chuckears Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 I have been leaning toward the Outlaw 1050, but the more I investigate, the more I realize that my system is going to need better bass management than the Outlaw provides. Specifically, I want the option of setting the crossover for each separate channel; the Outlaw allows one setting the crossover for all channels together (a range of 6 options, from 60 to 200 Hz). The reason I want control for each channel is that my mains (Fortes) have a relatively low end, and I would hate to cheat them of the sub-80 Hz signals. On the other hand, I would still like to supplement them with sub-40 Hz signals, since they drop off signigicantly after 35 Hz. I would subsequently set appropriate crossovers for my center and mains, since they drop off at 70 Hz and 50 Hz, respectively. I am aware of Outlaw's ICBM, but I don't think I want 3 more pairs of wires dangling around... I would prefer a single-unit solution. Oh, and I don't want to pay more than $800 . Anyone? ------------------ Klipsch Fortes, Oiled Oak Klipsch KLF-C7 Center Channel McCormack DNA-1 Power Amp McCormack TLC Pre-Amp Sony 5-disc changer NHT SA3 Subwoofer Amp Hsu TN1220 Subwoofer Old Akai cassette Deck Akai AAR22 used as tuner Nordost Solar Wind interconnects Kimber 4TC Speaker Cable (Future upgrades to include): Klipsch RS-3 Surrounds Outlaw 1050 AV Receiver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trvale Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 I just skimmed through a review of the Outlaw 950. It is capable of doing what you want it to do. Go here for the review. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckears Posted February 28, 2002 Author Share Posted February 28, 2002 trvale, I would love to pick up the Outlaw 950; unfortunately, I would then be required to purchase a 3 channel amp for the center and surrounds (since the 950 is a processor, and has no on-board amplifiers), and the final cost would be more than my spouse would tolerate at this point... I would like to stick to the $500 - $850 range... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 Chuck, I have the ICBM and am very happy with it. How many separate channels of amplification (McCormack DNA) do you have now (outside of the Outlaw 1050)? If it is a 5 channel amplifier then the ICBM is all you need. The ICBM is placed in between the amp and the preamp, and yes, you would then need 6 more IC's but I went with their .5 meter cables (shortstack) for an additional cost, but like them better than any other cable I own. Even though you can adjust each channel, it's only in 20hz increments (40, 60, 80, 100, 120). You can do all this for $342 (ICBM plus 3 pairs of Shortstacks and S&H). I think it is well worth it... Mike ------------------ My Music Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckears Posted February 28, 2002 Author Share Posted February 28, 2002 Mike, My McCormack amp is only two channel; my intention is to purchase an A\V Receiver, use the pre-outs for the left and right main through an input on my preamp, and use the speaker-outs on the receiver to drive my center and (future) surrounds. The reasoning behind this setup is that I do not want to alter my two-channel system... the only change I will be making with regular music listening will be a switch for my subwoofer, since my sub amplifier has only one set of inputs. This does not seem to have as much effect as altering the core two-channel chain. I feel that purchasing more than one more component would be asking too much of my up-to-now more than patient significant other... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 Chuck, I assumed you already had the Outlaw since it was in your signature. I see you already have a McCormack preamp and have a couple of questions: Is the McCormack preamp the only one you have at the moment and is it 2-channel only? Are you using a sub in this configuration and if so, how? Were you getting the Outlaw to replace the McCormack preamp so that you could enjoy HT also? Were you also planning on utilizing the sub for 2-channel music (preferably with a 40hz crossover)? If I know the answers to these questions I think I might be able to offer some advice. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckears Posted February 28, 2002 Author Share Posted February 28, 2002 O.K. Mike, here goes: The McCormack TLC1 preamp is all I have for the moment; I am using one of the tape-outs from the TLC1 to feed my NHT subwoofer amp, which in turn goes to my Hsu 1220 subwoofer. (Sorry about the confusion with the mention of the Outlaw 1050; you will notice that it is mentioned as part of "future upgrades"). My main outs on the preamp go directly to my McCormack DNA1. I have, until recently, been interested in 2.1 channel audio only, and hesitate to alter the sound profile I have constructed with the aforementioned components. The only change I have made in my two channel setup is installing a switch between my preamp and LFE-out from my DVD Player into my subwoofer amp, so I can switch between two-channel and HT-generated low-frequency signals. (My center channel is currently being fed through my ancient Akai receiver, which receives the signal from my analogue 5.1 outs on my DVD... this is temporary, until I can come up with the HT receiver, or processor + 3-channel amp). I have no intention of replacing the McCormack pre\amp combo... I will only be using three of the amplified speaker-outs on a home receiver; I already have the amplification for the sub and left and right mains covered. I will use the left and right pre-outs from the (future) A\V receiver, and send the signal into the McCormack preamp. I hope you can make sense of this confusion; my basic question\problem remains: assuming a one-unit solution to bass management, are there any HT receivers that will allow the control of the sub crossover frequency for each separate channel? Most that I have looked at only allow for setting the speaker(s) to large or small, and if a setting of the crossover point is allowed, it is usually one value for all channels... ------------------ Klipsch Fortes, Oiled Oak Klipsch KLF-C7 Center Channel McCormack DNA-1 Power Amp McCormack TLC Pre-Amp Sony 5-disc changer NHT SA3 Subwoofer Amp Hsu TN1220 Subwoofer Old Akai cassette Deck Akai AAR22 used as tuner Nordost Solar Wind interconnects Kimber 4TC Speaker Cable (Future upgrades to include): Klipsch RS-3 Surrounds Outlaw 1050 AV Receiver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 chuck, i skimmed so could be missin something, but your c7 & rs-3 should be set to 80hz (small). just get the icbm for use w/ the fortes & sub & run the others off your receiver dsp. unless you need a setting other than 40 or 60hz for the forte/sub blend. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckears Posted February 28, 2002 Author Share Posted February 28, 2002 boa, That is tempting, and it would work; I would be a little hesitant to plunk down $250 for the ICBM just to use it for the l & r mains... but thanks for bringing that possibility to my attention... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mlstrass Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 If you only wanted to change the mains the 3802 lets you set the Mains to Large + LFE with all others set to small. I plan on trying this when I get the KLF-30's up front...Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckears Posted February 28, 2002 Author Share Posted February 28, 2002 Mlstrass, I assume you are referring to the Denon 3802? Do you know if setting the mains to large still sends some left and right bass content to the sub? I thought that setting to large prevented any bass from being sent through LFE-out; and I am wanting to have at least the sub-40 Hz tones on the left and right mains supplemented with my sub... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckears Posted February 28, 2002 Author Share Posted February 28, 2002 A quick check of the Denon 3802 online manual indicates that, as I suspected, any speakers set to "large" will not have any of their bass content sent to the sub (LFE)... I have checked online manuals for several different receivers from different companies, and have not encountered any in the price range I have indicated with this bass management control. Anyone who can discover or knows otherwise, I will be glad to hear from... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 most denons have a supplemental bass control to set either lfe only or fronts+lfe. w/ the latter you'll get low bass from both fronts set large AND the sub preout. denon even sends low bass also to the sub this way in the direct mode w/ 2 channel material. as long as you set sub:yes the LFE channel goes ONLY to the sub preout. (don't use the sub's crossover or turn it all the way up). ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundog Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 Since crossover points produce gradual rolloffs, if you set all but the mains to small on the Outlaw and then select either a 60 or 80 crossover point, your excellent Hsu sub will take over. Matching crossover points will produce more sonic coherence between speakers (more important at an 80 level than 60). The fortes go down to 32 and, as PWK pointed out, there is very very little musical material below 35, so unless your favorate music is old church pipe organs, your Fortes will produce a much more natural sound by themselves in stereo. If it's R&R punch of the juke-box or car woofer variety you could always quickly change the 1050 setting to small and crank the Hsu. It would not be as natural but it would be dramatic. For DVD and SACD/DVDA 5.1 material the lower frequencies are already augmented via the .1 LFE effects channel. If you plan to simulate surround using DSP modes the redirection of bass of the center and surrounds set to small will insure plenty of bass through the Hsu (and you can always crank it up. IMHO it is better is far better to look for great sound quality first, variety of adjustments second and apperance way last. Most receivers with a lot of gimicks have sacrificed quality to include all these options, many of which are not really needed. The Outlaw acheives quality at a low price by cutting to the essentials and by selling direct. ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 Chuck, Boa got to it already but I will also point the bass can be sent to the sub (and mains) with settings at large. Simply look for the sub control. ------------------ Fronts - KG4's Center - C6 Surrounds - S6's Sub - KSW200 Powered by - YAM995 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckears Posted March 1, 2002 Author Share Posted March 1, 2002 Thanks all for the input... I'm still not sure which way I'll go; I don't know if it's my room response, but I do notice a significant difference (in 2-channel audio) with my subwoofer on, PWK's comments about sub-35 Hz signal notwithstanding. I am not talking about unrealistic thumping bass, but a very natural, live sound, supplemented by the Hsu sub, with the low-pass set to 40 Hz. T his would seem to indicate to me, as I stated, that perhaps my Fortes are rolled off at a point higher than 32 Hz, due to specific room acoustics; or it may just be my subjective preference. ...All of which is the reason I am seeking the ability to fine-tune the bass controls with my HT set-up... being a music nut first, I wish to obtain what I perceive to be the best balance from my mains, since most music soundtracks (correct me if this is wrong) are sent through the left and right mains. My experience with my 2.1 channel setup would seem to point to setting the low-pass from the mains to 40 Hz, with no high-pass involved. THIS is what I wish to avoid (cheating the mains out of the lower signals), and seems to be the way that most under-$1000 receivers work; by setting the mains to Small, the low signals are not sent to them at all; by setting to Large, the low signal do not get sent to the sub. If any of these assumptions are untrue, someone please feel free to enlighten me, for HT is a a completely different animal to me; fortunately, I feel I have the background with audio to be at least a step ahead of Joe Blow, and I also thank all of you for taking the time to read and respond... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 ce, that's what we're saying above - the denon have a bass control setting that if you set it front+lfe you get low bass from both the fronts set large & the sub. if you're not u must have your mains on small or this control on lfe only. the problem w/ mains large & sub on is that you have the sub & fronts covering the same range from say 30-80hz from different locations. usually not the best for bass quality hence something like the icbm that would let you dial down the high & low pass crossovers to say 40hz. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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