JoshT

Wow -- quite a thread! I sympathize with Big Bean's sentiments, but agree that it is not pratical to avoid all things made in China. My policy is to buy American or Canadian when reasonably possible, but not at the expense of quality and not at the expense of reason. For high enders, it would be pretty easy to buy goods that are assembled in North America, but as HornEd points out, the components will still often be from Asia. For example, Cary, CJ, BAT, VTL, etc., are going to have Russian or Chinese tubes, right? And if you cannot afford the above, then you are stuck with electronics made in Asia (where wages are low), though the USA still makes excellent speakers, as we all know (even if you don't like horns -- but then why would you be here?)! HornEd -- I want the recipe for pea fish soup. Yum!

Thanks for your reply Mobile, The Creek OBH-12 is an interesting idea. I had seen an add for it in Audio Advisor, but didn't really pay much attention to it at the time and am not sure how it works. I assume that the switching device works by having three line inputs and then one output that goes into one of the line inputs of the preamp or integrated amp? Is that right? How does the volume control work? Can the Creek work as a preamp alone, or does it only work as a volume/switching device together with a preamp or integrated amp? I do have a phono preamp already. I have the little MM Creek, which looks just like the OBH-12, in one system, and the Rotel in the other system, and I like them both fine. The Rotel strikes me as being a little less dynamic and detailed, but as warmer and fuller. According the the Cary website, the SLI-80 uses the following tubes: 6922 input buffer preamp; 6SN7 pre driver/phase inverter; 6550 output tubes (as you mentioned); and 5U4 Rectifiers. I understand from a poster on AudioAsylum that the tubes are from China and I'd be better off replacing them with Russian tubes (Sovtek or Svetlana I assume). Could you comment on that? Could you comment on which of the tubes most affect the sound and which you would recommend replacing (assuming I go with the SLI-80, which is far from certain). How much money are we talking about? Sorry for coming back at you with more questions. I appreciate the input.

Hi Mobile, Thanks -- that is good advice. Leland at Goodwins did offer to let me take the Cary home for a few days. In fact, that was his suggestion without me even asking. I think they don't sell many of these, and they have last year's model there for demonstration purposes in case someone else is interested. You are right that I should not buy it under any other condition. That will let me hear it with the B&W CDM1SEs and the Heresys in my own room with my equipment. I really have not looked around much, and perhaps I am rushing into this. I welcome any suggestions. Please bear in mind the following: 1. I really do want a remote control (for volume at a minimum). Because of a disability, I am not willing to get up each time I need to adjust the volume. 2. I would like the amplifier to be relatively flexible as far as what speakers it can drive (efficiency and impedence), and the Cary seems to have that flexibility. 3. I am not really into DIY, so if I buy used I would want some assurance that the tubes aren't about to die. I am willing to deal with some maintenance, but not constant tweeking. 4. I would want at least 3 inputs (for turntable, CD player and tuner); tape loop is not important. Actually, I am getting intrigued by the Wave 8s because they are SO CHEAP, but then I would need a preamp (with remote), and they seem to get very mixed reviews. Hmmmm. Anyway, thank you for any further advice you can give me.

Hi Khorn58 and DVoise, The Music Box in Wellesley truly was an interesting (and somewhat strange) store. As Khorn58 knows, it sold high end audio equipment in the rear of the store. That is where I was bitten by the Klipsch bug. Since about 1979 I wanted a pair of Heresys -- but didn't have the money back then. I finally got my Heresys (IIs) last weekend from DVoise (see our posts below). In the front of the Music Box they sold records on one side and stationary and greeting cards on the other side! But since our country has become more generic and full of strip malls and national chains, places like the Music Box are all but gone. New England HiFi in Portland (or Scarborough) Maine is a rare example of a great family owned hifi store that still has character and sells Klipsch among other highend equipment. I actually think Mr. Bell of The Music Box was a bit of an arrogant and snooty guy -- at least as much as the folks at Goodwins. I agree, Khorn58, to a certain extent with your assessment of Goodwins, but really it is not that bad. I have gotten to know Leland and Ralph and Steve quite well, and they know that their anti-Klipsch, anti-horn attitude doesn't work with me. We have established that, and they have let it go. In fact, they admit to some of the good qualities of Klipsch when you press them. I have bought most of my electronics from them and I think they are fair and have good stuff. Their snooty attitude is pretty skin deep once they know you. They have been good about setting equipment up for me in my home for little or no extra charge (which is important because of a disability I have). I hear you on price of the Cary, but I did like the sound and I like the features I mentioned above. I really do need a remote control and I like the headphone feature too.

Perhaps I'm getting a little nutty here, but I am seriously considering buying the Cary SLI-80 integrated amplifier. It's expensive at about $2,700 discounted, but seems to have a lot going for it, including decent power (50wpc in triode mode and 80wpc in pentode mode), remote control for volume, headphone jack, and it is a true all tube design. I listened to it yesterday at Goodwins Audio in Boston with some B&W CDM1NTs and it seemed plenty strong with those power hungry speakers. I picked them on purpose, because I have CDM1SEs, which I would probably still listen to from time to time (though the Heresys would be the primary speakers). I thought the amp sounded very nice, though not particularly "tubey." I sounded very open and detailed and clear, but not particularly lush. The dealer expressed some concern that the Cary might not sufficiently control the 12" woofer of the Heresys, but I don't know. It seems to me that, despite their size, the Heresy woofers are fast and probably easy to control. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Last night I managed to hook up the speakers I bought from Doug on Sunday (see his thread below). Summary: I love these speakers. At the same time, I appreciate what Klipsch has done with newer models since designing these. Everyone should have more than one pair of Klipsch speakers from different stages of Klipsch history! I hooked them up to my HT system in place of the KLF20s. I would characterize this system as decent, entry-level high-end solid state: Sherwood Newcastle pre/pro; Rotel 5x100 power amp; Sony S7700 DVD/CD player; Rega Planar 3 with Grado Silver cartridge and creek phono stage. I first put in the CD soundtrack to the movie "O Brother Whereart Thou?" to make sure everything was hooked up properly, and was IMMEDIATELY captivated by the clear, open, detailed and MUSICAL sound of these speakers. I later listened to (1) some Bossa Nova stuff by Stan Getz on CD, (2) John Coltrane "Favorite Things" on CD, (3) Morphine "Cure for Pain" on CD, (4) Galactika on CD (great funk/jazz combo with lots of drum, bass guitar, Hammond organ and vocals), and (5) some early Dexy's Midnight Runners on LP (sort of garage band rock and roll). I'd still be at home listening if I didn't have to WORK FOR A LIVING (how unfair)! Here were my PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS of what I would hear in comparison to the KLF20s: (1) the bass would be faster and tighter, but very thin; (2) they would sound dynamic but more boxy; (3) they would sound more forward and bright, and would not be a good fit with SS gear; and (4) the horn sound would be somewhat more pronounced on vocals. Here is what I ACTUALLY heard in comparison to the KLF20s: (1) the bass was indeed faster and tighter, but was not thin at all; in fact, the bass seemed fuller down to the roll-off point (though they certainly do not go as deep as the KLF20s); (2) they were at least as dynamic as the KLF20s, but not particularly boxy sounding at all; (3) they were in fact warmer and softer sounding than the KLF20s in the midrange, and with even more resolution if that is possible, but with less resolution from the tweeters; and (4) my only real criticism, but real nonetheless, is that the vocals did indeed sound somewhat unreal and "horny" -- more so that I'd expected. I find the Heresy IIs to be a wonderfully fun speaker, with dynamic, clean, detailed and MUSICAL sound. Perhaps not a good fit with cheap ss gear, but a very nice match with good quality ss gear. I now must ask you all whether tubes are a good idea with these speakers, because they sould so good, and the bass quite full and strong, with quality ss. I am thinking maybe the NAD C340 integrated would be a good match for a stereo only system. But I am tempted to get a Cary or CJ integrated amp if I can find a decent used deal. Anyone want to sell me one from the trunk of his car? So, where does this leave my KLF20s in my eyes? Overall, I'll rate them higher than the Heresys even for music alone because they reproduce vocals SO much more naturally. Of course some of this could be positioning. Also, for HT, the KLF20s are just designed better as front mains because of their deeper bass and the height of the tweets and mid-horns. I now feel very fortunate to be a member of the Heritage family. Ever since I was in highschool in the early 1980s I have pined for a pair of Heresys. The fit and finish is excellent and the sound is so immediate and engaging and clean and musical. But I will not leave the Legend family either, because most of the Heritage qualities are preserved, and the tratrix horns do a better job on vocals (at least a better job than the Heresy IIs in my living room on my system). But I have to admit, I would love to hear Cornwalls more than ever now! Your feedback are suggestions are appreciated, especially regarding optimum amplification source. Please bear in mind that all of the foregoing is my opinion based on a very preliminary listen, so please don't release the attack dogs if you disagree.

Hey Jayhawk -- Not Massachusetts, but Maine (unfortunately for you if you live in Connecticutt). Portland is about a 2 hour drive from Boston if you drive fast, but not crazy fast, and there is no real traffic. There are some nice places in the Boston area, such as Spearat Sound (formerly Goodwins Audio) on Commonwealth Ave. in Boston and Goodwins High End in Waltham, but they do not sell Klipsch and have a more "exclusive" feel to them. The nice thing about New England HiFi in Portland is that the equipment is decent but not outrageously exclusive (I'd say from solid mass market stuff to highend) and the proprieter is very knowledgeable and fair and totally free of snooty attitude. I suspect that there were more places like his throughout the country 20 years ago before Tweeter, Etc. became mass market and generic and Circuit City and Best Buy became omnipresent. Josh

Hi Doug, I certainly will. It could, possibly, be as early as tonight, but it could also be as late as the weekend. It's killing me that they are still in the trunk of my car! I thought I would have them in my apartment last night, but the coworker who was going to help me was here past midnight, and I'd had enough of work by about 9:30 p.m. Andy is a good guy for sure. I bought a CD bookshelf from him on Sunday (decent looking -- solid oak with a finish that matches my KLF20s pretty well) and he is shipping it to me UPS for no extra charge, AND he gave me about 20 feet of speaker wire for no charge even when I said I wanted to pay him. Foost -- great story about the Heresy Is (or is it Heresys I?). Andy told me the same story about how he got them, but not that he was selling them back for essentially the same price. Makes me wish I lived in Portland! Josh

THEY ARE MINE NOW, GENTLEMEN! I turned yesterday into quite a nice road trip to Portland, Maine. I drove up with a friend who was visiting a sick uncle at Maine Medical, and generally visiting with family up there. While she was visiting with family, I hooked up with a law school classmate who is now praticing in Portland and met Doug for the big purchase. Doug is a good guy. I spent the rest of the day hanging out with friends in Portland, and visiting NE Audio (I think that is its name -- nice, small, family-owned, authorized Klipsch dealer). The Speakers are indeed very clean looking -- they aren't the most beautiful pair you'll ever see, but are really cool. I do wonder why Klipsch offered a birch veneer at all once they switched over to MDF (I can see having a birch "veneer" when the speakers are constructed from birch plywood, but why cover MDF in a sheet of birch?). Anyway, they are very presentable, and, did I mention, they look REALLY COOL!!. I probably will sand, or steel wool, them very lightly and apply a new coat of stain. What do you think? I certainly don't want to sand through to the MDF by accident. As far as how they sound? Well I'll have to post that later, as they are still in the trunk of my car! (I have a physical disability, so I will need to find an available friend to lug them up to my apartment). I am open to suggestions as far as how to enjoy these bad boys. I currently have a Legend based HT system in the living room (KLF 20s, C7, S6s driven by Rotel power amp and Sherwood Newcastle pre/pro). In the bedroom I have a Krell KAV 300i driving B&W CDM1SEs. So, I'll test the Heresys on the living room system (I don't even want to hear them hooked up to the Krell beast), but eventually will try to hook them up in the bedroom either as a second system (!) or as replacements for the Krell and B&Ws if I can get a good price for them. May seem like a "down grade" (at least price wise), but the Krell/B&W, while fun for awhile, are not all that thrilling. So, what would be a good, most likely used, amplifier? I'd love to go tubes, though I could see getting some old NAD or Rotel integrated amp for really cheap. Doug -- thanks. I went over to NE Audio and met Andy. He seems like a good guy, and of course knew you. The one killer -- he had a beautiful, clean pair of Heresy Is (circa 1974), also in stained birch (but real plywood) that he had just sold . . . for $200! Oh well, such is life. I'll let you know how I like the IIs once I get them set up. This message has been edited by JoshT on 03-18-2002 at 11:26 AM

Don't listen to them! At least not until I decide whether I can meet you up in Maine tomorrow or on Sunday. I hope I can.

Come on guys, 58 views and no response?? I'd love to hear your thoughts on my question. Someone must have used Klipsch speakers with a tube preamp and ss power amp? Even if not CJ? Should I post this on Home Theater? I hate to double post! Or just post a response to say "hi" -- it had been a while since I last visited the Board!

I have KLF 20s, C7s and S6s in my living room. I love them for HT and perhaps even more for two channel music. Currently I run them with a Sherwood Newcastle preamp/processor and a Rotel 5x100w amplifier (which is plenty of power for Klipsch). I have a Sony S7700 DVD player, which I also use as a CD Player (quite nice) and a Rega Planar 3 with Creek outboard phono preamp. I am thinking of upgrading my preamp/processor. While I think the Sherwood has very nice sound overall, it has glitches: (1) there is no analogue only bypass for two channel music, so even LP signals get digitalized supposedly, (2) the internal phono equalizer does not always work very well (hence the Creek) and (3) some of the LED indicators have burnt out. Sheesh -- and it's only two and a half years old. Here is what I am thinking of doing. I would like to buy a Conrad Johnson PV-14 preamplifier, which is a tube preamp with a theater bypass. I would then hook the theater by-pass to a decent, but not too expensive, processor (a Rotel probably). And I would keep my Rotel ss amplifier. I figure this way I would get some of the benefits of tubes through the CJ when listening to two channel music, and would get a clean analogue signal as well. I would also get killer HT through the Rotel, where the "softer" tube sound is unnecessary. The total cost would be about $3,200, I think, which seems like a bargain -- even getting analogue bypass in a processor gets you to at least that price (e.g. NAD silver series is about $3,500 and Krell is $6,500 -- YIKES!). So, what do you think? Is this nuts, or would it be a great solution?

I love my Rotel five channel power amp which I use with my KLF20s, C-7 and S-6s, but it was only about $950 new. I'm sure that all the amps you list are excellent, but am just wondering if the RB5s need such power? And they seem a bit pricey for a US$800 speaker. I think I'd go with tubes, like maybe CJ, if I were to pay that kind of money to drive the RB5s (which, BTW, I think are phenomenal speakers). Good luck in your choices!

Well, as much as I love your description of the awful B&W demonstration, Boomer9911, I actually think B&W makes fine speakers -- different, but not superior to Klipsch. I prefer listening to my KLF20s then to my CDM1SEs most of the time. I heard some N801s driven by Krell monoblocks and was blown away. IMPRESSIVE. But come on cc1091, that system cost HUGE dollars! For less money the KHorns blow me away, and Klipsch doesn't make any other speaker anywhere near as expensive as the N801s or that require high power/high current amplification. No current B&W speaker below the N802 blows me away. I really do like the CDM line and the N805s (but not the 804s), but they do not strike me as superior to the Reference or Legend series. In fact, in many regards I think they are clearly inferior. And they need a lot more power. And they cost more. I agree in some ways that the old Heresy may be better quality than the RB-5, but not in all ways. Yes they are made out of plywood rather than MDF and have aluminum horns, not plastic horns. But I have also heard that the screw-on plywood back can resonate so loudly it howls, which is why some people replace it with an MDF back. Also, I know the aluminum horns are blamed for resonance too, which is why they are often coated in damping materials. I haven't heard Heresys in a few years. I liked them a lot, but they seemed awfully bass weak and a bit bright for my tastes (at least with ss amps). I love the sound of the RB-5s. And I have read posts here in which people have compared them favorably to the Heresys. I'm almost thinking of grabbing some while I can still get them in MAHOGANY.

To each his own, but I disagree that B&Ws have more "texture" to their sound than Klipsch. Or, I should at least say, that B&W CDM1SEs hooked up to a Krell KAV300i do not, in my opinion, have more texture than Klipsch KLF20s hooked up to a Sherwood Newcastle pre/pro and Rotel five channel amplifier. I think an accoustic bass sounds awe-inspiringly real, as do drums, on the Klipsch set-up. The B&Ws have a lot of detail, but don't sound more realistic, or textural (if that's a word) to my ears. I also consider the RB5 to be an excellent speaker. For about $650 you get a speaker that is well made and sounds excellent. I understand many prefer it to the Heresy, though I have not A/B compared them. And I bet the build quality is better. I think Klipsch is already doing what you ask of them. To do more would cost more.

Hooray BobG, I know you have made these points before, but they are excellent and needed to be reiterated. Can I remind people that Klipsch has always been criticised by the high-end gang? "They make your ears bleed," etc., etc. And look at the endless tweeking that Heritage owners do. There are famous tweeks here and at AudioAsylum that get passed back and forth, from the Heresy to the Klipschorn. Cross-overs, bracing, horn treatments, etc., etc., etc. One of the wonderful things about Klipsch is that they have always been a GREAT VALUE. It may be the the RF-7 is a disappointment. I DON'T KNOW YET -- HAVEN'T HEARD THEM. But I refuse to criticise a two way speaker based on philosophy and dogma. For crying out load, PWK has always wanted to achieve a two way, full range, corner horn! I will post MY impressions of the RF-7 when I hear them hooked up to decent equipment. And I say, good riddance to the powered tower!! It's not a TRUE three way design anyway, and the cross over to the horn is high in the frequency response, so what's the beef with the RF-7? Sheeesh. Now, BobG, please, please, please reconsider dropping that beautiful Mahogany. I know you suggested it in the first place. How dare your colleagues challenge your taste?! And bring back walnut! Sorry, I had to get some digs in myself. --JoshT

Hi rowoo, You might consider MIT Terminator 2s. I have them on my KLF20s (the biwire version, but they make single versions too), and definitely noticed an improvement in imaging and weight, though only after some lengthy break in. AudioAdvisor.com is dumping the stuff (presumably because it's being replaced?). I think 8 foot pairs are under $200 now, may be under $150. And they have a 30 day no questions asked return policy. --JoshT

cc1091, I'll retract my last post, since you seem to have genuinely believed BobG to have insulted you. I'm glad that was all straightened out, though I have no idea where you came up with your interpretation of OSMR. As far as your comparison of the CDM7SE to the RF5, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I happen to disagree, which is simply my opinion. I own CDM1SEs and I own KLF20s. Both sound excellent in my opinion, though present significantly different pictures. And neither would sound right if swapped into the other system, as I spent quite some time matching the components of my two separate systems. I also have listened to the CDM7SEs (and now the CDM7NTs and CDM9NTs and N804s) at a local B&W dealer where I bought the CDM1Ses, and I have listened to the RF3s at a local Tweeter where I bought the KLF20s. I like the B&Ws quite a bit, but to say they are "better" than even the RF3 seems like a stretch to me. I think the B&Ws have a more refined, sweeter sound, but lack the dynamics and air of the Klipsch. I haven't heard the RF5s or RF7s yet, so I cannot comment, but I imagine they sound "better" than the RF3s. I would only buy CDM7NTs over the RF3s if, as I do, I already owned Klipsch and was looking for a different sound. In fact, that is the only reason I bought the CDM1SEs over the excellent RB5s. I wanted a new bedroom system, and thought it would be fun to get a B&W/Krell combo since I already have a Klipsch/Rotel combo in my living room. A buddy of mine has the modest SB3s hooked up to an NAD receiver and I think they sound phenomenal -- a real bargain. I'd certainly buy them over the B&W 601s. I just totally disagree with you that Klipsch has "meager" offerings. They are coming out with new stuff as we speak. The fact that they discontinued a model you like doesn't make their offerings meager, or of poor quality. I would like to hear from people, for their opinions only of course, who have done A/B comparisons of the RP3s and RP5s to the RF3s, because my recollection of earlier posts is that most who did leaned towards the RF3s, with or without a sub, because of their better dynamics. So, anyone want to start a poll? --JoshT

cc1091, For that comment, I'd ban you from the BB if I were the moderator. But I'm not the moderator, so all I can say is that is the rudest post I've seen in the couple of years I've been hanging here. Of course I'm not too surprised, since most of your posts seem to be directed at bashing Klipsch because they dropped the RP3 and RP5. (YAWN) Too bad you can't get your facts straight, and then get angry when you are corrected. Too bad for you. Pretty obvious to the rest of us. JoshT

Hi Wired1, First, I want to apologize if I am being insensitive, because if I were you I would be very angry too. I am waiting on the delivery of a new car that the dealer told me (1) was at another dealer, soon to be delivered, then (2) was at a "central location," relatively soon to be delivered, and now (3) is supposedly on the ship steaming across the Atlantic, LESS soon to be delivered. It is infuriating, and I certainly feel I was lied to by the dealer (twice) to induce me to make a deposit. And like you, I am mad, but want the car so I'll wait and stew. I do hear you loud and clear. Like Tom and you, I also think it would have been a good idea for Klipsch to have made some sort of announcement on its BB before someone (you perhaps?) first raised this issue. But I do think that, at least once it was asked, BobG has been as forthright as possible in his postings. When he says "there is no firm schedule" he is not being cryptic, he is being honest. And I have read elsewhere on this BB that Klipsch is trying to negotiate with different companies to make the horns for the tweeter and midrange drivers, but has not yet concluded a deal with anyone. So, overall, I get the sense that Klipsch simply has not yet struck a deal with the new vendor, and things are dragging on, and they can make no promises. I negoatiate business transactions all the time as part of my job, and frequently there are delays that neither side desires, but neither side can control. I cannot imagine that your dealer has the right to withhold your money. You contracted to buy speakers on a 6 to 8 week delivery schedule, and now you are being told you have to wait indefinitely. That is not fair, and Klipsch should step in at this point and insist that you get a refund from that dealer, if that is what you want. You can always order the speaker later if (1) it actually becomes available and (2) you haven't found a used model by then. Anyway, good luck with this and sorry if I have sounded dismissive. By the way, another thing I would insist on if I were you is confirmation that the finish you desire will continue to be available. I was quite annoyed to learn that the mahogany is being dropped from the Reference line. I hope that that is not a sign of things to come for the Heritage line! Regards, JoshT

cc1091, How are the binding posts on the RF5s different from the binding posts on your RP3s? My KLF20s take banana plugs, in the traditional way as far as I can tell, as do my B&W CDM1SEs. Both came with red plugs that had to be removed in order to use the banana plugs. --JoshT

Thank you Mace. Wired1, you haven't a clue what "cryptic" means. Klipsch gave a straight answer. You just don't like what they told you. Sorry you are unhappy. You want something that you cannot get, and that stinks. But don't confuse your frustration with Klipsch acting inappropriately. Your dealer is breaking the law. Do something about it.

Wait a second Wired1. Did you, or did you not, attempt to get your money back? If you did, and were refused, then you have a legitimate gripe. Otherwise you do not in my opinion. Klipsch has not be "cryptic" at all on this BB. They have explained the situation quite openly.

Allan, Where do you get your 99% isopropyl? I've heard it's hard to get in the U.S. (cuz folks might drink it). I'd really like to add it to my VPI cleaning fluid, but don't know where to get it. Regards, JoshT

JimG For the sake of all things holly, do not drop the mahognay finish! Check my posts -- I'm an avid fan I don't gripe much But my god, why in the world would you drop that beautiful finish to replace it with the latest trendy look? why?! Droping walnut a few years back was dumb. Dropping oak is even dumber. Droppin mahogany is criminal! Why did BobG solicit, a few months back on the BB, our thoughts on what finishes we wanted if you were simply going to copy B&W (and I like B&W and their look, but I also like BMW and wouldn't want my Ford Mustang to look anything like one). I am truly depressed by this decision! Horn Ed, Mdeneen, someone??? BRING BACK THE CLASSIC LOOK! This message has been edited by JoshT on 07-10-2001 at 10:51 PM