Deal or no-deal?

[bigrfish]

I have been slowly (very) putting together a multipurpose PA/SR system and found a pair of KP-302's, along with an active bass crossover, for $350.00 All are reputedly in good shape and can be run bi-amped?. I will put ears on tomorrow. They are the trapezoidal cabs(3002?) in "rat fur". What do y'all think??

Doc Snow

[Mr. RF62]

Edit. Pics would be appreciated.

[bigrfish]

Would send but my WinTel box is not capable of handling images. For this we blame Bill Gates? When I try to insert an image it asks for a URL. When I enter a filepath address to the picture on my local machine it just looks at me. Did these guys ever hear of copy and paste to and from a "clipboard" file? I've got a 13 year-old Mac that'll beat this, but that's another story.

Cosmetically the speakers look at least as good as "chicks in short skirts" , but I am not interested in that. I am more concerned with value and functionality. http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/kp-302-specifications/

[Mr. RF62]

Should make for a pretty good system, especally if they are in good condition. I've never heard a pair but based on the specs, they should do the job well.

[colterphoto1]

YES- good deal if all the drivers are working.

The 302 and 3002 are some great cabinets. Get some subs and you'll be happening. I wouldn't bother biamping within their cabinets, they have a good passivle within them.

[bhendrix]

Hi Doc,

Absolutely, deal. I have three pair of KP-3002's and they are great speakers. The HF driver is the Eminence PSD-2002. Diaphragms are available from Parts Express, if needed. The woofer is the K-48 (Eminence), same as used in the Chorus I and II. These little guys are great for PA and home theater, in fact, I'm using three of them as LCR in one of my rooms.

For PA, you'll want a couple of 18" subs. The KP-4000's are great with the 3002.

[bigrfish]

Michael and Bill,

You guys amaze me. I heard the speakers with not-so-good front end, but could tell their genius will emerge with some clean Class-A source material, so I got them. Which input does one use to activate the intenal crossover? (There are 2) I have worked over 40 since Friday and it's 0730 Monday now, so no chance to install and check out yet. Gotta go to store and get some connectors/plugs, make some cables, clean 'em up, etc. It is interesting you use them inside. You give me insane ideas.....got an extra Phase Linear 400...??? Rear channels? Wind up with Octa-Quad b-4 it's over!!

Sleepy Doc

[colterphoto1]

Those inputs should be wired in parallel and marked identically, so you can use either for input.

I don't know of any instance other than LSI where the crossover in the mains cabinet contained a crossed over output to the sub. Usually a sub built for such a purpose had the passive network in it that would divide the LF from the full-range less LF output. (like the KP115 mini-sub or the KP480).

If you got an electronic crossover with those units you could get other sub bins and use with them but the 302's should be pretty full range on their own.

So just plug em in and enjoy!

Michael

[colterphoto1]

The network (or something close to it)

Let's study it, shall we?

KP3002,302.pdf

[colterphoto1]

Review the previous PDF file. See the note #10, which states that certain wires on the network are to be RED in color? Those are wires on the back of the input cup that you can CLIP to make the inputs separate for LF and HF sections. Stock, they are wired together so the entire network is intact within the cabinet as a two way speaker system. Note also the very steep protected network portion for the HF section. There is a fuse (stock is 20 amp, you probably want no more than a 1 1/2 amp in their for standard use), a 4 part (6-12-18-24, ah 24 db/octave slope on the HF), AND that little zig-zag part .185 is a poly switch which Klipsch calls the KLIP circuit, another protection device. It's like your tweeter is wearing like three condoms! LOLl

Woofer is a heavy duty 15" and as such should probably be protected with 3 amp fuse.

If you plug in to the LF input and only the woofer plays, plug into the HF input and see if only the horn plays. If so, someone has previously cut those red crossover wires and you'd need to reconnect them to get back to standard full-range configuration.

M

[bigrfish]

Michael,

This is the precisely the information I needed. Thank you so much, Bill, too! Having my first cup of coffee presently (keeping Rock and Roll hours), then off to Guitar Center or Radio Shack at the big mall for some more speaker wire and a few banana plugs and a some .25" phone plugs. Will vacuum and groom (furry speakers I never had before) them, remove metal grills for cleanup, prep and painting, and set them up and listen a bit and post results and impressions later tonight. I am going to remove the 1975 Heresys and replace them with the KP-3002's as a first research protocol. They will be parallel with the H-pros running through a Crown XLS 602. That ought to just about do it.

Did y'all have fun this weekend? In our region, there were the CMA(Country Music Association) doings in downtown Nashville, and the Bonnaroo festival in Manchester, both those in Tennessee, River Fest in Gadsden, Alabama, and I don't know what else. Seems to have been a wonderful weekend for kicking up a ruckus!

I did not have anybody die on my C.T. scan table from Friday to early Monday, and actually found some things (like aneurysms in the brain that were fixin' to blow up) that saved a few lives, so I'd say it was a good weekend all in all, even if physically and mentally arduous in some patches. I guess that's why they call it work instead of play. I must admit that I am entirely tired of real life and death dramas for a while and am now ready to do something else and decompress with some dulcet tones. That's one of the reasons I have a stereo. You guys have lifted my spirits and enabled me to continue to pursue what sanity I have left.

Doc

[colterphoto1]

Some of the rat fur covered speakers are OSB build. They might not paint up real pretty. Best check first.

Parts Express is the recommended spot for getting your connectors. I use the Neutrik brand 1/4" plugs. If your speaker have the Neutrik Speak Ons, that is a very solid locking plug that would be the best type for live sound.

[bigrfish]

MC,

I was just going to paint the metal grills, leave the cabs alone, except for vacuuming and cleaning up as best I can, dressing the handle inserts and input cups. I wanted to do this tonight b/c only day available, so I went to Guitar Center about 3 miles down the road and got some Live Wire Elite 12ga copper speaker cables, will deconstruct one end and mate with ProCo Banana plugs to interface with rest of harness. We're about an hour away from firing them up now that I'm back....Will keep Parts Express in mind for the future. Got my Selenium horn and titanium driver, high-pass filter for the center channel there...good prices and excellent service.

Thnx

[colterphoto1]

I use RustOleum Texture paint- it has fine bumpy texture that works great on electronic cabinets and grilles. It's not that hammered look but very fine texture.

M

[bigrfish]

Well, it's a few days later, and things have happened. When I got the KP 3002's home and hooked them up, the first thing I noticed was that they sounded drastically different than they did in Nashville, and drastically different also one from the other. This is the kind of problem where surgery is the only alternative. These are the things I found:

1. Native crossovers were absent from both speaker cabinets.

2. The native 15" woofers had been replaced by woofers made by McCauley Sound from out in Washington State. On the sticker it said that the woofer's operating range was 35Hz to 1100Hz., 350W RMS One of the attachment points on one of the woofers was broken, bent over 90-degrees, and the wire from the input was twisted around the tiny, thin wire that ran from the backside of the broken terminal to the innards of the speaker. It was not soldered, just twisted around, and that not very convincingly.

3. On one of the cabinets, three of the machine screws that hold the horn in were gone, and several of the standoffs that space the grills out and keep them from bending when the screws are tightened were likewise missing.

4. The Eminence HF drivers were native, and intact, working OK

I figured someone had blown out both crossovers and both woofers in one fell swoop, or that one of these parts-selling dweebs had gotten ahold of them previously. What is up with these people?

Actions taken:

1. I ordered two ea. 2-way Selenium Crossovers from Parts Express, 1500 Hz and 300W, 8-Ohm. They seemed the only ones that had a dimensional shot at mounting on the input cup standoffs and halfway fit what I had on my hands electronically.

2. The crossovers came and I found they would NOT mount on the input cups.

3. I went to a local distributor and got 4 ea. bolt-in binding posts and a hand-held lighted magnifying lens.

4. I went to Lowe's and found a little sack of machine screws for the horns, denominated 10-24 X 1-1/2 SS. In their hardware dep't they have a fit-testing strip for machine screws up on the wall to use to find out what kind of threads you have, as to the size of the screw, pitch, and frequency of the threads. The man who worked in the area told me they did not have ANY of these kind of screws, phillips head, with a tapered shoulder and flat surface. He was mistaken. They had about 100 of them. There I also found two little flat cedar pieces made with hooks in them for the purpose of repelling moths in a closet which I bought to mount the crossovers on, a little bottle of Gorilla Glue, and a foot of rather thick-walled fuel hose to take the place of some of the missing grill standoffs. I got some paint for the grills also, finely textured Rust-Oleum, black. I also got a box of star-drive deck screws, 8 X 1 3/4, with the drill driver in the package.

5. I disassembled the speakers (just took out the components) and first replaced the anemic and broken spring-loaded woofer conductor attachment lugs with the bolt-on binding posts and made those connections using the nuts and lock-washer.

6. I mounted the crossovers to the little cedar planks and put on some of the little slip-on connectors for the HF leads to attach to the horns. In turn, I used the deck screws to mount these cedar boards with crossovers attached to the inside wall of the upper part of the cabinet, using sections of synthetic wine corks as standoffs and vibration isolators.

7. I vacuumed all the dust and crud out of the inside of the cabinets and re-assembled everything, using the HF input only, fusing to the input of the crossovers. Those fuses are 20-W and need to be changed to about a 3-W fast-blow I would suspect.

I had already made my cables, so I plugged them up and am trying them out now. Of course, EQ changes had to be made, but they are running pretty even-tempered, really. I took a pair of '75 H's out to put these in the system, and this is different. That's what I'm going to say for now. Not worse, not better, just different. It will take me a week or two until I figure out what I am hearing and what I am going to say about it.

I was hoping against hope that the mismatch between the woofers' stated output and the crossover point would not be too detrimental, and it seems as though my uncertainties were unfounded, or at least partially so. I did what I had the money and time to do, and it did not come out as badly as I might have thought, yet I was holding out in my mind for a better outcome anyway, figuring the woofers would run a little more full-spectrum than merely 35-1100. I guess one component of my expectation was scientific and one was emotional. All were ruled by practicalities...need to do this before I do that sort of thing. As it is, it is very listenable and detailed, with a certain air of authority in the bass region that was not there before, and the highs that are there are not so ice-picky in the ears that they need more than my normal EQ profile for HF. I learned to EQ listening to a setup phono record put out by an equalizer company, and have always gravitated toward lower HF settings than some people.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Take-away: I will never buy anything like this again without disassembly and inspection. One lives and learns.

Chuck Snow

[colterphoto1]

good job on the rebuild Chuck. The Macauly brand makes some good stuff, whether the specs of those woofers mate with the cabinet I cannot say without model numbers. I've made grille standoffs from cut sections of hot glue sticks, drilled through and wrapped with electrical tape. The hose idea is a good one also. I'm sure Klipsch has the originals and the long #10 screws if we could only locate the part numbers.

I'm very concerned about swapping the crossover networks, do you have any specs on the ones you installed? db/slope per octave and xover point would be key.

Here is the schematic for the original Klipsch network. We'll talk. I saw your other post about the KP3002 sound and responded there.

Michael

KP3002,302.pdf

[bigrfish]

good job on the rebuild Chuck. The Macauly brand makes some good stuff, whether the specs of those woofers mate with the cabinet I cannot say without model numbers. I've made grille standoffs from cut sections of hot glue sticks, drilled through and wrapped with electrical tape. The hose idea is a good one also. I'm sure Klipsch has the originals and the long #10 screws if we could only locate the part numbers.

I'm very concerned about swapping the crossover networks, do you have any specs on the ones you installed? db/slope per octave and xover point would be key.

Here is the schematic for the original Klipsch network. We'll talk. I saw your other post about the KP3002 sound and responded there.

Michael

Michael,

Kinda quick and dirty, it says this:

12 dB/octave Linkwitz-Riley alignments Built-in HF driver attenuation For 8 ohm speakers and drivers 3-5/8" x 4" printed circuit board 1,500 Hz/300 watt 2-way crossover

The things sound absolutely great on the classical and big-band jazz I have listened to, maybe a little sedate in the higher midranges and the low highs compared to the '75 H's I took down, just this soundstage shift over to the Left side of the stereo or the right side of me, according to point of view. It is not THAT un-nerving and certainly has a novelty factor to it...I never really experienced something so powerful and freaky before...maybe this is what I should have been hearing all along and have only just conned myself into thinking it might have been there before...the stereo image. Here I thusfar have not been able to make it go away. It is not elusive, and it is not hard to apprehend. It is like a 2000lb Gorilla in the room. I always thought we were dealing with something subtle and esoteric, but this is totally anything but. Impossible to ignore and relatively hard to get rid of. Strangest thing I have run across in umpty-umph years! Likely it has to do with the proximity of the flanking wall in sound-field Left, and if I want to get rid of it, I am going to have to do some more experimenting, if in fact I do want to get rid of it. First interesting thing I plan on doing given time and energy is to try to get it gone, then see if I can make it come back. If it is persistent or can be made to persist, at least there is something scientific behind it rather than just a variation in my own perceptions. Will have to get another human with ears in the space soon for a little reality-testing I suspect.

The best part of the whole process was taking them from unplayable junk to a pretty fair and interesting set of loudspeakers. With gas and parts and what I paid, I would guess I've got about $550.00 in them now. I could have bought a good set of used CW's for that price, but I would not have had the experience, and there is something about this 2-way system that my ears tell me is going to be very good for the kind of music I like better, which is Classical and Big Band Jazz. If they do that OK, my NOLA and Muscle Shoals R&B should be right down the middle of the road. I have no amazing tonal revelations yet, I am just saying I hear something promising in there that I am sure I will figure out how to coax from its' hiding place eventually.

One interesting thing is that they can be playing up a storm and I can be looking at the woofer cones and can't really see them moving...have to feel. Another interesting thing about the interior cabinet design...there are three very shallow ports in the bottom, and the space the woofer lives in is bordered in the rear, diagonally, by a piece of carpet like waht is on the outside reflected up and stapled to the back of the cabinet...so the space the woofer lives in is not cuboid at all...would take complicated calculus to do any number-crunching on that. Wonder what would be the effect of removing the baffle or re-positioning it?

I am betting Lowe's has the grill screw I need...I overlooked that there was one missing...just have to look myself using their fit-testing tools, as their people proved one time not to be all that helpful.

Thanks,

Chuck

[colterphoto1]

Klipsch uses an 18 db/octave network on the HF and 12 db on the LF, this may blow your mind, but try taking your speakers and internally wiring the drivers out of phase on purpose. (ok, do one- then put the speakers side by side in a nice room, like outdoors, then listen in mono- which do you like better?)

Moving the 'baffle' material should not make any difference at all, it should not be blocking the ports is the only criteria here.

[bigrfish]

Michael,

It will be relatively easy to take the top handles out and switch the HF leads. I can see where the cabinet itself could be more musical by having the pushing and pulling reversed as the drivers do their thing. What an interesting idea. If I do not like it, I can just switch them back. You are a jewel and a prince among men, no doubt.

I think I got the migrating stereo field issue solved, by reversing two leads on a thing I have called a Yaquin tube output buffer. I put it in to take some of the ice-picks out of the HF, just to buffer the output of the mixer, whatever is playing, CD source or two computer sound utilities. The "strange effect" moved sort of to the other side and is less noticeable now. I think it was due to the end of the room serving as some sort of acoustic trap along with something indefinable that the buffer was bringing to the table, or not, really does not matter as it is "fixed" now. It is still there to a degree, just moved over into a not-so-objectionable location. What a fun and interesting little hobby.

First chance I get, I am going to reverse internal phase and will get back to you on that. Things were sounding very good in there right before I left for work tonight!! I listened to the Nashville Jazz Orchestra's "Live at B.B. King's" album and The Decoys, "Shot From The Saddle", and both were very entertaining to say the least. As an aside, I would heartily recommend these two pieces of music...google Nashville Jazz Orchestra and FAME studios as a start, and do your part to keep alive Big Band Jazz and Old-School Muscle Shoals R&B music!!

Thanks again, Chuck

[colterphoto1]

The reason I think that internal phase may be an issue is that you have a 2 pole LF and 2 pole HF whereas Klipsch uses a 2 pole LF and 3 pole HF, so Klipsch's network may be switching the phase where yours is not. Worth a try anyway.

PS- i got this 'pole' nomenclature from Hunter when he was at our IndyFest concert. He was concerned that I may have caused some phase irregularity in the MCM stacks by biamping the MWM subs and then using the Klispch passive for the rest of the stack. I'll have to talk to him in more detail about that. Perhaps Prof Thump could chime in?

M