencies? Thanks, Jeffrey S.

It also helps to have your amplifier relatively higher than your subwoofer so the electrons get a bit of a boost in speed in your wire as they travel downhill. Acceleration of electrons due to the force of gravity will give a couple dB boost to your subwoofer, depending on how high your amp is, of course.. I've got my amp up on stilts in the corner of the living room and am thinking of putting it up on the roof covered by a tarp in case it rains.

Nice job Formica. Nice job. If it sounds half as good as it looks... Not to worry, it will sound good. The AV-15 is a very good driver, as I'm sure you're aware. That would be an EBS configuration wouldn't it? How's about if I get in on this Battle of the Subs? Burning Pinch, I challenge you and your puny little sub to a duel to zee death. Oh that's right...you have a Tumult too. Sorry. Big bastard, ain't it? Anyway, I sure hope you put that thing in a decent sized box or you may as well stay home and cut bait buddy. I propose we post output of our subs from 10 Hz on up to 100 or so @ 1meter. HEY EAR: what are the best parameters to measure to get an idea of sub performance? I think you said once max output at 16 Hz, 20 Hz, 32 Hz, something like that....I guess what we would be shooting for is max output at those frequencies (maybe throw 10 Hz and 12.5 Hz in just for grins, with additional points being awarded for flatness of curve... I presume you guys plan on Eq'ing your subs at some point, & this would give us a leg up on getting the proper filters lined up for our BFDs. I assume you have BFDs or something equivalent..(Anyhow, I'm gonna need help on the EQ. Let the games begin, and may the best sub win.

Tumult Uber Alles!!!

One other thing. With subs, especially, it is a good thing not to short-change yourself on amplifier power. Bass lovers (such as myself) often tend to push their subs to their "limits" and one thing you do not want is a lot of amp clipping going on. Clipping=distortion=possible fried driver. Best to have some reserve power to handle the stress on the amp that those low frequencies produce. If you have some reserve power you can handle transient response better. More is better than "just enough".

Frankie is right. The Rythmic amp is a very good amp. I have one and it has survived incredible abuse. I had mis-wired my AV-15 sub by inadvertently connecting the Rythmic amp leads to only ONE of the AV-15's voice coils which presented the Rythmic amp with a 2 ohm load, which of course it is NOT rated for. In that configuration it was probably trying to deliver 760 watts or so and was clipping like a bastard, no doubt. I drove that thing for about a month like that, eventually frying the AV-15 due to the resultant amp clipping from trying to drive a 2 ohm load. The amp survived though, and I'm presently using it for something else. Rugged. A lesser amp would have started smoking... You get adjustable rumble and frequency extension settings as well.

Just because you have your sub hooked up to your LFE output DOES NOT NECESSARILY mean you will get no output to your subwoofer with two channel sources. It depends on how you set your receiver to do its bass management. My Yamaha DSP-A1 has SW, MAIN, and BOTH settings in it's "bass management" menu. This was very confusing to me as to what this meant, because I found I could interpret it two ways. The correct way is: if you set it to "MAIN" then you get 2-channel bass going to your SW. If you say "SW" with 2-channel info THEN you get squat from your sub. If you say "BOTH" then you get both of those inputs going to your sub, both the MAIN'S bass and the SW bass (the .1 of 5.1). I would think most receivers should have a comparable sort of set-up for their bass management. There should be a setting on yours to send the main's bass to your SW.

See I warned you...

The Ear will laugh anyway.

Sorry I missed that. But I have what may be even a better idea (even if non-cinventional). If you have a center pre-out, use your extra sub for the CENTER channel. Run it LARGE. I hooked up my KSW-15 to a center pre-out (to complement a KLF-C7 and jbl s-centerII alreaduy on center) and was amazed at how it filled in the front sound stage! More like a wall of sound now. People have no idea what they're missing by using a SMALL center setting. I suppose if you havre no center pre-out you could run the center speaker wires to the sub and use the high pass speaker connects on the sub for your regular center speaker...

Where do we send the money and how much of it do we send????

---------------- On 10/22/2003 3:32:54 PM jzoz01 wrote: my thought was to set the fronts to "large" and use the crossover in the sub to filter out the lows to the fronts. My denon doesn't have a varriable crossover point so it would allow me a little more flexibility. ---------------- Setting the fronts to large is fine, but using the crossover in the sub is not going to filter out lows to the mains. It will filter low to the subs. The most important thing to realize here is that your LFE is a completely SEPARATE bass channel which contains completely DIFFERENT bass "information". With the configuration you're contemplating, unless you send LFE to your mains, you will miss ALL your LFE. Not a good idea...5.ZERO instead of 5.1! Nothing wrong with sending LFE to your mains whichever way you decide to do it, but it would be much simpler to use your LFE for your sub and use your bass management to send LFE to your mains or not. Don't see any advantage whatsoever to making an "end-run" around your bass management system. In fact, you're going to lose some control because if you want your sub to pick up any LFE at all, you are going to HAVE to send LFE to your mains, which is not necessarily a good thing. It might be, but not necessarily. Depending on a lot of factors, you MIGHT get better sound by letting your sub handle all the LFE. That being said, I run all my speakers LARGE and feed LFE to the mains also, but I may let my Denali handle all the LFE depending on how my sub EQ happens to go (in the near future). So, in summary, use your LFE for your subwoofer, as running it off a mains pre-out is going to limit your control over your bass...

There is only one sub which will complement his Bose...a set of Acoustic Visions Everests....

The LFE channel has distinct bass information which is NOT carried by the front channels UNLESS you send LFE to the mains (either "BOTH" or "MAIN" LFE setting on Yamaha receivers, probably the same for other receivers...). So you want to use your LFE to keep things simple...after all you may not want to send LFE to your mains unless they can handle it (few can).

Are you going to run it WITH the Bose?? Or is it for another system?

The 36" and 40" Sony WEGA XBRs. I'm not sure how you would get a better tube than those....

Fire: Dustin is right. He is the one who came up with the configuration for my box (which just happened to be a "Denali" before the Denali came out). You should listen to him too...

You can add weight to the Stryke PRs. The PRs have a cylinder attached to them and you simply add the appropriate amount of modeling clay and zinc-plated washers to each to get the desired weight. I suggested to Kyle that maybe Zinc washers would br OK for an AV-15, but for a Tumult one might want to invest in some silver or 14K gold plated washers to mush into the modeling clay. Dusty, do you think silver or gold-plated washers might give a better group delay? In any case, zinc washers for a Tumult seemed a little "tacky" to me. - Kyle had put two Stryke 18" 2200 gm PRs in my box (which originally housed an AV-15 as opposed to the Tumult), his reason being that "you do not want to go TOO low with this sub"... When I smoked my AV-15 and decided to go Tumult, Adire recommended to add 600 gms to each PR "to give a better group delay"...which I did. Hey Dusty, what tune do I have again with 5 c.f. & two 2800 gm PRs? Could you (or somebody who knows how to do it) shoot me a curve for my sub with 1400 watts power?? I would be greatly indebted.... Thanks, Jeff S.

You can add weight to the Stryke PRs. The PRs have a cylinder attached to them and you simply add the appropriate amount of modeling clay and zinc-plated washers to each to get the desired weight. I suggested to Kyle that maybe Zinc washers would br OK for an AV-15, but for a Tumult one might want to invest in some silver or 14K gold plated washers to mush into the modeling clay. Dusty, do you think silver or gold-plated washers might give a better group delay? In any case, zinc washers for a Tumult seemed a little "tacky" to me. - Kyle had put two Stryke 18" 2200 gm PRs in my box (which originally housed an AV-15 as opposed to the Tumult), his reason being that "you do not want to go TOO low with this sub"... When I smoked my AV-15 and decided to go Tumult, Adire recommended to add 600 gms to each PR "to give a better group delay"...which I did. Hey Dusty, what tune do I have again with 5 c.f. & two 2800 gm PRs? Could you (or somebody who knows how to do it) shoot me a curve for my sub with 1400 watts power?? I would be greatly indebted.... Thanks, Jeff S.

TheEar is correct. You should listen to him... How many LFE outputs do you have on your Yamaha? Mine's got a L,R SPLIT LFE and a MONO LFE (total of 3 sub outs). If your's only has one output, you can always split the LFE signal with a Y-adaptor (see Radio Shack) to run an extra sub. Or daisy chain one sub to the next by going out of the "LINE OUT" of your sub (if it has one) to the "LINE IN" of the next sub...

Formica's right. You should listen to him....

---------------- On 10/15/2003 6:29:12 PM absolutofft wrote: I tried running small, but the 80hz crossover on the denon 3801 wasn't nice AT ALL. It was very abrupt and unpleasant. Therefore I have my front speakers set to large and my sub crossed over at about 50hz. The front speakers are still producing the LFE (RF3's) and the paradigm servo 15 is providing backup from 50hz and below. When I run a frequency sweep the crossover is smoooooooooooooooooooooooooth. I just couldn't get any sort of blending worth talking about when using the small setting. ---------------- FINALLY I found somebody who's running a system like I'm thinking of running mine. MAINS set to LARGE, WITH LFE. Sub for 50 Hz and below. I'm going to try it like that anyway. It makes sense to me. It'll be a cold day in hell before I set K-horns or even KLF-30s to SMALL... thanks

Hmmmm....subs in back under LaScalas...hmmmmm....You COULD definitely put your LaScalas on top of the Denalis as far as them being able to support the weight. Kyle at Acoustic Visions builds the Denalis with TWO 3/4" MDF pieces/side (1-1/2 inch thick) and they are sturdy and inflexible. They're also around 150 lbs or so. However, in reading about subwoofers on the net I have heard that rear placement of subwoofers is to be avoided, the front is better for sub placement. I do not remember the reasoning behind it but it has something to do with the time it takes for the sound to reach you. Maybe somebody else will be so kind as to verify or dispute this. Where I have my Denali is directly in front of my left Klipschorn (shoved up against it, basically), not due to any sonic considerations, but because it was the ONLY place to put it!!. If you can imagiine a 17" X 13" square room, K-horns in two corners (on the long wall), KLF-30s in the back corners, a KSW-15 up front with a 32" Sony TV AND a large wrap-around couch in there to boot...there is no room left for the Denali except cozied up to the Left K-horn. There's only a small strip of floor in front of the couch which does not have speakers or electronics on it. Like sitting inside a pair of headphones practically. In any case, my Denali goes fine up front, directly in front of the K-horn. Get that Denali and you'll be cooking with gas for sure pal.

CAR AUDIO???!!? (followed by choking, gagging, spitting-up sound...) Sheesh, I was worried there for a second Rob. That's different. Okay then, no doubt two 18" PRs will outgun the sealed version of the Tumult (and I don't even know how to use WinISD). I'm sure the RSW-15 is a fine sub. But for K-horns I thought one could do a LITTLE better with a lower tuned sub. It's the LOWEST octave that I want a sub to cover when matched with K-horns. With an RSW-15 I think you would be competing somewhat with the K-horn in a region of bass that I would prefer to let the K-horns handle on their own, UNLESS you are a "True Believer" in SMALL speaker serttings. I am not sold on that concept yet. Why on earth get K-horns just to set them to SMALL? I will run bookshelves before I do that. For one thing, what would be the point in having full-range DD and DTS channels in movies if you are not gonna use them? I have set all channels to LARGE, and will eventually get subwoofers to go with my rear surround KLF-30s. Those channels are created full-range for a reason, and not just so that one can press a button to disable the LF for those channels. They are created full-range because THAT'S HOW THE DIRECTOR INTENDED THEM TO BE. I've already converted my center channel to "full-range" by running a center pre-out on my Yamaha DSP-A1 to a KSW-15 subwoofer (and setting it next to, and slightly behind the TV set). I was amazed to find out that the center channel really IS full-range even for TV programming! !!