idahodewitt Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Where can I find the information on the values of the components (inductors, capacitors, & resistor) used in a KLF-20 crossover? I can read some of the caps and the resistor. I'd like to upgrade the whole thing if possible and not knowing the values of what I want to replace makes a complete upgrade rather difficult. I picked up the KLF20s last week, got them hooked up Sunday night, and I'm definitely happy with their sound. I just know that there's room for improvement by at least replacing the caps. I'd like to replace the inductors too, but I have no idea what their values are. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks! L.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Here is the KLF-20 schematic. Bob Crites KLF-20.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idahodewitt Posted November 3, 2009 Author Share Posted November 3, 2009 Bob, Thanks so much for the schematic! That's just what I needed. Now I can figure out how to put a new x-over together. I may do an outboard one that I can change out different types of caps on for capacitor auditioning purposes. Another question...... Is there any reason that I should not use a different type of inductor to replace the iron core one? I was thinking of using the Alpha Core ribbon type of inductor. Would that work well for this application? Thanks . Larry DeWitt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SET12 Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Bob, Thanks so much for the schematic! That's just what I needed. Now I can figure out how to put a new x-over together. I may do an outboard one that I can change out different types of caps on for capacitor auditioning purposes. Another question...... Is there any reason that I should not use a different type of inductor to replace the iron core one? I was thinking of using the Alpha Core ribbon type of inductor. Would that work well for this application? Thanks . Larry DeWitt Larry, IMO, Iron core inductors are just flat out lean sounding in contrast to Air Cores. Outboard networks are great! And the KLF20's that you have would be a first choice for me if I had to do another project like my Forte's done here. See my thread on AK here in reference to your KLF20's and why I like them! Along with the latest pictures of my networks. And a lot information and opinions. Scroll down and you'll see a comparison of KLF20's vs KLF30's in cost using some of the worlds best parts IMO. http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159340&page=12 As to ribbon Inductors I have reservations Read Inductor FAQ's at the bottom of this page. http://www.northcreekmusic.com/COILS.html Cheers SET12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idahodewitt Posted November 8, 2009 Author Share Posted November 8, 2009 Whoa! That thread went on forever............. Lots of good information though. I've used North Creek before......good stuff and good people to work with. I'll see about getting the Duelund resistors for the highs and their caps for the mids. Then the heavy gauge wire inductors from North Creek if they're still available. Plus, get the 80uf electrolytic out of there. I'll experiment around with the 2uf caps to hear what sounds best and see what I can do to get a better autoformer. I've dealt with Bob Crites before......great guy & very helpful. Thanks for all the info. Larry DeWitt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SET12 Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Whoa! That thread went on forever............. Lots of good information though. I've used North Creek before......good stuff and good people to work with. I'll see about getting the Duelund resistors for the highs and their caps for the mids. Then the heavy gauge wire inductors from North Creek if they're still available. Plus, get the 80uf electrolytic out of there. I'll experiment around with the 2uf caps to hear what sounds best and see what I can do to get a better autoformer. I've dealt with Bob Crites before......great guy & very helpful. Thanks for all the info. Larry DeWitt Good Luck Larry [Y] If you can drop me a line on my thread over on AK when have your stuff! SET12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Favog Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Here's one of Bob's first pair for the 20's he made for a me a while back (even pictured on his web site). Bi-wireable and bi-ampable. I wouldn't change a thing on these!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idahodewitt Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 Bob has great stuff for sure, but I was just wanting to build my own. I want to tinker around and try different caps to hear the differences. Looks like I may stick with these KLF-20 beasts for a while....they're not bad at all, even with no modifications. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idahodewitt Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 SET12, Still trying to figure out how to replace the 80uf cap. Looks like I may have to use a 82uf Solen. That should still be within tolerances......and affordable. The 1.25uf midrange cap is rated at 250VDC. I wonder if it needed to be rated that high (VDC) or if that rating was what was available at the best price to Klipsch at that time. I'd like to try the Duelund VSF copper 200VDC (because the price of the 400VDC jumps up to almost $60 more each). I can get the 1.25uf 200VDC Duelund for $119 apiece right now. I hate to pay that kind of money for caps, but the midrange is 'meat' of the music to me, so I want to get the most out of it. The 400V copper would be somewhere around $180 each till the end of November sale through Partsconnexion. The tweeter caps have me perplexed a bit also. I wanted 2uf Mundorf Silver In Oils, but they're only available in 1.8uf & 2.2uf. Should be okay to use those shouldn't it? If you have some good suggestions, I'd like to hear them. I'm still doing my homework before I do any purchasing. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idahodewitt Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 Bob, Do you have a heavier gauge autoformer for the KLF-20? Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Favog Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 The 1.25uf midrange cap is rated at 250VDC. I wonder if it needed to be rated that high (VDC) or if that rating was what was available at the best price to Klipsch at that time. From what I remember, Klipsch was using components that had a +/- 20% variance so I'm sure cost was factor in there somewhere. Bob used Sonicaps (+/- 5% or less??) on mine which I'm sure cost quite a bit more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SET12 Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Bob, Do you have a heavier gauge autoformer for the KLF-20? Larry Hi Larry, Yes, Bob does have the better autoformer here at his site http://www.critesspeakers.com/ And specificly here http://www.critesspeakers.com/autotransformers.html You have the 7A which is for a -10db reduction so you'll need his 3504 replacement. I would estimate its core to be about 50% larger. I would say you can also hear imroved bandwidth, greater air in recordings with a greater sense of ease. In a nut shell they are worth every penny and help put the meat on the bones as you put it! and are a perfect companion with the Duelund VSF cap your interested in. SET12, Still trying to figure out how to replace the 80uf cap. Looks like I may have to use a 82uf Solen. That should still be within tolerances......and affordable. The 1.25uf midrange cap is rated at 250VDC. I wonder if it needed to be rated that high (VDC) or if that rating was what was available at the best price to Klipsch at that time. I'd like to try the Duelund VSF copper 200VDC (because the price of the 400VDC jumps up to almost $60 more each). I can get the 1.25uf 200VDC Duelund for $119 apiece right now. I hate to pay that kind of money for caps, but the midrange is 'meat' of the music to me, so I want to get the most out of it. The 400V copper would be somewhere around $180 each till the end of November sale through Partsconnexion. The tweeter caps have me perplexed a bit also. I wanted 2uf Mundorf Silver In Oils, but they're only available in 1.8uf & 2.2uf. Should be okay to use those shouldn't it? If you have some good suggestions, I'd like to hear them. I'm still doing my homework before I do any purchasing. Larry Larry, Solen does make a 80uf PP cap here at Madisound were I often buy parts. They will match these for you as well here you can always parallel two 40uf caps as well if you wish or any combination. Mundorf's are within 2% or better. http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=152&products_id=762 Be sure to get Bob's Titanium Tweeter's as they are very smooth, Typically many people have frowned on metal dome tweeters but Bob's are smooth! I did find that my choice of inductor was a big issue for ultimate performance for me! The Inductor choice is not about "Q" factor but subjective presentation! I tried a Solen Litz which ALK found superior in "Q" factor but I found the Litz to be very incisive or bright for my taste and it sound just plain lean in contrast to my North Creek 8 AWG Air Cores. Why? I don't know I just know that Bob's Titanium's were heavenly with the North Creek's and Mundorf Silver/Oil coupling caps and I was told that the combination was the nicest my local club members had ever heard from a Klipsch and they don't even care for Klipsch's in general! But the results I am getting got their attention! Could it be better yes I think so, with Duelund's but we are talking nearly $600 for Copper VSF's and more for Duelund Cast and an ungodly amount for Silver's! The Mundor's do a very good job IMO for now. Man that stuff is expensive but with out a doubt some of the finest in the world IMO. BTW Duelund rates their caps in VAC typically 200VAC is nearly a 300VDC rating. You'll never aproach 200VAC. When I first did my networks I used Hovlands that are 100VAC and of course I never had an issue nor expected any issues. Its one well made cap unforunately I found them very hard sounding. So no need for the VSF 400VAC's I haven't seen the 1.25uf VSF's being offered. As far as I know an AK member with KLF20's I talked with had Partsconexion get them custom made I don't recall hearing a price for that. For those interested in specifics of cap sound comparison subjectively you might try this site as its where I got turned on to Mundorf's and Duelunds http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html Larry you could go to the 2.2uf Mundorf Silver/Oil's I don't think it would be to much of an issue. Otherwise you could go to the 1.8uf and use a .22 bypass of your choice perhaps the Mundorf Supreme Cap MKP would be a nice bypass IMO based on Humble Homemade HiFi's reaction to them. Oh yeah, Don't forget those Duelund Resistors! Absolutely the finest I have ever heard period. They droped my jaw makes all other sound harsh in comparison to my ears! And they are pretty reasonable at abot $18 each or so. Also Larry George at North Creek will custom make the .16mh inductor as he did mine the price is the next size up if you interested. I especially like the size of you 1.6mh low frequency inductor as its a lot less expensive vs the 3mh I use. but I about mine more than 5 yrs ago for half what he has to have today for a pair! I think if you don't consider the 8 AWG I'd get the 10 AWG for sure I have no doubt you wouldn't regret the purchase of these as they lay the foundation to the music. Incontrast to what your hearing now the stock Iron cores in battleship terms would be like your Iron cores would like be a Tin can as the say in ship terms compared to a Battleship, Full taught and fast! still turns my head today! Cheers SET12 Mundorf Supreme Cap MKP Mundorf Supreme Cap MKP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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