B@W opinions

[techguy13]

I have recently purchased the PM5.1s and as a consequence have been bit by the audiophile bug. Hey don't laugh at the PMs until I owned these little beuts the only speakers I spent any time with where JVCs, Kenwoods, Sony and B-O-S-E (ackk) among other boxstore through-aways. I have recently listened to the B@W DM601 (2) S3s and was very impressed. As I like the PMs I am also considering other Klipsch speakers that may be in the caliber of the B@Ws, RF3s or RF5s. Have any of the more experienced ears had the opportunity to Demo the B@Ws next to an equivalent Klipsch product? Thoughts and opinions?

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Why do I work with computers? Because bobbing for onion rings in the deep fryer at McDonalds might be considered strange.

[SOUNDJUNKIE]

If you're considering a new pair of 601's, then buy a pair of used Heresys or Fortes for the same $$$$. I've listened to the entire B&W line, sans the 800's, owned the 803's & 802's, and can tell you without question that for the money you will do better with the Klipsch's.

[JoshT]

I agree wholeheartedly with SoundJunkie's conclusion, but I think the 601 is a decent, very neutral sounding speaker. I find it to be a bit on the bland side, but there is nothing really wrong with it and for $450 it is a good deal. I think you should consider it.

That said, for about the same money new, I would go for the Klipsch Synergy SB3, which may not be quite as neutral, but is a whole lot more engaging and dynamic in my opinion. A real gem, though not discussed much on this board. The RB5 is even better, but then you are entering a higher price point.

I love my newly acquired used Heresy IIs (see my other posts), for which I paid $400, but you should try to hear some first before you buy them. They are so sweet and dynamic -- to me really quite magical -- but they are big, bulky and do not go very deep. But did I mention I love them?

[SOUNDJUNKIE]

I would pick the RB3's over the B&W601 if you can put up the extra $. If you can spare the real estate AND the $, I'd choose either the RF3 of Heresy. The larger speakers are going to give you more ouput as opposed to the smaller ones. My sister in law just picked up a used Klipsch speaker pair(model escapes me) that is similar to the RF3's and while they produce prodigious amounts of bass compared to my brother in laws Heresys, or my Chorus II's for that fact, it is not clean bass by any means, a bit bloated. A used pair of Heresy would be cheaper and sound cleaner from bottom to top than the RF's, just not as low. Used Fortes would be cheaper than some new RF's as well and still get you down to 32HZ with relatively clean bass. Might even save you enough money to buy some new electronics. Check out ebaY, there were 3 or 4 Forte auctions running last I checked. It's all in the real estate.

[maxg]

Kind of opposite poles of the spectrum here. B&W's are a very relaxed non intrusive sound - Klipsch are live and loud - in your face speakers.

In essence I find the sound incomparible. If I wanted background music during a dinner party that didnt disturb anyone then I might consider B&W but for listening without dropping off to sleep it is Klipsch all the way.

There is something about the Klipsch sound that commands attention - which does make it dreadful for social gatherings - everyone stops talking and listens to the music - even at very low volumes.

On the other hand with some of my wife's friends this is a major advantage...

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My System: http://aca.gr/pop_maxg.htm

[Curmudgeon]

The best thing to do is grab a handful of your favorites CD's (or LP's if the dealer has a turntable) and spend a little time listening to both B&W and Klipsch. Whether they'll be used for music only or home theater should be factored in your choice, too, since the two lines of speakers produce a very different "type" of sound. Klipsch's tend to be rather efficient and usually don't require massive amounts of power to drive, on the average B&W's need clean high-current power to sound their best. Both lines are sensitive to front end equipment and will also show up any weaknesses in recordings, but to me accuracy is better than coloration.

I own both lines myself, I use B&W CDM9NT's for critical 2-channel music due to their ability to resolve voices and imaging along with fast, non-bloated bass. My home theater system uses 4 Cornwall's with an Academy center because they sound very much like movie theater speakers. The Cornwall's horn mids and tweeters work great with 5.1/6.1 tracks since the dispersion pattern is very directional, and the overall sensation of power on loud tracks is quite strong. On some recordings, especially heavy piano, brass, and "live" tracks the Cornwall's sound better in some ways than the B&W's, but the B&W's overall accuracy and ability to image gets the nod on most of the 2-channel music I listen to.

Before you throw any money down spend some time listening to different models using familiar music and move around in the dealer's listening room to see how they sound off-axis. If speakers only sound good in a very small sweet spot they are of little use, most of us like to get up & move around some once in a while. Price is an important consideration, the more you spend the more choices there are but the law of diminishing returns kicks in fast once you start spending more than $2,000.00. You didn't mention what kind of amplifier('s) you have but if they are garden variety mass-market amps you'll want to upgrade them too if you want to get the full potential from new speakers. Then comes the better preamp, interconnects, CD player, etc., etc., etc. Good luck!

[techguy13]

Thanx for the input guys. As I live in a smaller city (200 000ish) the selection of Klipsch speakers is limited for a live demo. The local Klipsch dealer generally caries the Synergy series and surprisingly has a pair RF7s on the floor but can bring in other models. The B@W dealer is the only other high end speaker shop in town and carries the full model range of B@Ws, excluding the painfully expensive "If your thinking of buying a Porsche you might want to look at these" Prestige (shells) speakers. The B@W dealer suggested the Harmon/Kardon AVR 120 amp to go with the DM 601(2) S3s, as I am looking to build up to a HT system though the primary use will be listening to CDs, and offered a weekend demo/loan of the system. As I am in Canada e-bay can be a bit of a hassle with shipping, duty, and brokerage fees though the $400 Heresy does look sweet. Any other comment/opinions welcome and appreciated. Thanx again.

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Why do I work with computers? Because bobbing for onion rings in the deep fryer at McDonalds might be considered strange.

[Cornwalled]

techguy13,

I had the opportunity to listen to a pair of Klipsch RF-5's next to a pair of B&W's, one of the 600 Series 2 towers, not sure exactly which model, but it was comparable price.

First they played the Klipsch. They put on a jazz cd, and I thought the bass was nice, really hit hard, but it was too much at times, and that horn sounded bright, adding an artificial zing onto everything.

Then he switched to the B&W's. After compensating for the efficiency differences, I found the B&W's to have a more balanced, more realistic sound, and they imaged FAR better. The bass was tighter, not as pronounced, and the highs were much smoother.

When he switched back to the RF-5's it felt like a smack in the face and I asked him to please switch back.

If it were me, I'd go with the B&W's but in the end, choose what YOU like best, not what others want FOR you. Klipsch's new stuff just doesn't seem as good as what some other companies are doing.

Jon

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markvi82@hotmail.com

1981 Cornwall I's

Yamaha DSP-A1000 integrated amp

Acoustic Research AR3A's for Pro-Logic rears

(Music only setup)

Marantz CD Player

Pioneer turntable with Audio Technica cartridge

[JoshT]

Interesting perspectives from Audioholic and Cornwalled, who each have preferred the sound of B&Ws over Klipsch for music.

It's all a matter of taste. I have KLF 20s in the living room with decent, but not exotic, electronics (Rotel and Sherwood Newcastle). I have B&W CDM1SEs in the bedroom with a Krell KAV300i. And I have Heresy IIs sitting in the living room waiting for a permanent home, which will eventually be in the bedroom with a tube amp (I'll keep the B&Ws also to switch back and forth).

I agree that the B&Ws tend to sound more neutral and handle vocals very well, but to me they are not as engaging, and hence as musical, as the KLF20s. OK, apples and oranges, since one is a small monitor and the other a big tower. But to me, the Klipsch Synergy SB3 sounds much more engaging, live and musical than the B&W 601s. The SB3 is totally ignored on this board, which is a shame. At $450 MSRP it is a BARGAIN. I know nothing about the Synergy towers, but the SB3 is the competitor to the 601s -- it's even about the same size.

Techguy 13 -- it would seem that your dealer could hook each up to decent electronics and compare them for you. If so, give it a whirl and let us know what you think. While I would opt for used Heresys over a new SB3 at the same price, not all would agree. In fact, I have a friend who has SB3s hooked up to an NAD receiver and they sound great. He thinks they sound better than my Heresys. Who knows? They both sound great, but different.

B&W is a good speaker though, and the 601 is nice and polite, and if it sounds better to you than the SB3, then you should get it.

[leok]

The comparison between the B&W and Klipsch sound more like a comparison between efficiencies. I suspect that the reason the Klipsch speaker(s) sound more harsh is that they operate at lower power where the (I am guessing) high powered amplifier that was used, contributed more distortion. Compare a B&W driven by a transistor amp and Klipsch driven by an SET and the harshness will probably come from the B&W.

In order to perform a fair comparison, the amplifier distortion should be the same at the powers used for each speaker. With a transistor amp, this is generally not possible. Thansistor amps have considerable distortion at low power.

When I auditioned a set of RF-7s, which I now own, I brought my own amp to the store because they did not have an amp with low distortion at low power. The sales reps were shocked. They had never heared Klipsch speakers sound so natural and image so well.

For me to achieve the quality of sound I have with my RF-7s and a good low powered amp, would cost thousands of additional dollars were I to use B&W speakers.

I suggest that a good amp for Klipsch speakers would have 20W or less, probably use tubes or would be solid state class A.

[JoshT]

I agree with leok, but I do think that there are commercially available, moderately priced, ss amps out there that sound very good with Klipsch speakers (at least with Legend towers and Synergy monitors). Rotel and NAD come to mind.

Let's put it this way, to my ears there is more "sizzle" from the metal dome tweeters in my B&W CDM1SEs, at least when driven by the little Krell beast, than there is from the horns of my KLF20s when driven by a Rotel power amp and Sherborn Newcastle pre/pro. The Klipsch have a more forward sound in the midrange, but the B&Ws have a hotter treble.

I'm not complaining about either, as I like them both, but the B&Ws have a reputation of sounding bright because of their tweeters. I think the Klipsch can sound bright because of their midrange, and I think that is probably where the tubes do the most good.

I'm still looking for the right tube set-up to drive both my newly acquired used Heresys II and my CDM1SEs. I auditioned the CJ PV-14L and MV-60 extensively at the dealer a week ago yesterday (with CDM1NTs), and was not as impressed as I had been the weekend before that (but sometimes my mood may affect how I perceive the sound). I'm still considering the AES Super Amp with the AES preamp with remote, but would have no opportunity to first audition them. Another possibility is the new Cary Rocket 88, but I have not had a chance to audition it (since the local dealer does not yet have enough models to set up a demo), and I'm not sure how to keep the costs down if I get that plus a preamp with remote.

[leok]

Folks,

JoshT, You're make a good point. I generalize. I have done some amplifier design and am an electrical engineer by profession. Starting from a clean sheet of paper, with the objective: create an amplifier for my Forte IIs and RF-7s, I have yet to figure out how to begin with either the bipolar or FET transistor, although I use them daily in less demanding applications (that includes just about everything except audio amplification). They are inherently non-linear and require massive feedback (FETs not quite as non-linear). I do acknowledge that effective transistor amplification of sub-Watt applications can be implemented, but it is very difficult .. certainly beyond me. I have implemented 2 successful designs, one using the Tripath TA1101B IC and the other using tubes. Both the Tripath and tubes are inherently linear.

I believe, the result of the fundamental problem is, for the Klipsch application, there are a lot of very bad transistor amplifiers and a few good ones. There are a lot of reasonable tube amplifiers and a few bad ones. So, when people ask, I try to steer them into a region where I think they are more likely to achieve success.

I try to encourage people to at least audition a low distortion @ low power amp with a Klipsch speaker, before concluding that horns are harsh. JoshT, I think you are already there. You're looking at some pretty nice amps and confronting the problem where it resides, in the amp. I don't know about techguy13. So before he decides he can do better with B&W and a run-of-the-mill transistor amp, I wanted to steer him towards an amp that would give him a better understanding of what he is really trading.

So, the question is, how do we steer someone who asks "why do my Klipsch speakers sound harsh?" or "what kind of amp should I use?" to an amp that will reveal the strengths of the Klipsch speaker, not the weakness of the amp?

[TBrennan]

Loek---I've heard some very good sound with horns and pretty conventional SS amps. Mike Bakers bi-amped rig with QSCs and JBL 3115s sounded outstanding at Lima. A friend built a TriPath and it's the best damned amp I ever heard. I've heard it on Altec VOTs, Altec 605s, JBL 3115s, Lowther-Medallions, B&G ribbons and a big JBL DIY horn rig. Outstanding amp. In Lima, running my 605s, it crushed 2 highly regarded SETs; a dual 300B AudioNote and a Korneff 45. The AudioNote sounded particularly lousy, like there were towels draped over the speakers.

This message has been edited by TBrennan on 04-22-2002 at 07:00 PM

[Curmudgeon]

I agree with TBrennan: horn-loaded speakers and solid-state amplifiers are not mutually exclusive. I run the B&W CDM9NT's with Aragon Palladium II monoblocks and the four Cornwalls/Academy setup with three Aragon 8008ST's, although I have switched them a couple of times for comparison. The Palladium II's are excellent amps producing Class A up to 125 WPC and will drive almost any speaker made, they sound quite nice and put most tube equipment to shame in the bass control department. The 8008ST's are also excellent and have a slightly "darker" sound that matches well with the horn drivers along with really good bass control.

Prior to the Aragon Palladium's I was using a Mobile Fidelity UltrAmp that was very sweet, the amp is a Michael Yee design and basically the same as his PA-1 model. The Michael Yee amps are designed to retain the bass control and imaging of a solid-state amp but emulate the "warm" mid-range and treble frequencies of tube units. His unique designs work well and the amps aren't overpriced either, the newer PA-2 model can be had new for around $1300.00. The build quality is first class and the amps will probably outlive you.

Just for the record, I've got nothing against tube amps and have heard some Rogue tube-powered stuff that's really nice but I just don't have the time or knowledge to get into them now. I used to play around with tube radios when I was a teenager but that was when most corner drug stores and Radio Shacks had a tube tester in-house, making tube problems easy to diagnose (and tubes were cheap then, too). Since nowadays the "good" tubes are NOS and expensive I'm sticking to SS stuff. Besides, if my car or trailer needs welding the Palladium's work for that, too!

[leok]

TBrennan, Audioholic,

Thanks for the responses. You've provided references in areas where information is hard to find.

The fact is I'm not completely sold on tubes myself, but between what I have built and what I've heard at stores (including the NADs of my own that I finally gave up on) I havn't had much for comparison. By the way, JoshT, the NADs I have are not the latest or greatest from that manufacturer.

I was particularly interested in the Tripath comparisons. I've been trying to figure out how to compare My Tripath design with exactly the amps that TBrennan mentioned.

What I listen to mostly is the Tripath. I don't have a more conventional ss design that comes close: none of the amps you mention, for example. For a change, I hook up the KT66 design, and am working, with mdeneen's help on an improved phase splitter for it.

Thanks, again

leok

[JoshT]

Hey leok,

I think it's all a matter of expectation. I am not suggesting that NAD or Rotel will best a nice tube amp. If that were the case I'd go buy a used C340 integraged amp for less than $400 with remote. But I do think that NAD and Rotel stuff sounds quite nice with Klipsch for a reasonable price, if your expectations are realistic.

I actually prefer the SB3s diven by a NAD C740 receiver in many regards to the CDM1SEs driven by a Krell KAV300i at more than triple the price. The later combo can be more refined, but not necessarily more engaging, and has its own flaws (such as a sizzling treble on some recordings).

My tube search is still on. I'm awfully curious about the Rocket 88! Not sure about the CJ PV-14L and MV-60. Need a further audition to decide.

Regards,

Josh