Triode Pete Posted February 14, 2002 Share Posted February 14, 2002 At what distance apart is a center channel necessary for K-horns for better sonic imaging? My K-horns are about 17 ft apart and I'm thinking about putting a Heresy in between them as a center channel. Any opinions or ideas on using a Heresy II as a center channel on my vintage 1974 K-horns? Also, how many dB down should the center channel be? I'm assuming ~ -3 dB down. Thanks, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted February 14, 2002 Share Posted February 14, 2002 That also depends upon how far away from the KHorns you sit. If your room is, say, 20 X 20 and you're sitting about 15 feet in front of KHorns that are 17 feet apart, a center channel will probably provide a nice improvement in center fill, soundstage depth and improve the overall "continuity" of the sound. If the room were, to take an extreme, 20 X 40, and you were sitting 35 feet away from KHorns that are spaced 17 feet apart, I don't think you'd need a center channel. How're your speakers and room set up? ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triode Pete Posted February 14, 2002 Author Share Posted February 14, 2002 My room is ~ 18'L X 13" D X 8.5' H. (It adjoins a similar size dining room - I built a permanent 4' half wall to accommodate the left channel K-horn). At times, depending on the music selection, the stereo separation appears extreme. When some of my audiophile friends visit, they are blown away by the dynamics, inner detail, etc. but comment of the lack of imaging, particularly a center image. Any comments or advice is appreciated. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted February 14, 2002 Share Posted February 14, 2002 Is the lack of centre imaging the same with all recordings or better with some and worse with others? What receiver are you using? Does the imaging change as you move further back? (in other words are you sure you are in the sweet spot?) I think the idea of adding a centre channel is not a bad one - but I think we should evaluate all the no cost options first. Further, whilst the Heresy is a good tonal match for the KHorns it may be drowned out by them. Seemingly you plan to use this for music. Generally music surround sound systems recommend using all similar speakers (as opposed to movie surround sound systems). I would suggest that the best centre speaker for Horns would be the Belle Klipsch (unless you can cut an alcove in the middle of the wall for another KHorn). Just my 0.02 ------------------ 2 * Heresy 2 (mains) 2 * Homemade horn speakers (rears) 1 * REL Strata 3 sub Accuphase E211 amp. Tube monoblocks with separate pre-amp (solid state). Marantz CD6000 player Sony NS900 SACD/DVD player Stax Headphones Humax 5400 digital satellite receiver Sharp Video 32" Sony flat screen 16:9 TV Mogami interconnects Silver Synergistic speaker cable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triode Pete Posted February 14, 2002 Author Share Posted February 14, 2002 This will be a "no cost" option for me. I have a 2nd pair of Heresy's which aren't currently being used and I'm getting a vintage Marantz 7 preamp from a friend to use for the center channel. I have 2 "spare" monoblock 300B (or type 50 or 10) SET amps to use to power the center channel. I can attenuate the center channel by gain controls on the amp or preamp. My system should be linked below; http://cgi.AudioAsylum.com/systems/1176.html The system images pretty good (depending on the recording) but I believe it can be improved. Thanks for your comments, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 14, 2002 Share Posted February 14, 2002 Pete - You sure you want to go with a center channel fill? I dont know; it seems to me that this would really take away some of the positives with soundstaging. I know 17ft is pretty far apart, however. Still, the idea of a center channel has never really seemed like a great thing, even though sir Paul liked it. no other options? kh ------------------ Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triode Pete Posted February 14, 2002 Author Share Posted February 14, 2002 kh, I'll try anything once, do anything twice. I'm real curious on how it'll sound with a center "fill". PWK considered the center channel to be a "curtain" or "waterfall" of sound continuous between left & right speakers. Worse comes to worse, I can always get rid of the center Heresy. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted February 15, 2002 Share Posted February 15, 2002 With your extra amp and your pair of Heresy's if you dont like the centre channel effect you can always setup surround's. This is very much what I have done but I have Heresy's at the front and homemade bookshelf speakers at the rear. I use this setup for both movies and surround sound music (SACD and DVD). I dont have a centre channe so I would rate it as excellent for SS music and acceptable for movies (in the sweet spot). Just a thought. (another one) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacKlipsch Posted February 15, 2002 Share Posted February 15, 2002 Pete, The concept for stereo with a mono L-R center channel was developed by Bell Labs way back. The ideal wall length was determined to be 17' as I recall, with a center speaker with flanking corner toe-in speakers. I have the literature around here somewhere from Bell. I will post when I dig it up. I believe Paul Klipsch used a Cornwall in his set up, but it sure looks like a Heresy in the attached pic doesn't it? Anyway I would think a Heresy would work fine except for ear bleeding volume levels. Keep in mind that the center should run 6db below the corners. Ideally a Belle would be best, but you already have the Heresy.... A pic of my set up is in the odd and mods thread. My wall is 20', and I notice a huge difference without the center. Fills the hole in the middle. Try it....You'll like it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triode Pete Posted February 15, 2002 Author Share Posted February 15, 2002 Thanks, MacKlipsch & others, I plan on experimenting with the center channel on President's Day (Monday). The Belle or Cornwall IMHO would be the the best center channel. I gave my brother-in-law my vintage Cornwalls when I got my K-horns. Wish I kept one...oh well! MacKlipsch - your system is really cool! I used to have all McIntosh separates (but I kept my MR-78 tuner!) when I had my Cornwall system. Then I heard some homebrew single-ended triodes...that's another story. I'd appreciate looking at the Bell Labs literature when you post it. Thanks, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted February 19, 2002 Share Posted February 19, 2002 Pete, Last week I moved into a different apartment and three days ago I managed to fire up my gear again. My Khorns are 5 metres (about 6,5 feet - sorry but transferring measurements isn't any of my strengths )apart and my sweet spot is pretty much on axis just over 9 ft. away from the Khorn's wall. I admit that I was really worried if such a room will work or if I'll end up with a hole in the middle. My fears were unfounded. What I have now is an unbelievably wide soundstage which doesn't lack depth. Performers can be clearly located and at last an orchestra has the space to 'breathe'! After all musicians hardly play on top of each other and with good recordings the presentation of the music is certainly awsome. Of course you already have the necessary gear to experiment, but anybody out there wondering if a set up like mine will work, feel at ease. Still, good luck with your experiment and let us know how things develop. Wolfram ------------------ Without music colour becomes pallor, man becomes carcass, home becomes catacomb - Edgar Allan Poe System: 1973 Khorns with ALK crossovers REL Stadium II sub Cayin 743 D integrated tube amp McIntosh MR 77 McIntosh MCD 7007 Thorens 520S SME 3012-R Ortofon SPU Classic GM E Cyrus aEQ 7 phono stage with PSX-R power supply Alternative system: Quad ESL 63 McIntosh MC 2105 McIntosh C29 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triode Pete Posted February 20, 2002 Author Share Posted February 20, 2002 Thanks to all for your helpful comments. Set-up the center channel (Heresy II) late Monday night using a vintage Marantz preamp in mono mode and 300B SET amp (used a new KR 300BXLS -wow!) Sounds very filling in the center. I know what they mean by a curtain or waterfall of sound. I'm still playing with the volume control to get 6 dB below the L & R channels. Any suggestions? What a huge difference sensistivity makes: 104 dB K-horns vs. 96 dB Heresy II. Power ain't nothing but a number! Right now, you can't really hear the center channel since it blends in with the L & R channels...sort of the analogy of having a great subwoofer that integrates well into a system. Imaging is improved with a nice wide soundstage, hard to describe the curtain of sound. Only problem, the center channel appearance is low on the WAF. I asked my non-audiophile wife how it sounds. She said, "It sounds like the music is in the center now, not in the corners." Have to get some audio buddies over to evaluate & tweak. Any suggestions for optimizing 3- channel (center-mono) playback? MacKlipsch - if you could post the Bell paper on 3 channel reproduction, I'd appreciate it! Thanks, Pete PS - Below is a link to my updated system http://cgi.AudioAsylum.com/systems/1176.html My alternate system is here: http://cgi.AudioAsylum.com/systems/1177.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 20, 2002 Share Posted February 20, 2002 Perhaps I am the lone loon out in the woods here and certain (I assume) PWK and others would disagree..but I cant help but think adding a mono channel to the center would completely foul the proper imaging of a recording. Yes, many people in here dont care about this but I surely do. And yes, you do get a WALL of sound, but this wall would not reveal the recording or the subtle cues of the soundstage. Combining both channels and feeding them mono would solve one problem and create another. I think the only real solution would be to listen on a shorter wall. Frankly, I think the center channel solution was a damn good idea when you made speakers that REQUIRED them to be placed in corners...and with some people having corners 20 feet apart, how else were you going to "fill" the center of the stage? I guess the problems with this could be reduced by the careful control of the levels as Pete explains. Still.... I am not exactly convinced. On the other hand, if you HAVE to put your Khorns near 20 fett apart, what choice is there? And no, I dont think it's a horrifying solution; I just dont think it will equal the same type of soundstage as done with proper stereo ie the soundstage extending back behind the plane of speakers. Personally, I have always tried to avoid having ANYTHING between my speakers and my best rooms were configured as such. kh ps- Good to hear the KR300 is better than the KR2A3. Perhaps they do need more voltage to come to life. ------------------ Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted February 20, 2002 Share Posted February 20, 2002 I certainly shouldn't type anything into a computer that includes numbers by the end of a very strenuous day. I just reread my previous post and noticed that 5 meters is more like 16.5 ft and not only 6.5. Still, having listened to a few more records and CDs I cannot but confirm that my set up seems to work. The soundstage is really amazingly wide, but after all in real life most stages/orchestra pits are certainly wider than my livving room wall. And at last I get an aural perspective which resembles the distance of instruments I perceive during a concert (even though the scale is naturally diminished). And there is certainly no lack of depth behind the plane of the speakers! Wolfram ------------------ Khorns, tubes and the right room: welcome to aural paradise! System: 1973 Khorns with ALK crossovers REL Stadium II sub Cayin 743 D integrated tube amp McIntosh MR 77 McIntosh MCD 7007 Thorens 520S SME 3012-R Ortofon SPU Classic GM E Cyrus aEQ 7 phono stage with PSX-R power supply Alternative system: Quad ESL 63 McIntosh MC 2105 McIntosh C29 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.