Cornscala 1" Squawker Currently Available?

[Pete H]

Too bad you are not using that setup with your Cornscala's, that combination is excellent. Then add a Klipsch B3 or "ALK AP-12 600 / AP-15 6000" crosover, and those Cornscala's would be fantastic

Yes it is!

[bigrfish]

Too bad you are not using that setup with your Cornscala's, that combination is excellent. Then add a Klipsch B3 or "ALK AP-12 600 / AP-15 6000" crosover, and those Cornscala's would be fantastic

Yes it is!

I 'spose I could, but for the fact that I had to cut the motorboard on the HF cabs to fit the big (17X10) mid horns I have now into theCornScala cabinets.

I spent nearly as much on the TracHorns and Atlas drivers as I did on ALL the components I have in the Cornscala cabinets now, just happened to see them for sale cheap on the garage sale portion of these forums. Ironically, the cabinets were originally designed to accept the same wooden horns.

They are just going to have to sound beautiful on the other side of the room, finished in a smooth yet mottled industrial black finish, on top of those rat fur KP3002 cabs...sort of like an art installation for the eyes and ears...the noteworthiness is in how industrial and just plain ugly the combination will look on the one hand, yet how tactilely interesting they will be to the touch, metal grills, fabric covering, and the ultra-satin smoothness of the wooden horns (I have both filled and sanded the living _ _ _ _ out of them and they are as smooth to the touch as a fine polished piece of carrera marble, waxed with Johnson's paste wax, etc) sitting in the open on top of the trapezoidal cabinets...but the ultimate contrast is how hideous they will look and how great they will sound....got an active crossover and an extra Crown so I am going to biamp them just to bring out the sonic beauty of the mid and high frequency sections, further enhancing the dichotomy....

Then, when somebody comes over, if I play the stereo, not gonna say a word about it, act like I just turned on an AM radio, casual and nonchalant, bring no added attention to it....and see what happens. Could be amusing...

[Pete H]

I 'spose I could, but for the fact that I had to cut the motorboard on the HF cabs to fit the big (17X10) mid horns I have now into theCornScala cabinets.

I spent nearly as much on the TracHorns and Atlas drivers as I did on ALL the components I have in the Cornscala cabinets now, just happened to see them for sale cheap on the garage sale portion of these forums. Ironically, the cabinets were originally designed to accept the same wooden horns.

They are just going to have to sound beautiful on the other side of the room, finished in a smooth yet mottled industrial black finish, on top of those rat fur KP3002 cabs...sort of like an art installation for the eyes and ears...the noteworthiness is in how industrial and just plain ugly the combination will look on the one hand, yet how tactilely interesting they will be to the touch, metal grills, fabric covering, and the ultra-satin smoothness of the wooden horns (I have both filled and sanded the living _ _ _ _ out of them and they are as smooth to the touch as a fine polished piece of carrera marble, waxed with Johnson's paste wax, etc) sitting in the open on top of the trapezoidal cabinets...but the ultimate contrast is how hideous they will look and how great they will sound....got an active crossover and an extra Crown so I am going to biamp them just to bring out the sonic beauty of the mid and high frequency sections, further enhancing the dichotomy....

Then, when somebody comes over, if I play the stereo, not gonna say a word about it, act like I just turned on an AM radio, casual and nonchalant, bring no added attention to it....and see what happens. Could be amusing...

I'm sure they sound great and I'm going to be doing a version with the original C 2's I have and I built the split Cornscala's when someone sold a set of Dave's horns to me because they didn't do their project. I'm sure you won't have any problem getting rid of the horns and drivers. The great thing about so many variations of Bob's original Cornscala is that you can go many different ways and end up with a very nice improvement over the original.

[bigrfish]

Mike,

Those H4427 horns are good. I had three choices in hand when I populated the wonderful cabinets that the Cigar Bum built (he swapped them to me for a box of cigars),and made my final decision by talking through them and listening to the sound of my own voice going out across the room. I could not think, at the time, of a better way to evaluate them...statistics and numbers only go so far....in the end we have to trust our ears, and there was a big difference.

How did you make this "simple contour network" ? What is that?? If I want an improvement, I think I should look at the dividing network before I start doing surgery on the cabinets. The off-the-shelf Eminence XO's I have, 500/3500 with 12dB/octave LP, 6dB/octave MPand 18dB/octave HP slopes, Butterworth filters, are fine for now, but it was a bare-bones project then and now I can start to tweak and improve. I would like to learn some as I go rather than just buying and wiring together a bunch of stuff, though.

I have thought about an 18" woofer for some time for these cabinets and would probably look at Selenium first. Since JW Cullison hit on the idea of a 2-woofer bass bin for the Cornscala design, "DBB CornScala" , I thought, why not look at an 18" driver? One 18" driver would have about 72% of the planar surface area that two 15's would, and certainly would have the potential to make more better bass than a single 15, with less distortion and more overall clarity, if it didn't muck up the porting and interior cubic volume dynamics.

I used the same tweeter lens as yours...but with a heavier Eminence driver, the PSD 2002-8. They will handle 80 watts and work from 1200 up to 20000 cps....and are plenty sizzley to suit me...even wired in L-pads just in case they were too bright, and have only used them once or twice due to anomalous recordings and ham-fisted mixing.

Great, fun reason to not go outside in the cold, huh?? Chuck

[bigrfish]

I 'spose I could, but for the fact that I had to cut the motorboard on the HF cabs to fit the big (17X10) mid horns I have now into theCornScala cabinets.

I spent nearly as much on the TracHorns and Atlas drivers as I did on ALL the components I have in the Cornscala cabinets now, just happened to see them for sale cheap on the garage sale portion of these forums. Ironically, the cabinets were originally designed to accept the same wooden horns.

They are just going to have to sound beautiful on the other side of the room, finished in a smooth yet mottled industrial black finish, on top of those rat fur KP3002 cabs...sort of like an art installation for the eyes and ears...the noteworthiness is in how industrial and just plain ugly the combination will look on the one hand, yet how tactilely interesting they will be to the touch, metal grills, fabric covering, and the ultra-satin smoothness of the wooden horns (I have both filled and sanded the living _ _ _ _ out of them and they are as smooth to the touch as a fine polished piece of carrera marble, waxed with Johnson's paste wax, etc) sitting in the open on top of the trapezoidal cabinets...but the ultimate contrast is how hideous they will look and how great they will sound....got an active crossover and an extra Crown so I am going to biamp them just to bring out the sonic beauty of the mid and high frequency sections, further enhancing the dichotomy....

Then, when somebody comes over, if I play the stereo, not gonna say a word about it, act like I just turned on an AM radio, casual and nonchalant, bring no added attention to it....and see what happens. Could be amusing...

I'm sure they sound great and I'm going to be doing a version with the original C 2's I have and I built the split Cornscala's when someone sold a set of Dave's horns to me because they didn't do their project. I'm sure you won't have any problem getting rid of the horns and drivers. The great thing about so many variations of Bob's original Cornscala is that you can go many different ways and end up with a very nice improvement over the original.

My plan is to use the TracHorns and Atlas drivers with my KP 3002's, converting them into a stereo 3-way system for my surround sound. I am using a TC Electronics (Pro Sound-style) multi-effects processor, adding a touch of reverb and delay to the back side of the room to expand and fatten up the sound. I got the idea from a studio session guitar player who was good friends with guitar legend Stevie Ray Vaughn. Stevie Ray used to run two amps on stage and make one of them relatively undistorted, and the other a little bit MORE overdriven and with a touch of delay and reverb, cross-firing toward his stage position. He could then walk in and out of a sweet spot that allowed him to more accurately control the dynamics of acoustic feedback that he used as a part of his guitar technique. B.B. King also has a similar rig where a remote cabinet is used for the reverb part of his guitar signal/sound. In my case it is like having a home-made surround processing system, with CornScalas, H-1's, a center channel and a subwoofer on the main side of the room and the KP-3002's with TracHorns on top, lightly processed, on the other side of the room, biamped.

[Pete H]

My plan is to use the TracHorns and Atlas drivers with my KP 3002's, converting them into a stereo 3-way system for my surround sound. I am using a TC Electronics (Pro Sound-style) multi-effects processor, adding a touch of reverb and delay to the back side of the room to expand and fatten up the sound. I got the idea from a studio session guitar player who was good friends with guitar legend Stevie Ray Vaughn. Stevie Ray used to run two amps on stage and make one of them relatively undistorted, and the other a little bit MORE overdriven and with a touch of delay and reverb, cross-firing toward his stage position. He could then walk in and out of a sweet spot that allowed him to more accurately control the dynamics of acoustic feedback that he used as a part of his guitar technique. B.B. King also has a similar rig where a remote cabinet is used for the reverb part of his guitar signal/sound. In my case it is like having a home-made surround processing system, with CornScalas, H-1's, a center channel and a subwoofer on the main side of the room and the KP-3002's with TracHorns on top, lightly processed, on the other side of the room, biamped.

You've gotta love trying new things and adding new equipment, it's what keeps our "sport" hobby alive.[]

[Mike Price]

Mike,

Those H4427 horns are good. I had three choices in hand when I populated the wonderful cabinets that the Cigar Bum built (he swapped them to me for a box of cigars),and made my final decision by talking through them and listening to the sound of my own voice going out across the room. I could not think, at the time, of a better way to evaluate them...statistics and numbers only go so far....in the end we have to trust our ears, and there was a big difference.

How did you make this "simple contour network" ? What is that?? If I want an improvement, I think I should look at the dividing network before I start doing surgery on the cabinets. The off-the-shelf Eminence XO's I have, 500/3500 with 12dB/octave LP, 6dB/octave MPand 18dB/octave HP slopes, Butterworth filters, are fine for now, but it was a bare-bones project then and now I can start to tweak and improve. I would like to learn some as I go rather than just buying and wiring together a bunch of stuff, though.

I have thought about an 18" woofer for some time for these cabinets and would probably look at Selenium first. Since JW Cullison hit on the idea of a 2-woofer bass bin for the Cornscala design, "DBB CornScala" , I thought, why not look at an 18" driver? One 18" driver would have about 72% of the planar surface area that two 15's would, and certainly would have the potential to make more better bass than a single 15, with less distortion and more overall clarity, if it didn't muck up the porting and interior cubic volume dynamics.

I used the same tweeter lens as yours...but with a heavier Eminence driver, the PSD 2002-8. They will handle 80 watts and work from 1200 up to 20000 cps....and are plenty sizzley to suit me...even wired in L-pads just in case they were too bright, and have only used them once or twice due to anomalous recordings and ham-fisted mixing.

Great, fun reason to not go outside in the cold, huh?? Chuck

I built my crossovers from scratch , based on driver parameters measured with a WT3 , and frequency responses measured with TrueRTA and a calibrated measurement rig. I wound up using the peavey midrange driver because it's frequency resaponse was the easiest for me to work with , so the actual values would be very different for the atlas driver , but in my case all that was needed was a 1.8mh inductor with a 30ohm resistor wired in parallel , in series with the driver , and of course a 500hz 2nd order high pass to roll off the bottom end. With every driver I measured on that horn (H4427), it showed a rising frequency response , rising about 10db between 500hz and 4000hz. The way to compensate for this rising response is to put an inductor inline that corresponds to the frequency you want to begin your tilt (downward) then you put a resistor in parallel with that inductor , its value dictates how much tilt will be achieved , inm my case it took 30ohms , to tilt it down the 10db necassary to flatten the overall response. This does lower the overall sensitivity of the midrange by 10db , but it was somewhere around 118db 1w when I started , so it was no big deal. I hope I have explained this well enough , it's a really simple method , I may just not be very good at explaining it. The speakers are built , by the way , and they sound wonderful.

[bigrfish]

Mike,

Those H4427 horns are good. I had three choices in hand when I populated the wonderful cabinets that the Cigar Bum built (he swapped them to me for a box of cigars),and made my final decision by talking through them and listening to the sound of my own voice going out across the room. I could not think, at the time, of a better way to evaluate them...statistics and numbers only go so far....in the end we have to trust our ears, and there was a big difference.

How did you make this "simple contour network" ? What is that?? If I want an improvement, I think I should look at the dividing network before I start doing surgery on the cabinets. The off-the-shelf Eminence XO's I have, 500/3500 with 12dB/octave LP, 6dB/octave MPand 18dB/octave HP slopes, Butterworth filters, are fine for now, but it was a bare-bones project then and now I can start to tweak and improve. I would like to learn some as I go rather than just buying and wiring together a bunch of stuff, though.

I have thought about an 18" woofer for some time for these cabinets and would probably look at Selenium first. Since JW Cullison hit on the idea of a 2-woofer bass bin for the Cornscala design, "DBB CornScala" , I thought, why not look at an 18" driver? One 18" driver would have about 72% of the planar surface area that two 15's would, and certainly would have the potential to make more better bass than a single 15, with less distortion and more overall clarity, if it didn't muck up the porting and interior cubic volume dynamics.

I used the same tweeter lens as yours...but with a heavier Eminence driver, the PSD 2002-8. They will handle 80 watts and work from 1200 up to 20000 cps....and are plenty sizzley to suit me...even wired in L-pads just in case they were too bright, and have only used them once or twice due to anomalous recordings and ham-fisted mixing.

Great, fun reason to not go outside in the cold, huh?? Chuck

I built my crossovers from scratch , based on driver parameters measured with a WT3 , and frequency responses measured with TrueRTA and a calibrated measurement rig. I wound up using the peavey midrange driver because it's frequency resaponse was the easiest for me to work with , so the actual values would be very different for the atlas driver , but in my case all that was needed was a 1.8mh inductor with a 30ohm resistor wired in parallel , in series with the driver , and of course a 500hz 2nd order high pass to roll off the bottom end. With every driver I measured on that horn (H4427), it showed a rising frequency response , rising about 10db between 500hz and 4000hz. The way to compensate for this rising response is to put an inductor inline that corresponds to the frequency you want to begin your tilt (downward) then you put a resistor in parallel with that inductor , its value dictates how much tilt will be achieved , inm my case it took 30ohms , to tilt it down the 10db necassary to flatten the overall response. This does lower the overall sensitivity of the midrange by 10db , but it was somewhere around 118db 1w when I started , so it was no big deal. I hope I have explained this well enough , it's a really simple method , I may just not be very good at explaining it. The speakers are built , by the way , and they sound wonderful.

Mike,

I appreciate you explaining that to me. It now makes sense why I had to work with my bass so much to finally get what I would term a pleasant sound out of the rig on the CornScala side of the room. I wonder if WinSpeakerz(detest the spelling)might be a useful tool to sort out this filter network situation with the rising response of the horn. I may phone the people in Tennessee who publish these softwares to ask them detailed questions. I probably will have other eventual uses for these tools. I am to the place where I can't really go further without some more comprehensive understanding of what I am dealing with...pin the tail on the donkey is not the most efficient method...

Chuck

[lotusmark]

Hey Chuck/Mike

I too bought the Hp4427 horns with p55v drivers. I'm going to use crites tweets and woofers for the other components. The woodworking I can handle but the electronics/crossover element is black magic to me. Is the rising rate due to the horn or the driver and is there a stock crossover solution to the issue.

Cheers

Mark

[bigrfish]

Hey Chuck/Mike

I too bought the Hp4427 horns with p55v drivers. I'm going to use crites tweets and woofers for the other components. The woodworking I can handle but the electronics/crossover element is black magic to me. Is the rising rate due to the horn or the driver and is there a stock crossover solution to the issue.

Cheers

Mark

Mark,

The problem, as I can understand it, is that the horn lens introduces an anomaly where the midrange is too peaky, and is louder than you would want it to be, so you fix it by the unique design of the crossover, custom made to that peculiar application of components you have selected. The solution, as I can understand it, lies in using this software from a company in Tennessee, http://www.trueaudio.com One piece analyzes a woofer(maybe other drivers too, or not??), and another, using a calibrated microphone, reads what is happening in your room, and another takes data you input and will figure out what you need to do to make the crossover be of the proper design for all the components to do what you intend them to do. You would be building your own crossover in that scenario, then testing it to make sure it was working in a proper military manner, possibly changing some of the components to modify to your liking. You have to have something in there to make it all play so you can do comprehensive testing and analysis for solidifying the final network design. It makes a lot more sense than just blindly installing and trying off-the-shelf components. Apparently there are no shortcuts, unless you get all the components, including the crossovers, from someone like Mr Crites http://www.critesspeakers.com

Al Klappenberger probably could also do something to help you http://www.alkeng.com/ Some components Mr K sells, and some he refers you to Mr Crites to acquire. Being so crafty in crossover design, either of them might be willing to make a dividing network for you and include a transformer with various taps that you could select for the mids to get the result you want....other than that, it appears to be a roll-your-own enterprise. There may be other forum members who would be glad to assist you in dividing network design. These are just two suggestions, not an exhaustive list by any means.

Good luck with it. I may wind up putting the trachorns that I have into my split-bin CornScala cabinets anyway, even though that was not my first impression of a path to follow. I have eq'ed and monkeyed with my bass, and with a 15" sub, to make mine sound actually pretty good. I will have to devise a way to mount them in the cabinets with the larger motor-board cutouts I will have to deal with by spacing out or devising some alternate mounting method. Knowing this characteristic of that big ABS plastic horn has injected a big wrinkle into my thinking about it all...and using the bigger HP 4427's along with my KP 3002's in a 3-way arrangement for surround duties may be my eventual path and make more sense. I did not want to uninstall and reinstall midrange horns in my CS's, but it might be that I would have a much better overall system if I did. The collective wisdom of the group seems top be pointing in that direction.

I am lucky in two regards, one is that I have two electronic crossovers to play with for the surround speakers, and the other is that I was going to have to break down the top-hats anyway to replace the zip-cord lamp wire I have the internals interconnected with with some oxygen-free 12ga wire I got from MonoPrice http://www.monopprice.com/home/index.asp

While I have them displaced and unassembled, it would take only probably an hour to an hour and a half to swap out the midhorns. That would be more than offset by the time I was intending to use making the trachorns presentable for using nekkid out in the open....it's all about tradeoffs, I guess.

If I were building from scratch, I most assuredly would go for Dr. Cullison's Double Bass Bin CornScala design. I am working with already-built cabinets that I swapped Bob Greene a box of cigars for. When he called himself theCigar Bum, he meant it!!

This is frying my brain. God Bless, and stay warm...

Chuck