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Ok Duke, I saw a picture of L7's with drivers removed on Lansing Heritage Forum. My pair had a peculiar lower midrange coloration, and some brightness UNLESS I used the Luxman M 117 amp. I got curious, and removed my cone drivers. The 8 inch lower mid had just a LITTLE sheet of fiberglass in it, and the upper midrange had a balled up piece of fibergalss in it. This looked totally different then the one on Lansing Heritage. So, I decided to experiment with Kapok damping material, additional fiberglass, and dacron. To make a LONG story short, I am still playing ! I THOUGHT I "had" it the other day, but further listening revealed un acceptable coloration. Tell me about the amount and positioning of YOUR L 7's damping Duke ? Ever been IN there to have a peek ?

Duke, I have had them hooked up for quite awhile now. I have done extensive with different amounts and kinds of damping material for both the 8 inch lower mid range/upper bass, and to the mid range drivers rear chamber. I made a STARTLING discovery in the process. IF you are interested in hearing about my discoveries on the L 7, let me know ??

Ok, I updated my horrible review of them,, read http://www.audioweb.com/Review/ReviewViewerBottom.asp?reviewid=17383 They DO need a big amp, and it has GOT to have no harshness. The Adcom 585 is just OK on them, but the Luxman M 117 really makes em sing! Gotta bi wire em Duke, or at least get rid of those awful sounding metal straps. At least replace them w/good wire ? Bi wire really opens em up, and cleans up the upper range. They want to be where they want to be, almost like a Horn, LOL IF you put a Gun to my head, I would still take my 801's, but betqween my Von Schweikert VR 4 jr's and the L7 it would be a tough decision. The Von Schweikerts image better, and are a BIT more musical with I think a better overall midrange and top end. But they do not have the bass slam of the L 7's, nor can they play near as loud, or sound as good doing it. Now remember, both the VR 4 JR and the 801 were almost 3 times the cost of L 7's! I still do not believe I have gotten ALL I can out of the L 7's. I like them, especially with the Luxman M 117. The Luxman M 117 is an almost tubey sounding solid state amp w/o a BIT of grain. It has the Sanken Output Devices in it. It is pure magic with the L 7's. Hey, BTW Crow don't taste too bad. I am just glad I coukld edit my original bad review of the L 7.

Ok, you ain't gonna believe this Duke. The guy who sold em to me had em unhooked for 4 years! yep, the wife said they had to go, he bought Bose Cubes, and they SAT unhooked in his living room all that time. She THANKED me for taking those "big black things" out of her home. Initially, I was impressed, finding them very forgiving and easy to listen to. Lately, they are impressing me less and less! Not that they are NOT good, because they are, but they are NO match for my 801's, not even close. They are smooth, play loud, image OK but have colorations. Gotta be CAREFUL with them NOT to place em real wide apart, the 8 inch mid drivers dispersion narrows if you do this, and they lose what magic they have. I am STILL playing with them, and overall I like them, somewhat. I HONESTLY feel the little Infinity IL 40 is a much better speaker, less coloration, better imaging, more musical. I haven't given up on them, so the "Jury" is still out. They have a wonderful ability to play loud, and not SQUAK at you, like most Horns do. And, they WILL Rock. I find the JBL Titanium Dome Tweeter to be just a so so tweeter, with a bit of tizzy coloration. But I STILL haven't even bi amped em, and maybe it is the back EMF the tweeters do not like. The Luxman M 117 is NOT the amp for them, neither was the Adcom 585. Moscode 600 is sick, getting modded, and using the big JVC RX DP 9 receiver. Stay Tuned, gotta go, Lightning Storm !!!

Yes they did.

I haven't even made the clip indicators on the Luxman M 117 flicker Duke. I plant to try some of my other amps on them, maybe bi amp em.

Here are My SECOND Impressions of the L 7's Duke - I posted this at Lansing Heritage Forum JBL L 7'S - The Second Time Around My Grandpa owned Hartsfields, and gave me his old L 65 Jubal's. So, I was in a "JBL Family" as a young man. My Jubal's got ripped off years ago when my home was broken into, and I had no insurance, just renting back then. I always had a special place in my heart for JBL. I saw the L7 JBL's at my local Circuit City, and did some research on them. I saved my money, but bought them mail order to get a deal. My FIRST pair were absolutely dreadful, and I gave them a very bad review on Audio Web, maybe even on Audio Review too. They were screechy, did not image, and just plain sucked. Last week, I saw some local for sale. At first, I just laughed, and ignored them. But Duke Spinner on Klipsch forum has em, and likes em. I came over here, and saw others like them too, so I thought WTF, and bought them. The last pair I sold local to some kid. I had em bi amped with Krells, played Metallica for him, and they were gone! So, i paid for these, and the guy even delivered em for me in his pickup! He liked em, but the old lady did not,,so she forced him to buy Bose. Poor Guy, you could see it in his eyes he was having a hard time saying good bye to his old friends! I will cut through the chase and say right now THIS pair sounds NOTHING like my last pair. This IS very much an Audiophiles Speaker. They image all over the place. They are ANYTHING but bright, actually quite recessed in the midrange, and a LITTLE over damped. We will get to THAT later. When these first got here, they sounded a little strange. They had sat in the living room of the previous owner, unhooked for over a year. I played em low at first, gradually increasing level, and then they started sounding better. After about an hour of play, I hit em with some demanding RAP Cd's of my kids. Then, I did my little "trick" I do to all old speakers. I intentionally and carefully heat up the drivers, then, I turn amp all the way down, and CAREFULLY push each cone driver all the way in to it stops. I "massage" each driver like this a few times, slowly and carefully. Bud Fried taught me this. It seems Ferrofluid can SOMETIMES get stuck, or dirt/dust gets into the coil. I heat em up, and do one speaker at a time. When finished, the speakers from California finally came back to life! Elton John's' Saturday Night's alright for fighting was the very best I have ever heard on any speaker, including my 801's. Dexy's Midnight Runners song "Come on Eileen" was devoid of screech/ Stevie Nicks voice was free of peaks singing Rhiannon, as was Christine McVie's. The L7's really show their stuff on complex, demanding material, easily separating and revealing, in a soft spoken way, what is on the recording. I think they can be improved greatly by playing with the damping material in the speakers. The sound is definitely over damped. I think JBL was trying to get the LAST little bit of coloration out of them, and was a BIT enthusiastic in their amount of stuffing. Guess what ? It didn't work, compared to the B&W 801's they do have some coloration. TOO much damping robs musical bloom, and my instincts tell me there are great improvements to be made by playing with damping material and amounts. There IS a slight mid range recession compared to the 801's, and this give em a laid back character. The L7 Tweeter is no match for the 801 tweeter, but nothing is. No big deal. The L7 gives a big, non fatiguing sound, and the louder you play em, the more they like it. Right now, I am using a Luxman M 117 amp and a Parasound PreAmp. My Moscode 600 is being modded, and will be back shortly. In short, I am VERY impressed with these speakers. They are not even bi wired at the moment. If one reads my original review from long ago on these, you will see I WANTED to like these. The first pair must have been defective, because these kick butt, in an audiophile way. Bass is OK, but I have corner mounted 9.5 cu ft 15's with gobs of power on them. As long as a speaker goes down to meet my subs, I am happy. From 4 hours of listening, I must say L 7 is indeed an impressive speaker. Not surprisingly, the speaker from California did the Beach Boys justice, and Red Hot Chili Peppers too! These LOVE Rock. Boston was great, so was REO. Jewels voice and Piano was just right, in a laid back way. On the Live Farm Aid CD, there is a Live Version of "Copperhead Road". This was the best I have ever heard that song, it is a real ***** to get right. James Ingrahams voice lacked a LITTLE body compared to the 801's, but I think some damping mods will fix that ? On Village People's "Macho Man", the trumpets were a bit muted, and the midrange recessed compared to the 801's. Not right, not wrong, just a different perspective then 801' that is all. I gotta get back and listen some more, just wanted to share.

Yeah, it would be a toss up, in my mind between the 4430 and the Altec 19. Suprised you have the Klipschorns so highly rated ?? They ccan't be stock, and must be highly modified ? The Klipschorn has a woody coloration in lower mids, and a screechy sound, and YES, I have tried em with every amp known to man, SET, Chip Old Tube, New Tube, etc, etc, etc. IMHO, to "fix" em you need a mid horn to play way lower, OR incur the colorations of the folded horn box! The only part of a Klipschorn I would want is the bass bin, as a platform for better drivers and horns. I LIKE the 4430 JBL a lot, Never recall hearing a Valencia ? Grandpa had JBL Hartsfields and Klipschorns. He bought the Klipschorns while he still had the Hartsfields, and I remember him not liking them nearly as much. Mark Levinson loves the Klipschorns, with EQ of course. Actually, the Klipsch CF 4's can sound really good with tone controls. Just don't like using them ..... Personally, I find most Klipsch speakers way too "up front" and in yer face sounding. I prefer a much more "relaxed" presentation. WHY someone don't re make the Model 19 Altec is beyond me ? I LOVE those things, and when one comes up local here in Tampa, watch out! There is ALWAYS "room" in my home for a Model 19, even though I have 14 pairs of speakers now, LOL Can't quite do the VOTT thing, holding out for the 19 Got some Frazier Dixilander, played with em, time to send em on Duke. They were fun, and have an excellent sounding Atlas Phenolic diapragm compression driver, and a folded horn box. I think I am gonna part em out, and might KEEP the folded horn boxes ? They are small and well made, will fit in a car trunk. I MIGHT explore some longer throw more power handling drivers and make bass machines out of em for the kids ? The Frazier Dixielander have wooden horns, usable down to 1000 hz or so. The Atlas driver was an SA 333 , specially made for Ed May and Jack Frazier. Think I will pick Wayne Parham of Bill Fitzmaurice's brains about what I can realistically expect bass wise with the little folded horn box ? IF I could get it to go down to 40 or 50 hz, it COULD be terrifying in a car ? Ya get all that free gain ya know ?

Already into it, thanks Duke!

Ya know, that could be ? Or out of phase drivers hooked up wrong ? Reading the manual, one can even quad amp em. That way, with amps with level controls, you should be able to make em sound like you want. Too bright, reduce tweeter amp gain, too foreward, reduce mids, etc, etc. Off the speakers you have posted that you own, I would say the Altec 19 would be the best, followed by the Cornwall 2's for the high efficiency stuff ? Am I right ?

Interesting they lit up the K2 ? I drove em years ago in several ways, one big amp, two amps solid state, two amps, one tube, one solid state, etc, etc. I rearranged my room, they just sounded bad. I must have had a bad Pair Duke, because others seem to like them ? I got plenty of power, but nothing like a K2, except my bridged Ashly FET 500's. I got a Moscode 600, and a Luxman M 117, an Adcom 585, and several smaller amps. Hey, can yours image Duke ? Mine did not image at all, I mean ZERO depth, not much outside speakers, and a persistent hardness and tinny ness.

Just fer you Duke. Actually, I owned a pair back when they first came out. I thought they sucked too. I even gave them a horrible review on Audio Web, go look ? A used MINT pair came up 150 miles from me, so I went and got em. Couldn't say no for what I paid for them. IF they still sound as bad as I remember, for what I got in em, I will turn some big Mono Blocks "loose" until their Aquaplas drivers cry for mercy! I SEE you own them, and several people LIKE them, imagine that ? MAYBE it was my room at the time, or other components that made em sound so bad ? Anyway, I am a glutton for punishment, and just haven't learned to say NO when a deal comes my way, LOL You can BET I will keep you posted Duke, on my second go round with the L 7's. Why don't you take your computer over to Audio Web, and READ my horrible review of them ? This new room I am in is large and quite dead acoustically. MAYBE I will be able to better tolerate their "shrillness" this time ? We shall see Mr Spinner, we shall see ? They are gonna be up against some stiff competition here .....

How do I say this w.o coming off as mean John ? But the speakers you show as owning,,the LaScala's and Heresy's, are two of the brightest speakers I have ever heard. Personally, I thought the LaScal's were among the worst speakers I have ever heard, one big midrange screech machine. The Heresys are just plain bright to my ears, not as midrange screechy as La Screecha;s, just bright. Then, the Acurus stuff I have owned was hard and bright sounding too. People can sometimes get used to a particular sound, and perhaps you are accustomed to what I consider a bright, screechy, midrangy sound. Not that you are wrong, and I am right, but people all hear differently, and listen to and for different things. I have owned lots of Klipsch speakers, and kept few of them. I liked The Old CF 4 version 1's, as long as tone controls were handy, and liked the OLD Forte's. My Cornwwalls were in need of tweeters and caps, so I will reserve judgement on them. I HAVE heard Heresy's with tubes sound OK. The Fraziers I now own, the Dixielanders, are a total departure from the Klipsch sound. I can see why you would find them unimpressive. They are balanced, laid back, and warm, not in yer face midrangy with hyperdetail. What sound is right ? Why,, the one you own, of course. Some like steak rare, I want mine cooked. Some like blondes, some like brunettes ? Some EVEN like George W Bush ??? [:^)]

My old Cornwalls had good bass. I woulld call the two pairs of Klipschorns I have owned, and the Belle's some kind of resonators. Lower midrange resonators, to be exact. I can hear the colorations in these designs, NOT that the Fraziers don't have them either. I just seem better able to ignore them in the Fraziers. Maybe because I don't expect as much from them, I don;t know ? BTW, what is a Frazier Monte Carlo ? Can you post a picture of it ? Is it a Horn type speaker like my Frazier Dixielanders ? Hey, I just googled one http://members.aol.com/KDresch/frazier.html It is a canventional speaker. I have found that speakers like this using a large diameter tweeter can have a VERY good midrange. This is because a large diameter tweeter makes a simple crossover possible due to the large tweeters ability to play down low. However, extreme highs are compromised, as is dispersion. But, if you place the tweeters at ear level, and aim em right at ya, it can be fun.

I would buy every Dixielander I could get at that price. Shoot, the Altec 816 A compression driver and horn has to be worth near that alone ? Many do not know about these, but word is getting out. They have a different :soul: then most Klipsch. Klipsch has a more west coast sound, these are more east coast. A different perspective, to be sure. I much prefer a more laid back sound myself, more east coast. The Dixielanders are devoid of low bass, and the highest highs. But what they do reproduce, for a high efficiency speaker, they do pretty well. An overlooked design, IMHO

I think many are beginning to wake up, and are snapping up some of the older Frazier designs. I met PWK back at the Detroit Audio Show at Cobo Hall in Detroit. It was back in 1970, I was 15 at the time. He was a kind, patient man, pleased that I was interested in Ham Radio and Audio. He wore a big button that said only "BULLSHIT". I also met Bob Carver at that show, he was showing the Phase Linear Andromeda speakers. Onkyo was there too, and impressed me with their love of music. Technics was showing off their excellent "Linear Phase" speakrs, looked like pregnant Kangaroos, but imaged like Dahlquists, and sounded similar too.

Like the old sansui receiver, and Scott tube amp! Those fraziers I am un familiar with. Seems like an attempt to get good polar coverage with the 4 arrayed horns ? They look like piezo's ? Contrary to what common audiophiles will tell you,, I have heard GOOD Piezo's, really good ones too! Back when I lived in Seattle, a guy llocally used to build Horn Speakers. He would measure 10 Motorola Piezo's to get a good one, and knew what he was dojing crossover wide. Then, he would actually go into the Piezo itself, and shaved it I think ? The highs from his finished products were sweet, effortless, and breathtaking.

Go get the Fraziers. I have only heard the Dixielanders, and some other ones that I do not remember the models ? Both had a non bright sound, my kind of speakers. I HATE squakiness, brightness, and screech. I was just listening to my new Dixielanders, they still sound good today. Colored, yes, in comparasion to my B&W 801's. But still very musical, they almost beg you to listen to them, a rare quality.

Agreed! The little dixielanders should be revived. A small, efficient speaker that plays loud w/o strain, and sounds good. I think the secret to these is the paper cone woofer ? An almost "lost art" these days. Many have forgotten just how good a well designed Paper cone can sound. We got Poly shoved down our throats years ago. Frazier did a PRETTY good job of reducing colorations from their box. It does have colorations compared to my B&W 801's, and the louder it gets, the worse they are. True of almost every speaker in my experience, EXCEPT the B&W 801, and very few others. But, at normal listening levels one hardly notices this is a high efficiency design, except for it's effortlessness, and easy, unforced detail.

Well, I am impressed with the little Dixielanders. ALL speakers do somethings wrong, and these are no exception. But, at least these do not screech at you like many Klipsch designs I have owned do. I have also owned some quite good Klipsch designs too, but every Klipsch speaker I have ever heard was voiced a bit bright or aggressive, for my tastes at least. The little Dixielander's "Sins", or deviations from perfection, do not drive me up a wall.. My 2 pairs came out of a Movie Theatre in Cleveland, Ohio. They still have the hooks in them to suspend them from behind the screen. So, you KNOW they are really good, LOL After all, thousands of people paid good money over 20 years time to hear them. Hey,,just kidding, of course, but they are fun to listen to. They make me want to listen to them, and I will get into them, and see what needs updating

I just bought 4 Frazier Dixielanders, only have 2 in house right now, going back tomorrow for the rest/ Listened for 3 hours toninght, and in a word, incredible. These are seriously good speakers, w/o the squak, colorations, and harshness I have had from several pairs of Klipsch speakers I have owned. Like I said, I listened for 3 hours, something I find it hard to do with most Klipsch speakers I have owned. Oh, and I have owned 3 pairs of Klipschorns, Belles, Cornwalls, La Screecha's. Best Klipsch speakers I have owned were Original Fortes, and CF 4 version 1's. The Forte's had great bass, great detail, but just a BIT too much :on edge" for me. Maybe tubes would have cured it ? The CF 4's were wonderful, IF you used tone controls, I don't like to, so they had to go too. The Frazier Dixielanders ? They are MUSICAL, sweet, warm, almost Wurlitizer, with that rich, warm, sound, rolled off in highs a bit, fat, tight bass, what little there is. They ROCK too, for little guys. I can't WAIT to get inside em, and restore them.

i haven't been able to find the details of the network change but i think it was a crosspoint change and level change for the hf and heavier cone woofers with a lower tuning. we did play with a digital processor on the epic series and it was one of the first times that i decided that my systems at home were going to digital processors. Roy Delgado I thought series 1 and 2 had the good, heavier woofers, and series 3's changed woofers ? If series 2 indeed have the same woofers of their vastly superior version one cousins, then all is not lost. One need only re tune to the version one tuning frequency by changing the 2 1/2 inch series 2 ports to the 6 inch ports of series 1. I have a RANE 24 db stereo 2 way electronic crossover using fixed linkwitz Riley filters with adjustable slopes. I strongly feel the drivers in my CF 3's and the horn are quite good, and might benefit from active crossover ? Not that the stock crossovers aren't good, I just think that biamping with electronic crossover might be better ? I know you are busy Roy, and it was a long time ago when the Epic series was designed. But there are several of us Epic owners out here who would love to "return" our series 2 Epic series speakers to their original "Glory". I understand that because of the woofer change in the series 3's, this is not feasible. But IF series 2 drivers are same as series 1, a couple new longer ports, and a little soldering in the crossovers, and we are there! I could KILL myself for ever selling my CF 4 series 1's!

Roy, you can't have the CF 3's. They are going in the system tomorrow. I have kept these CF 3's because they are beautiful whitewash oak. No, they ain't CF 4's, and not version ones either, but still very musical! They are version 2's. I WISH you could find the "small crossover change" you guys did to the version 2's someday ? I know the ports were shortened on the version 2's. The version ones had 6 inch ports, version 2 has 2 1/2. Box tuning was raised, but guess what, so was woofer distortion! Isn't that how it goes ? And, these woofers play midrange, yikes .... I wonder Roy if it was a crossover slope or a level change ? If it was just a level change, one could passively biamp with two amps if the top amp, or both, had level controls ? Then, manipulation of the horns level relative to woofers could be changed. I can't wait to try the CF 3's with the digital EQ ....!