Dustin B

1) IMO besides DIY, the PC+ is a yes. However one other option that can compete with the PCi in it's price range is the Adire Dharman. You could also look into having Acoustic Visions or Rutledge Audio costum build you a Tempest or Dayton DVC15" based sub. Although shipping could be somewhat prohibitive. 2) Square rooms are aweful for bass, cubes are even worse I'd stronly recommend you pick up an EQ as well (Behringer FeedBack Destroy is a cheap but decent parametric EQ). The three different sizes within a model are all exactly the same except for net volume and tuning point. The trade off is a little bit of above 30hz output for a slightly larger chunk of extension. I'd go with the 20-39 size (its the middle compromise on everything, middle price, middle above 30hz output and middle extension). Just to give you an idea of how small the difference are though here is a response graph of the PCi sizes. 16-46PCi is in purple, 20-39PCi is in red, and the 25-31PCi is in light blue. 3) The PC+ vs the PCi. PC+ has a 525W BASH amp PCi has a 320W BASH amp. PC+ has a continously variable phase control, PCi has a 0/180 switch PC+ has a 4 different rumble filters you can select from, PCi has one PC+ uses three 3" flared ports, PCi uses a single 4" flared port (gives PC+ 70% more port cross sectional area and is the same port configuration used in the Ultra and SS). PC+ uses the DB12 driver while the PCi uses the ISD driver. SVS says the DB12 and extra power will take the PC+ ~80% of the way to the performance of a Ultra So bottom line is easily worth the $200. Tom and Ron have said, and from what I've seen they are correct that the PC+ will set a new price performance standard. This message has been edited by Dustin B on 09-07-2002 at 11:16 AM

Two 12" drivers, run you around $150 per driver). Overall each one is about 22.5" wide x 45" deep x 45" tall. Properly place making the wall extend the horn you'd have serious output into the low 20hz range. Four of these for sure, maybe even only 2 of these could make you want to leave a room that is 26x34. And with a lot less than 48,000 watts. If what you say is true theEAR, he could only ever use a fraction of it's capabilities or he'd he no hearing left. But I'd bet the last octave performance is the pits.

There are a few theaters out there with very elaborate speaker setups that can do justice to the last octave (requires big bass horns). But they are few and far between. Have you ever heard a movie with appreciable last octave frequencies on a sub that can play those frequencies with authority. Movies like The Matrix, Haunting, Iron Giant, Titan AE, TPM, LOTR, SPR etc sound very different on a sub that can go to down to 30hz as opposed to one that can get down to 16hz with authority. It's a really neat sensation when they have a bass hit you can't hear but feel. There are quite a few of those in the Titan AE ice field scenes.

Don't you just hate Hoffman's pesky iron law. If it wasn't for that one we could have 2" cubes with 1" full range drivers that could do 16hz-22khz +/- 1dB from a 120dB signal in a 10000ft^3 room

BluePrint 1803 - Fs 26.8hz, Xmax p-p 51.7mm, Sd 1217cm^2, linear Vd 6.29L. AuraSound MR18.4 - Fs 17hz, Xmax p-p 63.5mm, Sd 1164cm^2, linear Vd 7.39L. Adire Tumult (15") - Fs 16hz, Xmax p-p 72.6mm, Sd 737cm^2, linear Vd 5.35L We'll hopefully see an 18" version of the Tumult within a year that will have a slightly lower Fs and higher Qts making it better suited for IB use. With an 1180cm^2 Sd it will be capable of over 8L of linear Vd. Oh, and the Sunfire site isn't using Xmax multiplied by Sd to get their total volume displacement numbers they quote for their subs.

The problem with the big pro audio subs meant for use in large areas is although they can really pound from the second octave up, very few can actually do any justice to the last octave. If home theater will be a major part of your listening, or if you like music that has info in the last octave a pro sub will more than likely disappoint. If you are just looking for a sub that can keep up with vintage Klipsch horns from 30hz and up then the pro subs won't disappoint.

Well one of the main reasons more manufactures don't use larger drivers isn't because the smaller ones are faster. It's because the larger ones are a pain in the *** to ship around. It would hurt the bottom line to much to try and ship around 18" drivers in 10+ ft^3 boxes. The other is some men and most women don't like big sub boxes or tubes in the room. quote: And about the "pop",its true a well designed 12" woofer will be faster then a well designed 15 or 18". This simply isn't true, especially over the frequency range a sub covers. Why does Wilson Audio's top sub, the XS use a pair of 18" drivers in a massive cabinet? Have they purposefully designed a "slow" sub? There are many other factors much more important than cone size, that will dictate how "fast" the sub is. I'd put a Maelstrom (18") in a cabinet designed by Dan Wiggins up against any 10" sub out there, and bet money it would fair better than well in a blind comparison for being "fast". It would also have a much easier time going loud as well, and woud only require a couple 100W to do it instead of several kilowatts. TheEAR has one thing right though, producing lots of deep bass requires moving lots of air. To figure out how much air a driver can displace you multiply it's radiating surface area by the length of the drivers linear stroke. One thing to note, is, as the driver gets bigger the radiating surface area goes up very fast. Just do the math with circles (this will be close to drivers but not quite, as I am ignoring angles, surrounds, dustcaps and what not). dia - surface area (inches and square inches) 8 - 50 10 - 79 12 - 113 15 - 177 18 - 255 So a 10" driver would have to move over 3.2 times as far as an 18" driver to move the same amount of air. Even though the 18" drivers diameter is only 1.8 times larger than the 10" driver. Another thing to remember is as the driver moves farther, it needs a larger surround to allow that movement. The bigger the surround gets the more radiating surface area it looses, requiring the stroke to be even longer. Also the longer a drivers stroke the more difficult it is to keep that stroke linear and the drivers other parameters that greatly affect how it sounds in a given allignment stable. This aspect of driver design goes way over my head though. I can't say I understood it all, but this paper can get the point across even if you don't complete understand it. http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/InDepthBrahmaVsMASS.pdf It's also very difficult to keep the Fs of small extreme excursion drivers that work in small boxes low. And without a low Fs you run into some problems when trying to get them to play the last octave cleanly. You can still tune the enclosure low, but don't expect as good of results as a driver with a lower Fs (unless you are filling a tiny car cabin with bass, then it doesn't matter all that much). A tiny sub just can't compete with a big one when deep, accurate and effortless bass is the goal. While the little driver in the little cabinet is eating gobbs of power, compressing and changing critical parameters while it is flapping inches back and forth trying to move enough air, the big driver in a big box is requiring very little power and is well within an easily controlled range of motion with its' parameters stable. This message has been edited by Dustin B on 08-28-2002 at 12:31 PM

That would be ThomasW. He is the guy running that forum I linked to above. Picks of his "Twelve Shivas Dancing" IB are on that site. The box is extremely strong and uses a floor jack to ensure a solid bond to the floor of the above listening room (his basement isolates the front wave from the back). He has it wired as a pair of 3ohm loads driven by a two channel pro amp with less than 200W a channel and can still do well in excess of 120dB down into the last octave.

Yep, infinite baffles are mondo cool. don't quite understand this tuning though as IB subs are not supposed to be ported. Did he LT it to an F3 of 15hz or something? Anyways for those interested here's the place to go for IB info. http://f20.parsimony.net/forum36475/ The link is to a forum dedicated to IB subs. Note the two links at the top though. One is a picture gallery of many different IB installs, the other is an FAQ with an answer to pretty much every important question about an IB sub. Put four of Adire's new Tumult drivers (has twice the Vd of a SVS TV12 driver) in an IB with a Linkwitz Transform that gets the Q up around 0.5 and the F3 under 20hz, add a nice parametric EQ and you will have an unbelievable sub. Say $1200-$1600 for the drivers, $500-$1000 for the amp and another couple hundred for a nice EQ. You'll have a sub that could compete with 8 SVS Ultras for output and also very few subs could compete with its' sound quality This message has been edited by Dustin B on 08-24-2002 at 01:06 AM

theEARs. Take any one of those speakers pictured on Rutledge Audio. Have them professionally photographed in soft light and retouched, like was done to the Aerial photos, and they will look just as good.

theEARs, Thanks for that wonderfully well thought out and worded response. It so clearly showed the depths of your knowledge and experience with subs. I can no longer argue with you as this last response confirms that everything you say about subs is irrefutable.

Rutledge Audio . The work Brian does is just excellent. If you gave him a 1/3 of what you would pay for a SW12 he could build one of these DIY style subs for you with whatever veneer and stain you want (this is completely finished, you do no assembly yourself, although you can arrange it so there is some for you do to if you want). Check out some of the finishes on the GR Research monitors he has in the pics section of the site.As for other actual commercial manufactures and not costum stuff, many have similar or better performance. But I will admit few if any have as nice of a finish. I'm sure there are some, I just haven't done the looking as I doubt I'll ever buy a commercial sub again. This message has been edited by Dustin B on 08-18-2002 at 12:43 AM

Don't forget the SVS PC+ will hopefully be available by the end of this month. If you like it deep a 16-46PC+ will be $800. And if you have some tools and the idea of building your own sub enclosure appeals do you. It's possible to build an excellent (output, extension and sound quality) sub for half that budget.

ThomasW set out to copy the Aerial's basic layout. But that sub is 2 layers of 3/4 MDF on all sides, the baffel is 3 layers and all the braces are 3/4" MDF. It's about twice the size of a SW12. The driver is the Stryke HE15 (I think he has a BluePrint 1503 in it now though) and the port is 6" PVC pipe with 6" port flares from NewFoam. It weighs well in excess of 300lbs. That's the great thing about DIY. Whatever veneer and stain/finish you want can be used. How good it can look, as I said before, depends entirely on how much time you spend on it. I've seen pictures of a few enclosures done by Eric M Jones, Brian Bunge and Hank Frankenburg that would do just fine sitting beside a SW12 for finish quality. And as I said, I'm not denying the Aerial is a great sub. It just ain't the king of the hill as you proclaimed and is over priced. And I don't think my so called bashing is all that creative, it's pretty obvious stuff I've pointed out. This message has been edited by Dustin B on 08-17-2002 at 06:09 PM

I wouldn't call Aerial owners snobbish. I'm sure some are though, mind you so are many Bose owners. So money spent on a speaker won't indicate this. The SW12 is a beautifully finished and well constructed sub. I will however call the Aerial at list price and anywhere close to list price very over priced for what you get. As for build quality and finish, you mean like this (pictures aren't the greatest though): All it takes is some research on techniques, time and effort. This message has been edited by Dustin B on 08-17-2002 at 04:40 PM

14.75" will tune it to 20hz. Whether you should or not I'm not really sure. There are benefits both ways for music. Send Adire an email with your associated equipment and goals for the sub (along with the 275L net volume spec and that you will be using a 6" pvc pipe for the port) and see what they say.

A good glue job will be stronger than the the MDF or sonotube. You'll break the MDF or rip the sonotube before the glue joint gives. If you use small finishing type nails you don't have to worry about it splitting the mdf. The purpose of the nails is to just hold the endcaps in place until the glue dries.

Lets recap then: theEARs: quote: Aerial SW12(the king of the HILL,no question about it) Dustin B: quote: I see you mention the Aeriel SW12 as king of the hill no question. Is this in output as well as sound quality or just sound quality? theEARs: quote: Bass quality and quantity.The Aerial has nothing to fear from the SVS Ultra.Solid to 16Hz it delivers where most fall and has very few peers in output down low. With the info Tom has provided I'd put a $500 DIY sub (if the alignment came from somebody like Dan Wiggins or ThomasW/JonH) up against an Aerial SW12 any day. If the pre/pro being used wasn't up to snuff I'd have to up that budget a little bit to go with an HS series amp that would give the necessary connectivity to allow it to blend with the mains properly, but it would still be under $750. And I certainly don't wish I had an SW12. I wish I had a Crown K1 or K2 powering 4 Tumults in an infinite baffel with an LT chip giving it a Q of somewhere between 0.5-0.6 and an F3 of around 14hz. With a nice EQ to tame any room peaks my wished room treatments didn't take care of. Some day I'd still like that port/leg measurement on the Studio if you don't mind though.

In that case the 250W PE amp with the remote would be well worth the extra cash.

Interesting. I would have thought the SW12 driver was more capable than that. I also would have thought it was underhung as well, guess not. Given that info it would appear a well designed Shiva based sub could come extremely close to the SW12's performance. And a Dayton 12" Titanic based sub could surpass it. Almost $5000 list for something that could be matched by less than $500 with DIY You sure you've actually heard one theEARs? Thought you hadn't played much with PRs Tom? This message has been edited by Dustin B on 08-16-2002 at 10:20 PM

So you're saying a TV12 will outgun a SW12 driver and you estimate that a single Ultra would fair better than well against a SW12? Gotta love internet direct

Manuel, how did you end up porting it. 2-3xFP3, 2xFP4 kits or 6" pvc?

That's what I'm not entirely sure about. The plate amp isn't a speaker, it just wants a copy of the signal to convert to line level, so it can pass it through its' low pass filter and then amplfy it again. I think an email to Dan is in order for the best way to accomplish this hook up. Running both the A and B outputs of a receiver at the same time cuts power quite a bit by my understanding. Unless this receiver is different than most and has extra amp channels for the B speakers and doesn't just share with A.

Yep, Tom has mentioned that he can get the three 3" flared ports in an Ultra to start to compress when pushed in the last octave. But three 3" ports have 40% more surface area then a single 4" port, which will help a lot. (Edit I guess I did the math wrong here, should have said "a single 4" port only has 60% of the cross sectional area of three 3" ports) I've read reports of people demoing the Aerial SW12 with the DTS Haunting and a few other bass heavy DVDs. When getting close to reference they encountered port noise (bad port noise they described as a farting sound). The Aeriel SW12 is seriously underported. I'd bet in blind testing a single SVS Ultra would fair very well against an Aeriel SW12 (Ultra has very similar driver, similar power, more porting and a lower tune). If you have access to a Rel StudioIII, humor me and measure the port diameter and length (oh and the length of the legs too). With that info I can quite accurately calculate what the sub is tuned too. I also highly doubt the two 10" drivers in this sub will be able to out displace a single Ultra driver. Granted it has more port surface area, but without the Vd and a tune that is too high, you get the idea. I seem to remember reading the THD numbers on the Sunfire where up in the 30-50% range when pushed down low. Servos prevent THD increase when pushed, ultimately by limiting output (and a lot of people really don't like what a servo does to the sound of a sub). There are some non servo subs that can play very low, very loud and keep the THD down. The SVS Ultra being one of them. The Paradigm PW2200 even has more clean (<10%THD) output capablity than a Servo15. I would so like to get one of Adire's new Tumult drivers in a 6ft^3 enclosure tuned to 16hz with a pair of Stryke dual spider 18" passive radiators and a Crown K1 powering it measured by TN. I think some people would be just a bit surprised at the results. This message has been edited by Dustin B on 08-16-2002 at 12:43 PM

Yep, it will work for that. Although I'm not sure what will happen when you run both the A and B speaker outputs at the same time. Try it and see I guess. I'd compare it with running both of the A (have two sets of speaker wire of each A output, one to the sub and one to the k-horns), and one on the A and one on the B and see if it makes a difference.