unimorpheus Posted December 27, 2008 Share Posted December 27, 2008 I just upgraded to a Sony BDP-S550 to replace my DVD player. Since my Yammy is pre HDMI I am using the analog out of the Sony to drive the Yammy. One thing I have noticed is the weak LFE out with this setup. I have read about a -10dB LFE recording level to provode room for dynamic range and that the revievers codec normally accounts for this in DVD audio decoding. Is it true this was overlooked in the implemintaion of the BluRay audio codecs. The sound of BluRay is great minus the weak LFE. The S550 will not let you correct for this as you can only atenuate the LFE in the player setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyboy Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 How is your player setup? Make sure you set it to PCM. Mine doesn't have an issue with LFE, but the overall volume is a little lower than my old dvd player. No biggie, I just turn the volume up and it's good to go. Try setting it to PCM, and let us know if that doesn't help................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 He can't use PCM. He is using the analog outputs. I just got the same player and heard the same thing on the AVS forum (S550 onwer's thread). Apparently the LFE is 10 dB down, or 15 dB if you set any speakers to small. I haven't tried a movie with strong LFE content yet, but strangely I used an old AVIA calibration DVD and the sub output seemed only a little low, nothing like 10 or 15 dB. But I haven't yet compared the toslink output to the analog outputs to see if there is an obvious different there. This is silly... We'd need two calibration levels depending on the source! Yuck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyboy Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 LOL, I didn't know that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 If you are using the analog outputs from the BR player, yes, the LFE channel will be attenuated by 10dB. If any speaker is set to small it will be lowered by 15 dB. This is not some oversight by the manufacturer. I have the Panasonic BD55 and have the same issue. I use Parasound HALO C2, pre-HDMI, and have spoken with Parasound and researched the issue. The analog outputs are intentionally attenuated by industry standard in order to prevent the LFE channel from causing distortion. You will have to compensate for this by making adjustments in your setup. You will either have to boost the LFE at the subwoofer, or reduce the dB level of the other speakers in order to get a relative boost of the sub channel. The problem with the first option is that when you boost the sub, and you then play a digital source like SPDIF or Coax, your bass will now be over-boosted and sound way overpowering. It is a major pain we are all dealing with, except for those who have HDMI capable pre/pros and those who have the rare pre/pro that converts analog signals to digital and back again thus allowing the pre/pro to make the boost adjustment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 Well, to be honest, had I known about it I might not have bothered with analog outputs for the extra $100, and waited to have an HDMI-capable receiver to enjoy the new codecs. This is going to be a major pain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 Here is a bunch of information on the subject, probably more than you want to know: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748147 Depending on what your pre/pro or receiver can do there are several options. In my case, I boosted the sub output and set it for what I consider appropriate low freq. response while listening to BR analog outputs from a movie. This, of course now will blow you out of the room if you switch to a DD or dts SPDIF source since the pre/pro boosts the digital source. My pre/pro allows me to add a 'preset' to any digital input, so I set it to subwoofer -10db. This makes both digital and analog bass relatively similar and is not a problem. Hopefully your processor will allow some similar thing. The other option is to leave your sub alone, that is set for digital source sound and then make 'relative' changes in the BR player's bass management screen. In this instance, you will use the BR to boost the sub. My BD55 does NOT allow me to boost the sub output, so when I first did it, I had to leave the sub at 0dB and REDUCE all the other speakers....in effect relatively boosting the sub. The issue there is that when listening to analog, you will have to turn the volume way up, past where you are used to with digital sources. That is why the first option is preferred. The third option is to plunk down $1500+ to get a new HDMI capable receiver or pre/pro. I am happy right now to use my gear and save myself the 4-7K it would cost to replace my HALO with a similar unit that will play HDMI movies and also give me better than average 2CH performance. There are lots of posts on this issue in the avs forums, so if you want more information, run some searches.....lots of folks, including myself, did not know about this issue. It is not a bug though, it is by design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 Here is a good article that also addresses these issues: http://www.ultimateavmag.com/howto/805bass/index1.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyboy Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 Wow, that would be a pain in the rear! I'm lucky enough to have HDMI............ I guess those of us who have the subs with remotes won't be so bad off???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 Yep, I'm trying to decide what to do in the future. I am looking at the Integra DHC 9.9 pre/pro for movies, but want good 2 ch. performance. So I am working on keeping my HALO for 2 ch. and adding the integra so I can have full HD audio decoding as well as the older formats. I probably won't spend another $4500 for the new HALO offering...the original HALO was supposed to be upgradeable, a big selling point. Come to find out, not as upgradeable as we would like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 Proper calibration yielded a huge increaseon the sub dial. So now I have two positions to remember on the sub volume dial to listen to either BR (analog outputs) or any other source. Sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 I think you will find that this unit from Velodyne is a "Home Theater" life saver. http://velodyne.com/products/brochures/SMS-1%20datasheet.pdf I use it, with great results!! I had issues with a Sunfire Theater Grand IV pre amp also sending signals too low. I will experiment with a preset for Blue Ray Discs vs the preset I already use for "normal" HDTV, but feel pretty confident it will come out ok. The other features like room correction, EQ also are helpful. I had trouble before matching the Sunfire Theater Grand IV to a THX Sub amp that was used to a Hotter ( +10 db ) Ultra II signal. I believe if the signal is still clean i can boost it 10 more db for the Blue ray Player with Analog outs..(Sony 550) Which I just purchased. I will let you know what i find out in the next day or two but believe this might be the home run solution. (It was for the non Ultra II pre amp into a Ultra II sub amp.) Here is the info from Velodyne. http://velodyne.com/products/product.aspx?ID=15&sid=784n516g Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 One of the reasons I have been keeping an eye on the Integra DHC 9.9 is the Audessey EQ ability. I have read that it makes a huge differance in the sound you hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 Proper calibration yielded a huge increaseon the sub dial. So now I have two positions to remember on the sub volume dial to listen to either BR (analog outputs) or any other source. Sucks. Is there no way that you can use the presets in your receiver or pre/pro to compensate for the differance? I agree that having to change the sub setting every time you listen to different sources sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 Proper calibration yielded a huge increaseon the sub dial. So now I have two positions to remember on the sub volume dial to listen to either BR (analog outputs) or any other source. Sucks. Is there no way that you can use the presets in your receiver or pre/pro to compensate for the differance? I agree that having to change the sub setting every time you listen to different sources sucks. hk avr-325... I can use input-specific settings for crossover frequency and small/large, but not for level as I recall. But I'd better make sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 psg: I just spent some time verifying my settings so I didn't lead you astray. In my case, my C2 processor allows me to reduce the LFE channel as well as the subwoofer. Best results for me were by setting the BD player to analog out, mains and center large, effects small. All dB levels were 0 on the BD settings. My processor does apply the level settings in analog and digital, so I can leave the BD levels at 0. I then lowered the LFE channel by 10 dB. This makes the analog and digital sources 'nearly' the same in sub performance. I started the whole process by setting the sub boost while listening to the 7.1 analog. I first used the AVIA calibration disk to measure sub output relative to the other channels. I then switched to digital source and reduced the LFE until the digital sources sounded correct and measured close to the mains. This does take a while to get it right, but it is worth it so that you don't have to have two sub settings. You need to pour through your manual and see what preset adjustments the HK offers. Other options are to drop 2K on a new processor or get an external bass management like Indy mentioned. Don't give up, lots and lots of folks go through this issue. Most of us are working with pre-HDMI processors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Thanks. It turns out that the level adjustments on my hk are input-dependent after all. I have reset the dial on my sub to the normal level and have calibrated with the sub at +10dB gain on the 8-chnnel analog input setiing of the hk. I can now listen to everything without changing the level on the sub! I have to get a newer AVIA disk. The subwoofer adjustment on my old disk doesn't send the sub signal discretely, but as low frequencies to mains which the crossover should divert. Makes calibration difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_L Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 So, let me get this straight, for a not yet BluRay pre HDMI guy that knows a little but not a lot about the technology. I've been thinking I'd buy BluRay after the holidays, thinking the prices will fall a bit more, but now I'm not sure what I'm in for, My current set up is a Pioneer DVD/CD that has Digital Optical and SACD analog outputs to a Pioneer VSX-1015 (non HDMI) AVR. I've been assuming that the BluRay would use the Digital output and either DTS or DD as the audio protocol. Not so? Does BluRay have yetr again another audio output that requires HDMI support, not using the digital optical output? Sorry in advance for my possibly totally uninformed questions on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Well, to get audio out of BluRay you need either..... 1) HDMI 2) Analog outs, of the codecs from the BluRay machine. The issue is to non HDMI pre amps or recievers, the sub out is - 10 db down.... If the BluRay player has the other formats it will play them too. dd dts TRUE HD etc., etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Thanks. It turns out that the level adjustments on my hk are input-dependent after all. I have reset the dial on my sub to the normal level and have calibrated with the sub at +10dB gain on the 8-chnnel analog input setiing of the hk. I can now listen to everything without changing the level on the sub! I have to get a newer AVIA disk. The subwoofer adjustment on my old disk doesn't send the sub signal discretely, but as low frequencies to mains which the crossover should divert. Makes calibration difficult. Sounds like you got it done. Now, sit back and enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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