Clarity Vs. Fullness (Reference Series) RB-61Vs RB-81 Floorstanders Vs Bookshelves

[saurabhiitd]

RB-61 SHOULD BE THE BEST SPEAKER KLIPSCH MAKES. AND A 7 SPEAKER SETUP WITH RB-61s, RS-62/RS-52s and RC-62/RC-52 WILL SOUND THE BEST?

Hi Everybody,

I am pretty sure I will be raising a furore here and will get a lot of Flake from all you Klipsch Fans. So the disclaimer first: I am also a Klipsch Fan may be less experienced. I have never heard a speaker better than a Klipsch even if it was twice or three times expensive and will never buy anything else apart from Klipsch.

So my concern is that if anybody asks for a recommendation for a new home theater speakers in the forums here, it seems like the fans out here almost always recommend RB-81 or RF-82 if the buyer is on budget and RF-83 if the budget is not limiting.

My SETUP, I have 3 RVX-42 for LCR, 2 RS-42 for sides and2 RB-81, an energy S10.3 and a mirage Prestige S10. So Pretty decent subwoofers (almost no boominess or distortion) except they cant produce 18Hz test tone. They go down to 21Hz which is pretty much what you get if your budget is ~$500-800 for one subwoofer or the limit on most Klipsch Subwoofers anyways.

Woofer Size: After going through an old review of RB-81s( http://www.hometheatermag.com/compactspeakers/1006klipsch81/index2.html ) , the data and specifications were so impressive that I could not pass through RB-81s and also because there was no data for RB-61s (although specification wise compared to Rb-81s, it seemed they migh have a lower extension because of port-noise). Going by my gut feeling, I would have bought RB-61s instead if they were smaller but since their dimensions are almost the same size as RB-81s(except for height which does not matter in my case), I went for RB-81s.

My Requirements: Clarity The most important thing I want from my system is clarity and imaging. My RVX-42 are amazing, they sound the way anything should, perfect vocals, clear highs and clear midrange. RS-42 are very similar in sound but I feel they are a bit boomy (slightly but noticeable boominess which will be called "fullness or deep").

Now comes the RB-81, sure the Bass is unbeatable and goes down to almost 50Hz with no loss of fullness or distortion, but the downside is even though the mid-range (Upper, mid or Lower) is not missing, it is not as clear (dynamic) as the RVX-42, so why would somebody recommend me a RB-81 and not RB-61s. Although both have a very flat frequency response, RB-81 are not as dynamic as RVX-42s. The 8" woofers start and stop slower than the 4" drivers and it follows from the simple physics principle of moment of inertia, a heavier thing will be harder to start or stop and so will be less dynamic.

Sure the RB-81 are powerful and instruments sound fuller but the guitar strings are muddled (slightly but noticeable) and not as clear as my RVX-42s. So again, why would somebody recommend me RB-81 than say RB-61.

Both 61s and 81s go well beyond 80Hz (normal crossver for a sub) or even 70Hz (if you prefer Xing-over your speakers even lower). I believe they will sound clean (without any port noise upto 55Hz), considering a 12db/octave slope, you should have no output difference between the 61s and 81s as sounds lower than 55Hz will never reach the speakers at all and will be overwhelmed by the subwoofers.

So my main question is Do you guys just want bass with no midrange clarity at all and Yes, I am sounding arrogant here because half of you are self proclaimed audiophiles (including myself)? . Is all you need is a lot of distortion free bass and some high quality high end? Come on guys.

Bookshelves Vs. Floorstanders: Now coming to RF-82 or say RF-62 or say any klipsch floorstander compared to bookshelves, the woofers used are generally the same and many times even the total power is similar(RB-81 and RF-82 are rated 150W each). Two woofers will cause vertical lobbing, a bigger cabinet will cause more internal resonance and the last thing is the higher port noise. Compared to RF-82s, RB-81s have absolutely no port noise or no vertical lobbing, so why should RF-82 be a better speaker. Smaller size, front firing port(placement is easier), adjustable height(by use of stands) should make RB-81s, superior in every way to RF-82 but everybody seems to love the RF-82s. The fact that two woofers can never be identical and will cause interference issues does not help either. To make them sound fuller, why wont you buy a much cleaner subwoofer (or say 2) rather than buying a RF-7.The subwoofers I have sound clean at exceptionally high volumes which rattle my house something I believe an RF-7 can never do that by itself.

So Woofer Size: 5.25"~6.5">4">>8">>10" (Bass Vs. Speed)

About power handling, I have an 18 by 14 room and my sweet spot is 12ft from the front, my receiver is is onkyo 706 (110watt per channel and the maximum is #80). At #38(with all the stereo Speakers fed with the same stereo sound, LEFT to all left and vice versa), around 30W per channel or less, it is really loud if not deafening and speakers can easily go upto #55(say 50W per channel) without any distortion or compression and I bet you will be deaf within 15 minutes at that volume (thanks to high efficiency/sensitivity of Klipsch Speakers). So why RF-7s >> RF-83 >> RF-82 >> RB-81 >> RB-61. I would prefer RB-61 any day over all others, even if I had the money.

In a 7.1 setup, Powerwise: RF-7s = RF-83 = RF-82 = RB-81 = RB-61=RVX54>RVX-42 or a combination thereof.

Tweeter Size: I cannot compare the tweeters in all these speakers because definitely a 1.75" Tweeter will sound better >1.25" > 1" >0.75" tweeter in the 1500Hz to 5000Hz but then the output higher than 5000-8000 (second, third and higher harmonics) will be better in the order 0.75">1">1.25">1.75". Again power is not the main criteria but the clarity, flat frequency response and even reproduction from say 2000Hz to 22,000Hz. I understand that 0.75" will be a bit weak(and can blow out) and will be missing 2000Hz to 4000Hz but thats why I think 1" or 1.25" is a good compromise. I think 1.25" should be the best (in case of original RF-83 and RF-63) but I love the treble from my 1" RVX-42s tweeters (RB-81s have the similar but better) almost even sounding in the entire range, so why would somebody rave about new RF-7s.

Tweeter Size: 1.25"~1">1.75">0.75"

Horn Shape: Last thing is the horns, My RVX-42s' horns are much better than the RB-81s horns. If you are in the sweet spot, the difference is not that significant (RVX-42 are still better), but as you slighly move away from the sweet spot, you can hear the honk from the RB-81s horns whereas RVX-42's circular horn has no honk in them even at 45 degrees, off or on the axis, they sound much more open than RB-81s. My anger arises from the fact because of the fans' opinion and popularity the RVX-42s(or say RSX-4 and RSX-5) got discontinued which IMHO are much better and open sounding. I have not heard the ICON X series yet but I believe their new horn should be better than the present or the past square horns any day. A deeper horn may mean better directionality/power at the axis but it also means louder honk.I thought Tractrix XT horn (or the exponential horn) was the best horn ever made as it is more exponential than circular or straight flared square horns.

Horn Shape: XT Better than Circular better than Square

It seems like in this country, Music means "BASS, BASS and BASS". A
10" woofer cannot and will not be as nicely sounding (mainly vocals and
piano) as a 6.5" . Period. 99% of vocals (except for the strong "F" or
"Pa"do not go beyond 80Hz) so ideally a 4" or a 5.25" or at maximum 6.5"
woofer should be sufficient. But people still love their RC-7s.

Woofer Size: 5.25"~6.5">4">>8">>10" (Bass Vs. Speed)

In the end, I love Klipsch and hate that Novel products like RVX-42s, Reference Cinema Series and ICON Series are turned down by self-proclaimed audiophiles. Is Klipsch just succumbing to your BASS needs or the bigger bulkier speakers are actually better? Not only the smaller ones are better but also that they are more compact and the only Klipsch products that can kill off competition from Cr*ppy speakers from BOSE.

[I wanna see BOSE CORP. dead someday.]

[Would love to see the mirage elliptical surround or Energy's Kevlar Woofers on Klipsch Speakers Someday)

[Dennie]

First off, let me say Welcome to the Klipsch Forums and we're glad your here!

I loved reading what you wrote! Okay, I did skip a few lines, but I got your point. You sure are passionate about your system and that is a great thing!

Congratulations! [Y]

Let me ask you this. Why do you think there are more than one flavor of Ice Cream?

People like choices and we all have different tastes and needs. Whether it be the Mighty Klipschorn, RF-7, RB-61, Pro Media, Image X 10, it is all Klipsch and we love it!

Stick around and get to know some of the good people here, there is a wealth of knowledge and people who love their system, just like you and I![]

Dennie

[saurabhiitd]

Hi Dennie,

Thanks for such a warm reply. I was a little pissed and I expected something similar replies.[]

I knew the first reply would be "taste" that is everyone has his own preference when it comes to music or music is subjective and on similar lines. But I mean most of the people here are audiophiles (I truly Believe that) and they are the people who I believe are "connoisseurs" of music who know a lot about sound and speakers. That also includes most of the editors/testers of home theater magazines like Stereophile, hometheatermag.com, sound and vision mag.com, ultimateAVmag.com etc etc. These are definitely far more experienced and knowlegeable than "Me".

So when you read reviews about different products and find them to be called with adjectives like excellent, amazing etc. which in reality may or may not concur with the real properties like extension, dynamics and clarity, you feel a bit sad.

I remember a professional review of XF-48s at some of the above magazines, which claimed that these were not as musical as the bigger bulkier reference series and thats why I did not buy those, now I feel cheated a little misled !!! Not a big deal though.

Also, I am not new here, I have been here for around two years and have read a lot about different things which is both interesting and enlightening.

Cheers!!!

Saurabh

[willland]

Saurabhiitd,

Welcome to the forum.

Funny how you have praised the RVX-42's. I have that setup in my bedroom HT system and could not be more pleased. Before I bought my RF-63's, the RVX-42's were in my main system in my 16 X 24 family room. For a smallish system, the impact and the clarity were very competent for HT use and for music. I set the crossovers on my Onkyo TX-SR705 at 100hz and let the 4in woofers handle the high bass and the midrange. To me, they sounded a lot bigger than they were. I felt like the mids rolled into the highs much smoother than many larger 2-way horn speakers. Now with my RF-63's, I get that same smoothness and clarity with an even bigger sound.

Bill

[saurabhiitd]

I agree 1.25" tweeter will blend in better with a 6.5" woofer compared to an 1" inch with 8 inch woofer and may be comparable (slightly better or slightly worse) than say a 1" tweeter and 4" woofer of RVX-42. I am still curious about the dynamics of the three woofers compared to those of RVX-42s... The best is to hear acoustic guitar at > say 600Hz..

Saurabh

[saurabhiitd]

Hi Bill,

To add, I think, the only problem I see with RVX-42s is that they (also RSX-4) roll off at ~92-100Hz whereas the perfect crossover with a good subwoofer is between 70-85. That leaves a good gap of ~20Hz and that was the main reason I bought RB-81 to fill that gap. Even if I X-over at 80Hz , RB-81s will fill in between 70-100 neatly. RB-51s have a loud hump around 100-150Hz (because of port noise) and a backward firing port which discouraged me from buying those.

Saurabh

[willland]

Saurabh,

Both the RVX-42 systems and the RB-81 systems have a pretty flat curve with a couple of dips along the way.

Here is Home Theater's RVX-42 System Lab Measures:

[willland]

As you can see from the previous post, the RVX-42 has a much flatter curve from 100hz to 1000hz where your acoustic guitar strings sound best.

Here is Home Theater's RB-81 system lab measures.

Bill

[saurabhiitd]

I know, I had seen both these figures before I bought the speakers and were the actual deciding factor to choose these instead of other klipsch bookshelf speaker. [Y] but I was curious about responses from other people.

[saurabhiitd]

I thought a bit over the horn shape and I guess other people may be more right than me (I am not wrong but read on....). I realized that a bigger room means bigger possible sweet spot and smaller rooms cannot have much bigger sweet spot. It seems like people have much bigger HT rooms than what I do. In that case, a tractix horn will be much better as it will have narrower dispersion and will concentrate the sound much better for a bigger sweet spot but for smaller rooms with a narrow sweet spot, they will have a cupped hand effect as you will be OFF-AXIS pretty quickly, something which happened to me. I moved 3 ft side ways from the sweet spot which meant a 45degrees off-vertical axis (and 20 degrees below tweeter axis), so my rears RB-81 had the cupped hand effect where as the RVX-42s(with a circular horn) doesnot because it has a wider dispersion pattern. Relative to 45 degrees Off-Axis RB-81s, I moved only 45 degrees to one RVX-42 (FL) and 15 degrees to RVX-42(FR) and only 10 degrees below the tweeter axis.