REL Storm III

[Marathon Man]

Does anyone have any opinion on the Rel Storm III? I am supposed to go listen to one tomorrow, but im curious if anyone has heard the sub or had any experience with it. I can't seem to find any independent reviews on the product.

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MM

[Ray Garrison]

Hi there.

Until events forced me to sell my system, I was using an original series REL Storm with a pair of La Scalas. I'd used Velodyne (original F1500), M&K (don't remember model number) and VMPS (Larger Subwoofer). I was happiest with the REL. It didn't have the ability to as loudly as extremely low frequencies as the VMPS, but then again they're about the size of a commercial freezer. It is a very musical sub, has a very flexible crossover management system, extends very deep for its size and doesn't take up a heck of a lot of floor space.

If you do go with REL, I'd strongly suggest following their suggestion and running the sub in parallel with you main speakers, and driving the mains full range. See the rel.net website for a full explination of why they think this is a good thing.

Ray

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Music is art

Audio is engineering

Ray's Music System

[Marathon Man]

Ray,

Thanks for the input. I was able to find a review or two on the Storm III and as you stated the suggestion was to run it with the high level inputs vs the line level inputs, and the reason is so that you can have uniformity in sounds from the same amp that drives the main speakers. At least thats what I got out of it. I did not make it over to listen to the Rel today as I planned, because I went and listened to a JL Lab sub.. the 900 I think. WOW what a fantastic sounding subwoofer. very transparent, very fast, and accurate. The JL Lab has a frequency response of 28-120 Hz, but the bass extension was out of this world. You pointed out that the Rel did not play that loud down low, but when you think about it thats ok. If you understand anything about low frequency sound waves you will know that you never will really hear a true 20 Hz sound wave unless you are at least 30 feet away from the sub because the wave is so huge. I think what people confuse for 20 Hz sound is actually trumped up 30 Hz frequency due to the compression in the room at 15 feet away which is the sitting position of most peoples home theater. Im sure I will get some debate on that, but thats the way it is. at 15 feet away you are only going to hear about 30 Hz with anything below that being absorbed in the room. Im looking at the Rel because Im after more accurte, and fast bass resonse. Thanks for the reply.

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MM

This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-19-2002 at 05:06 PM

[TVodhanel]

>>>If you understand anything about low frequency sound waves you will know that you never will really hear a true 20 Hz sound wave unless you are at least 30 feet away from the sub because the wave is so huge. I think what people confuse for 20 Hz sound is actually trumped up 30 Hz frequency due to the compression in the room at 15 feet away which is the sitting position of most peoples home theater. Im sure I will get some debate on that, but thats the way it is.<<<

This is a common myth(not so common anymore really)based upon the incorrect assumption that a *soundwave* has to completely "unfold" to be heard. If this were true....Headphones wouldn't be able to generate lower than what...500hz?

I sit about 3 ft from my current subwoofer, I guess I'm stuck with nothing < 150hz or so?

TV

[Marathon Man]

Ok, why don't you fill us in on just how it works. Im not being sarcastic, and Im sorry if Im coming off that way, but if Im wrong I would like to know so I can have it straight in my mind..

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MM

This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-19-2002 at 11:08 PM

[TVodhanel]

sorry if I came off harsh, was just passing thru in a big hurry before

the problem is that a *soundwave* has no need to unfold completely to be heard/felt.I've seen pages and pages of text on the subject...but that is what it boils down too.

TV

[TheEAR]

TV,

"This is a common myth(not so common anymore really)based upon the incorrect assumption that a *soundwave* has to completely "unfold" to be heard. If this were true....Headphones wouldn't be able to generate lower than what...500hz?"

LOL

True,so many lunatic myths float online,I guess then in my small HT room I dont hear 20Hz,its my imagination.Sad story

What do you think about VMPS subs,I heard a few talking as if VMPS subs were GOD sent subs.Did not hear any unit myself but wondering if you did?I doubt their claims are true.And besides the SVS Ultra should outperform the best VMPS has to offer(correct me if I am wrong).

At least VMPS tower speakers are not hype.

Did you hear about Hi-Vi Research? Hi-Vi are so "inspired" by Dynaudio they make almost dare I say "COPIES" of Dynaudio mid bass drivers.Their calim to fame.I guess they just follow the leader LOL

TheEAR(s) Now theears

This message has been edited by TheEAR on 04-20-2002 at 12:25 AM

[Marathon Man]

"True,so many lunatic myths float online,I guess then in my small HT room I dont hear 20Hz,its my imagination.Sad story"

My belief in this did not come from some conversation on some internet chat room. It came from engineers who have designed recording studios for more than 20 years, which has also been substantiated by other pyhsics majors that I have spoken with about the subject as well as reading that I have done on the subject. I don't consider that to be a "lunatic myth". However being that Im not a physics professor I am willing to give you the BOTD. Please explain yourself. If its a myth then dispell the myth with fact on how you hear a true 20 Hz sound wave sitting 15 feet away from the source. In the mean time I will research the issue myself further. If you can do that maybe we can all learn something.

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MM

This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-20-2002 at 09:40 AM

[Marathon Man]

TV,

I agree with feel the preasure from a 20 Hz or infrasound frequency (below 20 Hz), but actually hearing this at 20 Hz sitting 15 feet away is what i don't beleive. The way I understand it is that if the wave is larger than the room in which you are sitting in the wave is compressed (made smaller)and/or gets absorbed into the walls which if this is true then this would constitute a different frequency. Im sure that we are in agreement that the higher the frequency the tighter the wave thus the theory. It makes sense to me, but I am going to do some further research on the matter. I am going to also get some feedback from the bunch on the hometheater board. That is a pretty technical bunch and It would be interesting to see how they feel about the subject as well.

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MM

This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-20-2002 at 09:44 AM

[Marathon Man]

LOL! I saw that on HTF Tom. lets just see how it plays out. You might be right. I really would like to get a definitive answer tho.. either case its very important information to have a correct understanding on.

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MM

[TVodhanel]

M-Man,

if you want to email Tom Nousaine to check with him...

nousaine@aol.com

Ears,

never heard a vmps woof...there was one review in an older speaker builder I remember seeing.I could probably dig it up and fax it to you if you like?

given their size(a decent size fridge)...it wouldn't surprise me if they performed really well.

TV

[HornEd]

Hmmm, I always thought that the pressure created by a sound wave pushed against the ear drum for a period of time to create a psychoacoustics impression on the principal organ of hearing... the brain. Clearly, it is impossible for a 34' long to fit in an ear canal all at once whether you are five feet away or thirty-five feet away.

The amazing fact is that the debate over two-way or three-way speakers is resolved with a one-way ear drum vibrating as the sound waves of whatever length pass by. That is why acoustically engineered earphones and concert halls bring the "sound studio or our mind" as much as they do.

The size and shape of the room has to do with reflective sound waves that interact with the discreet waves emanating from the speakers... this shapes both the phenomenon and the quality of the sweet spot in any given room with any given speaker set.

Great sound is usually a product of discreet slices of sound mixed with the hash of ambient (i.e., reflected) sound. Speaker technologies designed to spray sound away from the sweet spot (e.g., conventional surround technology) increase the audio hash reaching the sweet spot hopefully hiding the imperfections of audio mixes, wimpy pre-amp/amps, speaker mis-matches and placement, etc. And, certainly, many of us on the Klipsch Forum prefer the excitement of horns that reveal the quality and lack there of in audio presentations... to the forgiving aspects of so called "audiophile" speakers that render lesser quality recordings as acceptable ear pap of the upscale multitudes.

A speaker doesn't have to be 34' long to create a 34' long wave... why should an ear drum need to be 34' away in order to oscillate to the nanosecond-by-nanosecond effect of a passing sound wave. If I have somehow missed the big picture of the reality of psychoacoustics... please reply and help me out of my blissful ignorance. -HornED

[Marathon Man]

Ed,

Before we can appreciate sound, waves in the air reach the outer ear or auricle (pinna) which in lower animals contributes to the localization of the origin of the sound. The sound waves then reach the tympanic membrane. The membrane vibrate and the vibration is transmitted to the inner ear by mean of the three small bones, malleus (hammer), anvil and stirrup. The vibration causes the stirrup to act as a piston which by displacement of a small and thin membrane on the oval window of the cochlea displaces the endolymphatic content of the cochlea duct. Displacement makes the portion of the membrane where hair cells rest to undulate in conjunction with another membrane on top of the hair cells, making the hair cells transduce the mechanical energy into neural stimulation. From the hair cells of the inner ear, the neural stimulus is transmitted by the afferent cochlear nerve fibers to the brain stem; and from there to the various stations along the brain center up to the cortex where speech and sound are finally decoded. . Your right, and if you did have a 34' ear drum then you will be a very funny looking person .

There is no doubt that most human ears can hear 20 Hz sound unless you have hearing damage. The debate is what happens to a sound wave that is larger than the room the sound is originated in such in the case of 20 Hz sound in a say a 22' X 15' room. Do you really hear that sound at 20 Hz? My opinion is that you cannot, but with opposition to my statement a few threads up (which is a good thing if Im incorrect) im wondering if I have been right about this. So we are trying to find out the truth.

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MM

[Manuel Delaflor]

Marathon Man

Perhaps this image can help. Imagine that we are talking about pools. In your view, if a wave is so big that, to accomplish its cicle, it would require several pools, you are not experimenting the wave. Right?

But we are talking here about the pressure a wave can make. And of course, no matter how big the wave is, its movement will MOVE WATER, it doesn't matter if their cycle is not completed.

I hope I made myself clear.

This message has been edited by Manuel on 04-20-2002 at 01:05 PM

[Marathon Man]

thats a good point. No doubt that as the source generates the 20 Hz sound preasure wave that the air will compress and move. The vibrating driveer causes displacement which compresses the air thus causes the preasure wave thus causes sound. Im not debating that you will hear something. My stance is based solely on the fact that a 20 Hz frequency or any frequency is derived by the size of the full cycle of the wave. If the wave cannot unfold fully then you don't have a true 20 Hz frequency. This is my understanding, and I may be incorrect, but I have yet to hear an arguement that contradicts this. I did not say you don't hear any sound, of course you do, but whatfrequency are you hearing is my concern. Look at it this way. If you hear a car that is playing music that is producing sound waves across the entire audible frequency range 20 Hz to 20 Khz. Lets say this car is 500 feet away you will hear the lower octives first without hearing the upper frequencies. You know what Im talking about boom boom hear comes this car. The closer this car gets to you the lower frequecies start to fade and is replaeced by the higher frequencies. This is not because the sound wave from the lower freqs are moving faster, its because they are much larger. As the car passes you the reverse happens. Have you ever gotten a call from your nieghbor about your tweeters are knocking pickers off his wall? No he calls you and tells you to turn down the bass becasue he does not even hear the higher frequencys because they are not large enough to make it to his house. This has to be the same effect when sitting in a room where the room is smaller than the sound wave is large. At least thats the way I understand it. Good stuff.

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MM

This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-20-2002 at 04:26 PM

[HornEd]

MM, thanks for the refresher course on the mechanics of hearing... but even at my age I remember those lectures from my early medical training.

Further, if I can think back to those days, it seemed that wavelength = velocity/frequency. At sea level, the velocity is 13,500 feet per second... which could be mathematically juxtaposed to suggest the amount of time that it takes a 34 foot wave to stimulate a "bass sound" on the ear drum or other body surface to stimulate the chain reaction of hearing or feeling sensations interpreted by the brain.

My point is that the discrete soundwave would pass through the "observer" in the sweet spot undeterred except for competing soundwaves from other speakers or by reflection of earlier soundwaves which may cancel, alter or reinforce the wave in question.

If it is your point, Marathon Man, that a smaller room creates reflections that interact with newly generated waves to alter their character... I can understand where you are coming from. That's the reason that PWK and James Hunter were awarded U.S. Patent #4,387,786 for an Anechoic Chamber Arrangement that minimize reflections and increase repeatable accuracy of acoustic measurements of corner horns (Page 91, PWK, Life...Legend). Modern anechoic chambers are modular with sound absorbing walls that allow them to be smaller than the wavelengths tested.

Clearly, "real world" sound is not what instruments are testing in an anechoic chamber... since the real world has a myriad of variables that may re-shape the perceived sound... and the longer the wave the more the opportunity for corruption. In my own experience with A/B comparisons of half-a-dozen subs, the subs that were tuned lower definitely created a different perception of tone generated signals between ones that could reach 20Hz and those that rolled off around 30Hz.

I don't know what I was hearing in terms of engineering precision... but it certainly made the difference in what holds the subwoofer positions in my current sound system. If I am still a blockhead, please knock again! -HornED

[Marathon Man]

Ed,

LOL! you came with it that time. And with that I will concede. I except your explanation as it is the best that I have heard thus far instead of... "its a myth" because as we know myths and ledgends are build on a foundation of truth. I am not a physics professor. I just beleive that in a room smaller than the sound wave the characteristics of the wave have to be altered, and if that is the case it makes one think how much does this effect home theater... maybe not much, but it was interesting.

If you beleive that you hear something just because someone tells you, you do, you have no sense of the truth. When it comes to home theater and home audio manufactures play a games with consumers and try to fudge specs to make products look good and make you think you are hearing something your not, and I aint going so quietly. I just want the truth. This has nothing to do with any specific product so lets not go down that path, but we all know that dealers most of which are very good and very helpful, and honest, but there are some that will tell you anything to sell you their product, and the sad thing is that most of these lies are backed up with fudged spec sheets from manaufactures. Anyway that brings me full circle with the reason I opened this thread in the first place. Im auditioning subs. I have looked at a few, and I think I have made a decision. I am going to go with the JL lab 900 in my music listening room, and I am going to add the SVS Ultra to my HT room to be out front with the RSW-15 in the rear. Ok SVS this is your chance to make me happy, because I never ever buy anything without hearing first, but with amost a billion subs sold that many people can't be wrong (or could they) just playing, just playing.... I really want to a strong bottom octave in my theater, and SVS sounds like its going to be the thing I need. Phew! Tom (TV) drop me an email and sell me a sub please.

By the way TV it was your headphone logic that really made me second guess myself, so your to blame for all of this. Just kidding Good job.

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MM

This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-20-2002 at 05:33 PM

[boa12]

mm, though i've yet to hear ultra(s) or that JL, sounds like some excellent choices. when you hear (or feel) that higher spl extension below 20hz at your place, it'll be a whole new world.

i've had subs that drop off at 30hz & the hgs that is flat to 12.5hz, & my own ears/senses tell me it's there. mostly on the undertones of the explosions, thunder & such.

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My Home Systems Page

[Marathon Man]

Boa12,

Yup, can't wait. I will pick up the Jl next week and order the SVS. I am going to try and contact someone at SVS to see what they recommend in my room. Not at all familure with their prodoct. I think I want to use a mono block to drive it, but don't know if I want to spend that kinda money yet. I have a extra channel on the 7260 that I may use first and see how it (the SVS) sounds. Hey how much do you know about passive radiator sub designs? I wonder about something. I wonder if I will get better positioning with the RSW if I turn it around and aim the PR into the corner vs the powered driver. Whatcha think?

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MM

This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-20-2002 at 09:03 PM

[Manuel Delaflor]

"No doubt that as the source generates the 20 Hz sound preasure wave that the air will compress and move."

Ok, another example, why do you think that a small sub like the Sunfire's can put almost as much deep bass as a "giant" (by comparision) SVS 20?

Because the pressure is there. We are talking here about the continuous application of a concrete force. If the force is transmited the sound will be there, it doesn't matter the size than the wave need to "complete" a cycle.

The wave (or our ears) don't care *at all* about this "completeness".