My visit to Arco - 2 of everything and then some...

[maxg]

Well last night I finally made it round to Aristidis' house to discover what this high end thing is all about. I took a friend with me (also a high end guy with some very large Maggies and Martin Logans and a plethora of other equipment - including a tube pre-amp - an Atmospere something or other I think - no idea what that is - Mobile???).

Anyway back to Aristidis - where to start? This is an Aladdin's cave of equipment much of which I didnt recognise. There are the Horns of course - for the first time placed sympathetically enough in the room so that they dont jump out and bite you (in neither the viusal nor the accoustic sense but more of that later).

OK - in the middle of the 3 way rack is a large Plinius SS amp (Class A, 100 WPC - serious heat sinks) above that one of the tube amps, then the DAC of the Theta CD player and topped off with the Hofland Pre-amp.

On either side of the Plinius were the 300B monoblocks we did most of our listening to. On the left hand side, rising from there I think is another amp and then a couple of tuners. On the right the power supply for the turntable, the Theta CD transport and finally the turntable itself (the Pierre Lune).

Did I say finally? On each of the KHorns themselves are yet more amps, a 2 channel 2a3 on the right and yet another amp on the left (which I cannot remember) but was 15 wpc push pull.

One of the first things Aristidis said to me was "My usual amps are out on loan - these are the ones I am planning to sell."

I was just thinking that the place needed some more amplification!!

We started by listening to a couple of CD's I brought with me that I always use in system testing (Dvorak's New World Symphony with Karajan conducting and Dire Straits - Money for nothing album track 9 - Private investigations).

Initial impressions were somewhat coloured by the speakers themselves. There was plenty of attack here, but that is as much a property of the Horns as anything - it was not easy to tell that this meant the amps provided the sheer balls I would need with Heresy's. Overall the impression was very favourable. The KHorns are certainly being reigned in sufficently (which is not the case with SS amplification in my experience) and so the music flows through rather than bashing you over the head.

Our later testing using the Plinius confirmed both my observations. Far more slam with Solid State but combined with a far more agressive presentation that didn't encourage relaxed listening - excellent for parties, not for listening on your own at night.

We played a variety of CD's - some of which were utterly breath-taking (that is one serious player in my opinion). There was not a trace of distortion anywhere - even at comparitively loud volumes.

I should say at this point that I am used to listening to my music at subdued volumes (in the region of 75-85 dB) and that these would go a whole lot higher when asked. You could, at a pinch, use the 300B's for a party but with the Plinius there it would be pointless.

We did not, unfortunately get to hear the 2a3 amp (another visit maybe) but we did get to hear some vinyl.

This is the point that I really struggled. I was between 2 vinyl jockeys who are obviously very enamoured with the format and I had great difficulty there, as well as here, in defining my feelings.

There were moments when the music soared beautifully, where the presentation took on a superb dynamic edge that really sounded as good as anything I had heard but these were a little to far apart and only on some of the vinyl we listened to.

I could not adjust to the noise floor at all. There is a constant hiss which became painfully obvious in quieter moments. Whilst during louder play this became a non-issue the pops, bumps, squeaks and so on continually made their presence known.

I found myself wincing at each pop and listening, not to the music itself but for the next one in a kind of horrified fascination.

Compared to the playing of Aristidis' best CD's this was a painful experience. I imagine that the introduction of a good SACD player would further illustrate the difference.

I am not saying that the music produced is better on SACD than on vinyl, but, it is delivered in such a clean way that the end result, to my ears, is much more pleasant and relaxing.

Vinyl may indeed (as the other 2 insist) sound less electronic but it also sounds more mechanical. It is not closer to "reality" than SACD, just different. Neither truely capture a live performance but with my hand on my heart I would say SACD gets closer, if only for the absence of mechanical noise in the playback.

I am undecided, as yet, as too whether my reaction to vinyl is a disappointment to me or a relief. As someone who does not own any records to speak of I cannot see myself delving into vinyl now and am of the opinion that going SACD, rather than to a turntable, was certainly the right choice for me.

Leaving aside the issue of vinyl I would like to return to Aristidis sound. There is one unfortunate thing in the system that does impact the playback and that is the room itself. The speakers are simply too close together and that impacts the soundstage and the imaging quite badly. Additionally, it causes a greater sensitivity to head height than I have noticed at other KHorn listeing sessions. Standing up is a far more rewarding experience musically than sitting down.

To some extent this is alleviated if you move further back from the system. I found the ideal listening position to be about 6 feet further back and central to the 2 speakers. At this distance the soundstage truely opened up and all instrumentation in orchestral works suddenly found there proper place in 3 dimensional space. You can also sit down there without ill effect using one of the kitchen chairs.

Aristidis is not an imaging freak and so such things are far less important to him than to me. This is his system and it suits his requirements for listening. I do not imagine he will be occupying that kitchen chair anytime soon.

So how would I summarise my impressions? Well this is true KHorn sound, and with the 300B's done as well as I have ever heard, if not better. That the KHorns have been tamed is a remarkable testiment to Aristidis' knowledge and understanding of all things audio and doubtless a combination of a multiplicity of factors including speaker mods, amplifciation and some very serious source gear.

I have no idea how much Aristidis has spent in total on this sound but I have the feeling we are heading into figures that would match the GDP of some African countries. It is obvious that we cannot talk in terms of ROI on such a system, as much as anything because there are so many amps kicking around.

One thing is for sure - I was in the company of a true audiophile who has taken his hobby very seriously.

I listened to Aristidis talk of his much modified amplifiers as if they were his children and thought quietly to myself -

what price money in the light of such love?

Thank-you Aristidis for allowing both Yiannis and I to listen to your system(s). It was a rare pleasure.

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2 * Heresy 2 (mains)

2 * Homemade horn speakers (rears)

1 * REL Strata 3 sub

Accuphase E211 amp.

Tube monoblocks with separate pre-amp (DECWARE ZTPRE with separate beefed up PSU)

Marantz CD6000 player

Sony NS900 SACD/DVD player

Stax Headphones (on loan to a friend)

Humax 5400 digital satellite receiver

Sharp Video

32" Sony flat screen 16:9 TV

Mogami interconnects

Silver Synergistic speaker cable

[Mike Lindsey]

Max,

It seems like you had a nice get together there. From looking at the pictures on Arco's website, it seems like the Khorns are pointing to a place where they intersect about 6 feet in front of each other. Are they not supposed to somehow be pointing at the sweet spot (your ears)? Does that change the sound dramatically?

Mike

[maxg]

You are correct in that the speakers intersect approximately 6ft 6 inches in front of the wall. This is something of a problem as that is a little too close for comfort. The reason for this, as I said, is that the speakers are too close together.

However, there is one major saving grace with KHorns and that is the size of the sweet spot. Even with the speakers this close there is a relatively enormous area where the sound does not change (relative to my Heresy's that is - I have a sweet spot that is about 2 ft square). With the Horns placed as they are the sweet spot is about 12 feet long and 4 feet wide.

If Artemidis was able to place the speakers 15 to 20 feet apart the sweet spot would be enormous. the downside of that arrangement, however, is that I would have moved in.

[arco]

Yes, I would have also liked the speakers 20ft apart (and with a Belle center to match!) but I only have 13ft to play with!

That said and - given the fact that the KH's are on false marble corners - I could have turned them in a way as to face exactly the sweet spot. Most people say that this is the correct way to set-up the speakers, after all...

Well, I tried that all right but I did not like the results at all. The sound became more "in your face" with even a trace of this midrange harshness the KH's are often accused. Finally, the truth of timbre (very important for me) took a rather serious slap in the face. As a result, the speakers returned to the normal room corners.

Aristidis

www.aca.gr/pop_coumpas.htm

[dubai2000]

arco,

I can imagine that you wouldn't mind more space. As I wrote before moving from a wall like yours to something like 5 metres makes a HUGE difference, but if one doesn't have the space there isn't anything one can do (and one still CAN enjoy Khorns under those conditions!) - and yes, I envy maxg that he could actually listen to some of your gear - it looks (and I'm sure sounds) pretty tempting.

maxg,

I am a bit surprised that you didn't comment more on the sound of the 300B amp. I'd assume that the quality you describe as 'flowing' is largely due to this amp (sorry, I am probably too biased, but I somehow can't get enough of this tube/Khorn combo).

When it comes to vinyl I have noticed that different cartridges emophasize those disturbing noises differently. I think what attracted me to the SPU is its musicality. It seems to be less analytical than more modern designs and along with this characteristic comes the very positive effect (at leastt to my ears) that any clicks, pops etc. seem to be (no, actualy are) pushed into the background. It's a bit like a waterfall of music through which you occasionally notice those things, but they are not prominent enough to spoil one's delight in the music - it doesn't even need a lot of concentration to do so, the music simply takes over and that's it.

But not having any records, I probably wouldn't go along that road anyway as I find the new vinyl releases overpriced and second-hand recordings are not available everywhere and one certainly should consider a good (and unfortunately expensive) record cleaning machine - so WHEN does an affordable VPI come my way???

Wolfram

------------------

System:

1973 Khorns with ALK crossovers

REL Stadium II sub

Cayin 743 D integrated tube amp

McIntosh MR 77

McIntosh MCD 7007

Thorens 520S

SME 3012-R

Ortofon SPU Classic GM E

Cyrus aEQ 7 phono stage with PSX-R power supply

Alternative system:

Quad ESL 63

McIntosh MC 2105

McIntosh C29

[mobile homeless]

Good points, Wolfram. Not sure why the vinyl affected Maxg this way either as I find that good tubes and a proper setup will tend to move the clicks and pops OUT OF THE plane of the music. Tubes really do this. I have almost 5000 albums in various levels of condition, some played on record changers by my brothers in the 60s! I think a good cleaning does help but basically I dont find the pops very objectionable. I dont have a problem with this via my Linn with either MM or MC.

I was surprised ole Maxg didnt react more to the Hovland and 300B myself. IT is such a DRAMATIC difference from the typical stereo either high end or vintage, tube or solid state, that I found my first exposure almost like a spiritual event!

kh

[maxg]

"I was surprised ole Maxg didnt react more to the Hovland and 300B myself. IT is such a DRAMATIC difference from the typical stereo either high end or vintage, tube or solid state, that I found my first exposure almost like a spiritual event!"

In a way I thnk I am too - surprised that is. Do not get me wrong - this was an extremely impressive sound - it is just that I think my mind was blown by Horns many years ago on Accuphase equipment and now I have simply absorbed this level of sound into my psyche.

I hope that it did not come across in my post that I was in any way dismissive of the sound I heard - far from it - this is an order of magnitude away from what I have now in my own humble setup - it was beautiful to listen to but even with a 300b there are compromises.

I am fairly convinced (utterly actually) that these units have less slam than my existing push pull tubes and less speed. In some ways I suppose I am merely saying that they are more tube-like, which is hardly a surprise. On Aristidis' setup you can get away with this as there are a pair of KHorns hanging off the end - but for me? with a pair of lowly Heresy's (in this company) I have my doubts.

I could easily tell the leap in musicality, the majestic splendour that the music was wrapped in - what I could not tell is where the KHorn's impact ended and the tubes began.

In a couple of months I will have gotten used to my pre-amp and its impact on my existing sound. I will then be ready to look afresh at these 300b's (and that 2a3 Aristidis has) to properly assess whether or not they will work with the music I play.

Worst case scenario - I will run both...

[arco]

Worst case scenario? Rather a best case scenario, I would think, as there is no such thing as "the perfect amp". Judicious choices have to be made, though, according to a lot of factors: Personal preferences, type of music you hear most, technical limitations (room, speaker compatibility etc) and - of course - wife acceptance!!! Now, DIYers have an additional reason for exploring new things. That is because of the fact, that planning and building a new item can be almost as mind enhancing, as listening to the final result. Which, by the way, can be altered and perfected for a long time after.

As it happens with the market itself, I am a "software driven" type of person. That is, I own a record playing rig because I also own a lot of vinyl records, gathered all over the years. Clicks and pops are an integral part of this type of music reproduction and, to my experience, can be minimised but not avoided. When I listen for e.g. to Lou Reed's "Berlin", bought at the beginning of the 70's and played since on number of turntables, yes I hear clicks & pops. I still think, though, that music communicates better through this record than through any of the CD remasterings I have heard through the years.

Would I buy a record player, if I were Max? Probably not...Most music actually is on CD and, although there is still much vinyl out there, I would find it a bit disconcerting to start a vinyl collection in the year 2002!

And SACD? You may ask...Well, I have listened to it but not in a "controlled" environment, such as my own system. Maybe Max can organise, as he said, an audition. Still, two things annoy me, for the time being: 1) It's impossible to use external DAC's (and I am convinced that the built-in DAC in the expensive SONY is not up to Hi-End expectations, at least when playing normal CD's) and 2) Not enough available software to justify the purchase of the necessary hardware...

Aristidis

www.aca.gr/pop_coumpas.htm

[mobile homeless]

I dont exactly know what 300B circuit he is running or how his system was performing. The problem with these beasts is that it really does start to become like setting up a race car for a track. And if anyone knows racing, whether it be F1, CART, IMSA, or NASCAR, they will know a bit of what I am hinting at here. This probably sounds a bit absurd, and I know that more than a few will be politely (or not so politely) shaking their heads, but it really seems to hold true at this level. Which is why, in some ways, one can long for when he or she just listened to music without worrying about the damn system so much.

This is a long way of saying that the slowness you heard is not indicative of all SET systems. There are a number of factors here. My 2A3 Momoblocks turn on a dime, as it where, and actually sounds very fast and articulate with no bloat or congestion or apparent dragging of pace. There is a tremendous sense of quickness here. As I have said before, I think the 2A3 tube, on the whole, is a more neutral sounding tube than the 300B. Of course, these tubes really react to what circuit they are in as well as the operation points. Changes here can make the amp seem quick. In addition, the choice of parts is VERY important as well. Cap combinations and resistor types really do impart a signature and can affect the system's sense of timing and pace.

You CAN achieve this quickness with single-ended amplification; and this will be combined with this amazing absence of bloat. This is actually one of the main things I like about the 2A3.

To rehash what I said at the top, the whole system interaction starts to really come into play here. Dont write it off in this way yet.

kh

note: the above was posted before reading Arco's response

Ps - As to ARCO's comments pertaining to vinyl, I feel much the same way. I have a hard time recommending to people to start with vinyl from scratch if they have NO collection. On the other hand, I will stand by my claim that good vinyl playback is STILL more musical with more information conveyed then any of the digital systems I have heard. I will say that I have YET to hear good SACD so I am interested. But so far, even with top notch red book digital, I have not heard it equal the sense of ease and resolution of a good vinyl system. It is FAR better than it was just a few years ago...but not there yet. I guess I am also lucky in that a majority of my vinyl does not seem to be plagued with tics and pops (besides the 60s-70s rock which were handled like coasters far too many times)

Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point

CD Player Rega Planet

Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified

Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks

Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect

Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover

system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s>

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 03-09-2002 at 08:04 AM