maxg Posted March 4, 2002 Share Posted March 4, 2002 Acro (Aristidis) came round to my place last night with one ZTPRE and one Bottlehead Foreplay pre-amp. We plugged them in and whilst waiting for them to warm up he patiently examined my sound using both his CD's and my SACD's as test subjects. I should state at this point that everyone who has come round to my house to date has simply been blown away by the sound and therefore not been in a position to be able to contribute much in terms of changing/improving the sound. Not so Arco! He listened and pronounced that there were 2 problems he could see (from his test CD). First problem was bass - it was too low (we fixed that with a simple turn of the sub volume control) and the second, more interesting problem, the sound was muddy. First he suggested that lying my Heresy's on their side may not be such a good idea. He could understand why I had done it (the speakers are some 4 feet off the ground - woofers at ear level - tweeters above), but thought it might be better to mount them normally. We therefore turned the heresy's back to their normal position and it did indeed sound better. Then he examined my cleverboy wiring technique - monoblocks and accuphase connected at the same time to the speakers with the sub taking its signal from the Accuphase speaker outputs even with the accuphase off. This meant that whilst using the tube monoblocks for the amplification the signal was traveling to the speaker and then back down the wire to the accuphase where it linked with the sub speaker connectors and into the sub itself. Arco suggested that this might not be such a good idea so we disconnected the accuphase from the front channel altogether and then split the sub cable so that it could take its signal from the monoblocks. This represented a big improvement which is always nice when it doesnt cost a dime. During the process I sneaked in a multi-channel SACD (Roger Waters - Live and in the flesh). I had noted Arco's distain for multi-channel during our previous conversations but this, I think, really surprised him. I deliberately set it up without telling him what was happening (he kept asking why the meters on the Accuphase were suddenly registering) and only confessed that this was MC when he stated he liked what he was hearing. I dont know if what he heardwas enough to make him want to rush out and buy an SACD player but I bet it took him closer. After all of this, finally we were ready to test the pre-amps. First up the Bottlehead. To be honest this was a little disappointing. It didnt perform any better than my solid state pre. It was pleasant enough - and I would have bought it simply because, at the money, it was a no brainer. Certainly looked sexy (if a little small) with its 2 little bulbs glowing red to match my KT88's - but soundwise it was a step sideways rather than upwards. One pleasant surprise was how well it coped with less typical tube music. We put on an SACD with big bass (MAriah Carey - track one -with some RAP star of other)and it coped with aplomb - almost exactly as my SS pre did. then we put on the Stevie Ray Vaughn's Texas Flood SACD for some real electric guitar and again it coped admirably. Somehow, however, it just didn't sing. There was nothing special about the sound so after about an hour of listening we switched to the ZTPRE. I should point out that this pre has a beefier than normal external PSU but it looks like crap. Even Arco's attempt at disguising the pre with chromed controls at the front and a wooden plinth didnt help much. Who would design a tube pre where you cant see the tubes? Most disappointing!! Then we connected the SACD and let fly. After a bit of messing around with the various switches at the back (mainly selecting the source - not easy with the hidden rear facing switch between the 2 outputs(!) and then adjusting the output level from low to high. Suddenly we had sound. and what sound. Crystal clear! An amazing and huge difference was imediately apparent. Instantly the other 2 pre's were relegated to the position of also-rans. I re-tested with music tubes are not supposed to like (Bass and the massively fast electric guitar) and it breezed through. Within a few seconds of, to be honest, the first classical SACD, I knew I was going to buy this unit, and after a quick trip to the cash-point I did! As Arco was leaving we chatted about things audio. I think he genuinely liked my sound (now at least!) - maybe he will comment here?? Next up is a visit to his house to hear his system. Frankly I cant wait - KHorns and vinyl should be amazing. Then we will investigate his suggestion of some triodes to replace the push-pull amps I have currently and after that who knows. Anyway - to summarize I am one happy bunny! I listened to the sound again this morning (Beethoven's 3rd Symphony) and it sounded sweeter and tighter than ever before. Think I will now go and adjust my signature once again.. ------------------ 2 * Heresy 2 (mains) 2 * Homemade horn speakers (rears) 1 * REL Strata 3 sub Accuphase E211 amp. Tube monoblocks with separate pre-amp (solid state). Marantz CD6000 player Sony NS900 SACD/DVD player Stax Headphones Humax 5400 digital satellite receiver Sharp Video 32" Sony flat screen 16:9 TV Mogami interconnects Silver Synergistic speaker cable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arco Posted March 4, 2002 Share Posted March 4, 2002 Hi Max! Thanks for the hospitality and I must confess I am as happy as you with the results we had yesterday. Still, there is big room for improvement part of which can be attained with better amps as well as source components and another part, through a well thought out tuning of the system (like putting your equipment on inert bases and the like). It will be of course your responsability to decide where cost-effective upgrades stop and "diminished returns" start but - after what I saw last night - I can surely say I can trust you on this one. I mean that you let your ears (and only...) take the decisions, something not so common within the Hi-Fi afficionados. Many people, for example, would basically choose a component not on its sound merits alone, but because it is built like the proverbial brickhouse. Just one of the reasons why people prefer big chuncky transistor amps, over the more "frail" tubed ones, of the SE triode persuasion (wait till you see the VT52 1.3W/ch monster, I'm actually building!). Triodes and vinyl, you said? Here's what we will do: I will arrange a proper "soiree" with the necessary trimmings and you do the same, centered on SACD multichannel. Very interested to discover, if the main dish will be as good as the hors d' oeuvre I've already heard! Aristidis www.aca.gr/pop_coumpas.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted March 4, 2002 Author Share Posted March 4, 2002 "with better amps " What - you dont like my $500 monoblocks???? Good heavens and what a surprise!!! And not in love with my $250 CD player either Well I suppose I can live with that (dont really listen to CD anyway). I do promise, however, that as soon as firwire ports come out on SACd players I will re-visit the source issue and maybe get a transport / DAC separates system. As for the next meetings - lets do it! Glad you enjoyed the multi-channel effect. ------------------ 2 * Heresy 2 (mains) 2 * Homemade horn speakers (rears) 1 * REL Strata 3 sub Accuphase E211 amp. Tube monoblocks with separate pre-amp (DECWARE ZTPRE with separate beefed up PSU) Marantz CD6000 player Sony NS900 SACD/DVD player Stax Headphones (on loan to a friend) Humax 5400 digital satellite receiver Sharp Video 32" Sony flat screen 16:9 TV Mogami interconnects Silver Synergistic speaker cable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted March 4, 2002 Share Posted March 4, 2002 Max, It must be nice that you have someone nearby with the Audio experience of someone like Aristidis. I would love for him to come over my house and tell me all the things I could do to improve my setup. How much is it for a round-trip ticket from Athens to Orlando? Mike ------------------ My Music Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted March 4, 2002 Share Posted March 4, 2002 Arco & MaxG, thanks for the spirited glimpse into life in the fast lane of tube discovery... the interaction of perceptions by both parties of a single event is not only most revealing... but great Klipsch entertainment. With a pair of K-horns, a Belle, a pair of Cornwalls and an Academy waiting to be hooked up to switch between two channel and multi-channel... I find your "posted dialogues" to be of great interest in planning a new music room. Of course, my Legend Home Theater remains intact in its own room. Arco, do you have your Khorns sitting in a sand box? Do the cat's mind? (sorry, poor taste is a part of my heritage ) MaxG, it seems I may commit myself to coming out of retirement for a bit to assist a new venture by some deserving young folks. Actually, before that, your posts had me thinking about visiting Greece again... for it has become a far too distant memory. I also would like to re-visit Egypt and the Middle East as part a one-man photo-journalistic safari. Keep the bi-play coming... inquiring lurkers want to know! HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted March 4, 2002 Share Posted March 4, 2002 Personally, I would opt for the Orlando to Athens approach any old day. So many things can be done to get a system to sound better but most people dont want to revolve the room around this approach. To say it makes a difference is the understatement of the year. IT can be HUGE. Placement, setup, wire routing, and attention to detail can bring some surprising results. You can walk into the average person's house and begin adjusting, moving, tweaking, and come away with something that sounds an order of magnitude (depending) better, all with the same components. Of course, you drop in better sources and amplification (not necessarily higher priced) and the stakes rise as well. Sometimes the little things can make an amazing difference. kh This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 03-04-2002 at 11:23 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted March 4, 2002 Share Posted March 4, 2002 I hear you Kelly! My grandmother went to Rhodes 25 years ago and brought me some T-Shirts back, and she fell in love with the place. Would love to go there some day... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted March 4, 2002 Author Share Posted March 4, 2002 Mike, HornEd and Mobile (and anyone else who frequents this forum) You are all welcome to come to Athens at any time - just let me know when and I will arrange as many system viewings as you can handle. Plus, I cant tell you how much it would tickle me to have Americans come to Athens and buy Greek tube amps to take home with y'all. Aristidis is certainly correct in that there are better tube amps than the Tsakiridis Devices units that I have - but for this money??? This is in the price range of an AIWA integrated unit (certainly over here) - and they are made to let you roll tubes to your hearts content. I alone can arrange for you to see a Heresy setup, Forte, RF3, KHorn, La Scala's and maybe Belles - who knows what Aristidis can line up - he is a member of the Audiophile club of Athens with access to presumably innumerable systems far far better than mine (with price tags to match). Just let me know when you are all coming - if you dont come together I can probably even put you up... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted March 4, 2002 Share Posted March 4, 2002 There is a good chance I will be in Europe for 6 weeks this summer as my wife is doing a Seminar in Siena, Italy on Dante's Commedia. Should be an amazing month and a half. I might just look up a few of you freaks nestled in surrounding countries as I disembark and throw all anchors overboard to explore everything within reach. kh ------------------ Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arco Posted March 4, 2002 Share Posted March 4, 2002 Horned: Bad taste the sandboxes? Arcici used to make sanbox stands for the notorious B&W 801's and they worked wonders. Thanks for reminding me! Fortunately, my 7 year old cat is Hi-Fi trained and - normally - wouldn't touch any piece of gear. I say normally, because once she jumped on my turntable while I was testing a Clearaudio Accurate cartridge. Murphy's law and the famous exception to the rule combined, but the Allmighty had mercy on me that night, as the cartridge (which was not mine!) came out unscathed... Ah, what an interesting hobby this is!!! Aristidis www.aca.gr/pop_coumpas.htm P.S. Mobile and the other guys:It goes without saying that you shouldn't miss to E-mail, before coming to this part of the world. All sybaritic pleasures, guaranteed (combined or not)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLUngurait Posted March 4, 2002 Share Posted March 4, 2002 Mobile, You lucky dog...Sienna is beautiful...as amazing a Greece is ...I'll bet you have a tough time just leaving Tuscany (Sienna, Florence, Pisa) The only thing that will keep you from comming back 20 lbs. heavier from all that pasta and gelato will be the constant walking from one amazing site to another. I lived in Florence for six months...it's my favorite place in the world! Color me green with envy Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted March 4, 2002 Share Posted March 4, 2002 Wow, six-months... what a wonderful opportunity kh. You will find that if you have something in common with people in various parts of Europe (which you definitely do!) that they will be your lens to see Europe as few Americans ever do. Sienna is beautiful in the summer... and so are its people all year 'round. Ancient Sienna was a major destination in medieval times... and now it is a university town with a wealth of character... and a whole lot less noisy and more laid back than Firenze, Roma, etc. (or at least it was last time I checked) I expect that is where the Seminar you mentioned will be held. Lucca is just about 20-30 minutes drive North of Sienna (if memory serves) and has rail lines that economically give you the opportunity to explore Florence and Venice on day or weekend trips. The town I grew up in adjacent to San Francisco was largely populated by emigrants from Lucca and the surrounding Tuscan countryside. Good people. An Italian immigrant by the name of A. P. Giannini came to San Francisco and was disgruntled with the banking community. So, he formed his own bank and called it the Bank of Italy. It grew quickly... and then suddenly, the growth curve became flat. He had run out of local Italian immigrant (mostly Tuscan) depositors... so he changed the name... to the Bank of America to attract more customers. Sadly for us natives, the headquarters was moved from San Francisco to your neck of the woods, North Carolina. If you drive south of Tuscany into Roma for a spell, try to go down river toward the sea an visit Ostia... the ancient port of Rome. http://www.initaly.com/regions/latium/ostia.htm Although well documented as the main port of ancient Rome... it was lost for centuries. A farmer hit an old stone while plowing his field about 18 kilometers from the sea... it turned out to be a second story stone of an ancient building in the port of Ostia. The Tiber had silted up the surrounding land that much over 2,000 years. It is the most complete ancient Roman city I have ever seen... and I have spent over 10% of my life roaming about that part of the world. If you can slip down to MaxG's corner of the world... try out the acoustics of a true Greek amphitheater... they ought to be right up the alley of a Forum famous tube guy! Of course, you can still find examples of that ancient Grecian art in Italy and France as well. Wow, wouldn't it be something for you to post a series of your six-month experience with the clarity and literary style of your famous "mobile homeless" posts. Enjoy your Dante's hope you spend more time in the comedy than the inferno HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted March 4, 2002 Share Posted March 4, 2002 No, Aristidis, the "bad taste" was my suggestion that the cat's may use the sand box for purposes other than speaker stabilization! I have to chuckle about the above post that talks about pasta in Italy putting on the pounds... my favorite country for pasta is Greece... by big margin! I hope Mobile Homeless will take advantage of the opportunity to learn the difference. Hey, that's not to say that Italian pasta hasn't been part of me for most of my life. It is amazing how a boy growing up in the only non-Italian family in an Italian neighborhood teaches you about life and the manly art of self defense. It probably went a long way to making me the maverick that I am... and so I am grateful... and so is each visit to Tuscany almost a homecoming of sorts. I took much pleasure in visiting your web site... but I have not found a way to read your article on setting up Klipschorns... since that is what I am in the process of doing. Is there a way to find it on the web? It is always a pleasure to see the arco avatar! HornEd ------------------ HORNED'S EIGHT THEATRICAL LEGENDS, FIVE+ MUSICAL HERITAGES & A ROADIE... SETTING THE "THEATER OF THE MIND" STAGE... KLF 30's: Left Main, Center Main, Right Main KLF C7's: L & R Front Effects on 5' sand filled columns KLF 30's: Left Surround, Rear Effects, Right Surround Twin SVS CS-Ultra SubTower, Samson Megawatt Amp KLIPSCH SPEAKER SUPPORT SYSTEMS: Bass friendly, oversized, glove-leather LazyBoy Recliners Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65", Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver Toshiba Pro Scan 6200, Toshiba Pro 6-head SVHS W808 CHANNELING THE MUSIC EXPERIENCE FROM 2 TO 6! '97 Klipschorn - Mains, '99 Klipsch Belle - Center '83 Cornwall - Surrounds, '93 Academy - Rear Effects Walnut w/ Cane Grilles. Final Amps, etc. undetermined THE MOVEABLE (EAR) FEAST... Klipsched Class "A" Motorhome... an acoustics challenge vandalized... but soon to be "On the Road Again!" Willie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arco Posted March 4, 2002 Share Posted March 4, 2002 Horned, The particular cat, named Ponpon, sends you her photo and her love, asking me to tell you that she's so much addicted to her perfumed cat litter, that she would never ever dream using a vibration dampening device for other purposes! You can read the article by clicking on its description... Cheers, Aristidis www.aca.gr/pop_coumpas.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted March 4, 2002 Share Posted March 4, 2002 Horned & Dave, Well, I sure wish it was six months but it is only six weeks. Still, this is long enough for a bit of exposure. I hope I can get a lot of work done before then to make it so I can actually STAY OFF line while there, something that feels good for the soul. Both of your comments make me even more eager to get over there as I have heard and read so many great things about the area. I havent been overseas in quite a while, actually much too long (last time was Southern Africa which WAS for six months). The history and culture surrounding Italy is something I am really looking forward to experiencing, let alone the beauty of the countryside. My wife will be in classes from 8-12 Mon-Thurs with Fri-Sun off. I am hoping we can get away for excursions to other countries. If she cant, I know I will. I will have the trains DOWN by the time I leave! It's still not definite, however but the chance is looking good. Going to have to rent out this beach abode to make ends meet! kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted March 4, 2002 Share Posted March 4, 2002 maxg, congrats on your tube pre-amp. The world of tube audio is really amazing (and think of the joys of tube rolling - an endless game???) and the better a set-up gets, the more clearly one notices all those 'little' improvements which might indeed come for free. BTW: I presume you got my email concerning the Quads? (but I can imagine that you have different things on your mind right now). mobile, of course Germany isn't Italy and Essen certainly no Siena, but if you happened to come this way and are interested in a Khorn/300B combo just drop me a line...and one can also enjoy a good red wine (non German) over here! BTW: When you mentioned the WE in another thread you really made me curious. Wolfram ------------------ Khorns, tubes and a suitable room: Welcome to aural paradise! System: 1973 Khorns with ALK crossovers REL Stadium II sub Cayin 743 D integrated tube amp McIntosh MR 77 McIntosh MCD 7007 Thorens 520S SME 3012-R Ortofon SPU Classic GM E Cyrus aEQ 7 phono stage with PSX-R power supply Alternative system: Quad ESL 63 McIntosh MC 2105 McIntosh C29 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted March 4, 2002 Share Posted March 4, 2002 Sorry, Mobile Homeless, but make the best of those six weeks. As you probably have guessed, the least expensive way to get around Europe is by Eurailpass... which you have to buy BEFORE you leave the States. It gives you unlimited First Class railroad miles... and you can even ride through the longest railroad tunnel in the world (curls around itself like a corkscrew for about 7.5 miles)inside the alps. I have had many friends that used to use Eurailpass Pass and took night trains between European capitals and slept on the train to maximize their daylight sightseeing hours. My son took the trip from Paris to London via the "Chunnel" under the English Channel. It is not all that expensive and very quick. The Brits didn't accept Eurailpass so they have a separate deal. A little planning in front can turn your six-weeks in Europe to an incredible tour-de-force... and the Internet gives you a tool that I did not have. Of course, I preferred to travel by custom motor home... taking one or two months at a time to wend my way through whatever. I just checked the web and current Eurailpass countries are: Germany, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Spain, Finland, France, Greece, Netherlands, Hungary, Italy, Luxembourg, Norway, Portugal, Republic of Ireland, Sweden and Switzerland. You can often get extra discounts by ordering your Eurailpass 65 days in advance. I think the current special is 5 days of unlimited train travel taken a day at a time anytime during a 2 month period... for $199 a person.. for two people traveling together. And the European railroads have welded tracks rather than the bolted together kind... so it's much quieter inside the cars. Do a little digging, there are lots of options available... even to, perhaps, returning home from an airport in a different European capitol and getting there on the train. Sometimes you can get cheaper fares from fling into one major capitol a day or two early and flying out from another major capitol a day or two later... than what a round trip would cost flying in and out of your target city. Of course, you take the train to Sienna. You haven't raised the cost of the trip significantly... and you have a whole lot more photos for your scrapbook. My son took the trip from Paris to London via the "Chunnel" under the English Channel just last fall. It's not that expensive and very quick. The Brits didn't accept Eurailpass though. But, I think you now may be able to ride the French Bullet trains. Okay, enough travel envy... I need to leave some room for people who want to talk Klipsch. HornEd PS: Doddering double data, moi? Thank Klipsch for the edit button... how embarrassing. Glad you found the data useful. Use the web to plan your six plus bonus day weeks and you will probably get catch the continental holiday habit. I have some friends who stay at hostiles and travel by train after picking up sweetheart airfares. Look up TravelZoo for their top 20 trips of the month... really great airline deals for those with an itch to get beyond the next county. I'm glad you thought it was worth posting twice but I'm hiding the evidence! H.E. I'm hiding the evidence! H.E. lol This message has been edited by HornEd on 03-04-2002 at 07:00 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted March 4, 2002 Share Posted March 4, 2002 GREAT MAIL! Even if it was repeated twice... Actually, my wife just walked in and we read the mail together; she never knew so much info could be available from the Klipsch contingent! The info on the Eurorail and the buying before hand is good to have, as is the airfare tip. Thanks for taking the time to write that up. For once, I am not blabbering about tubes and gear! The 2 Channel forum has really developed into a great cross section of people with varied interests and backgrounds. kelly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted March 4, 2002 Share Posted March 4, 2002 You and the Mrs. are welcome, Kelly. If you'll notice I corrected the errors and posted a PS for you. Now all you have to do is bring in send yourself some assorted paraphernalia and make enough tube stuff while she at the Seminar to turn the trip into your own Euromarket profit center. Now that's SOME vacation... and after it's all said and done, she can write it up as Dante's Second Honeymoon and sell it as a short story. Well, at least you might try flying back from Athens after a visit to MaxG for a tour of the Athens Audiophiles tubular works. It's not that big a hop from Rome to Athens... and not all that expensive as I recall. Anyway, with a little creative sleeping you can have an extra week in Europe for very little extra cash... and your knowledge and her Dante experience will put you both on the "sought after" guest list. Presto, one more thing... don't go to the Fountain of Trevi (Three Coins in the Fountain) before about 9 a.m because they shut the water off and collect the coins each night. And try the delightful and delicate "Wine of Rome"... it is so fragile you can't transport it as far as Sienna. Enjoy, enjoy, enjoy! HornEd This message has been edited by HornEd on 03-04-2002 at 07:23 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted March 5, 2002 Author Share Posted March 5, 2002 Maybe we need an audio travel forum as well as a tube forum on here OK - I promise that when you get to Athens I will allow you time to see some of the sites as well - and, of course, sample some Greek wines (there are over 4000 of them so we may need more than one night ) If we are lucky we should have found and moved in to our new house by then. If so I promise all accomodation will be free, if not, it can be free but you may have to rough it a bit (all being well my daughter will be about 3-4 months old by then). I have a couple of questions regarding some of the settings on my new pre - but I think I will post those in a new thread - this one is growing uncontrolably. BTW - Dubai - I did get you mail message and replied - did you not get that? I am thinking about the quads but the problem is that the budget I had in mind for the amplification will likely go on a 300b of my own now. Problems, problems - so much audio - so little time, space and money... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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