One Step Closer.....

[Mlstrass]

....to "my" ultimate HT. The diy sonosub is finished and is kicking *** all over the place! I still have a few cosmetic things to do and need to paint the amp box, but the sound this thing puts out is AMAZING!!

I've demoed most of the great actions scenes from: U-571, The Haunting, Matrix, Lethal Weapon 4, Titan AE, etc... and this sub totally kicks but. LOUD and CLEAN is the best way to describe it. Also sounds amazing for music; from AC/DC to Brian Setzer, techno, old school stuff, etc....compliments my collection of Legends quite well.

I will have SPL levels and pics in another week or so as I'll be out of town for a week on business. The 20's should be here by then so I'll put them in as surrounds and I should also have the magnets for the KLF-10 CC. Now I just need room to put my extra 10's in the rear for the back center. Plus a WS HDTV would be nice but no room for that right now.

Another week or so and I'll be calibrating and then doing LOTS of listening/viewing and inviting over friends/family to give a little demonstration....at Reference level of course

This message has been edited by Mlstrass on 04-19-2002 at 12:10 AM

[forresthump]

"One Step Closer....." And one Step back. Dude you should a got an SVS.

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go forth & hump the world

[Mlstrass]

forresthump,

You mean those cute little "starter tubes" that SVS makes??

My dual Tempest beast will whoop a pair of SVS's. Gotta realize it's basically the same thing, a cylinder style sub, but with dual 15's.

Now I just gotta figure out where to put another one...Mike

[HornEd]

Could be, Mlstrass, but I have encountered other similar Sonotube designs that didn't measure up due to the difference in driver quality, port design, durability issues, etc. If yours proves to be the exception, I am sure there are lots of us who would like to hear about it in the subwoofer section.

But, first, how soon to you expect to round up the bucking magnets and unleash the power of your KLF-10 Center/Main? -HornED

[sseymour]

I just wanted to chime in here and vouch for the quality of the Adire woofers. I built a sub using the Shiva (the 12" version of the Tempest) and it is great.

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KG-4 Fronts

RC-3 Center

Infinity Reference 1 Surrounds

Sony DB830

[Mlstrass]

HornEd,

First, realize that the "starter tubes" comment was in jest. I have great respect for SVS and the subs they build. I was 99% ready to order a pair until I started reading all the posts on the HTF. Being a DIY kinda guy I just had to give it a try.

Adire seems to be as well respected when it comes to driver/speaker kits, so I feel quite confident that I built a winner. I built it rock solid and right to spec for a 17Hz tune. Gotta remember that SVS subs are basically DIY sonotubes that have been refined and made available to the public. Great product!

The sound it puts out is incredible to say the least. Watching Titan AE today at low volume -28 I had to run out to my detached garage to get something and the bass was audible and shaking stuff in the garage.

I don't doubt that some DIY stuff fails to live up to expectations as some people just don't have the ability to build it properly, or scrimp on buying good components, but you and I don't have that problem

I ordered the magnets and x-over last Friday, but they didn't ship this week. I'll be out of town next week, so it will be awhile. In the meantime I hope to break out the test disc/RS meter and do some calibrating.

Oh yeah, was watching the beginning of Lethal Weapon 4 last night and when the gas tanker exploded, the bass hit so hard it blew out a light bulb. Extreme bass may get expensive....

The 20's I bought off of e-bay last week should also be here next week

This message has been edited by Mlstrass on 04-19-2002 at 10:15 PM

[HornEd]

My hat's off to you, Mlstrass, and I look forward to any photos or comments on your sub and KLF-10 center. I also have heard many good reports on Adire but have also read threads of Sonotube disasters by the "less adept" among us.

In fact, one can still find old threads where the founders of SVS were just two guys in different states with a common interest in building DIY subs and with a lot of helpful comments to their fellow DIY builders. Their company is incredibly small when compared with Klipsch... but they have done a remarkable job in selecting employees, upgrading their techniques and products, and learning how to become an ever expanding company. Obviously, when a company is small enough for the founder and designer of their product to be able to personally respond to emails... a most enjoyable aspect for me... but the sign of a company that has a lot of growing to do.

Your building of a 30" tube with two 15" woofers was particularly interesting since Tom Vodhanel offered (on this Forum) to custom design and build for me a 30" tube with four specially selected 15" woofers for a new listening environment that I should be building later this year.

Of course, one must remember that I turned to the musicality and slam of SVS before Klipsch had upped the subwoofer quality ante with the intro of their RSW-15 BASH powered winner. I bought five of their older KSW subs (two 15's and three 12's) while experimenting with the acoustics of multiple subs in an all Klipsch system. In those days, IMHO, Klipsch was far more adept at building horns than subs.

Then too, any Sonotube design gets its inherent potential for high SPL's, musical clarity and freedom from the "Curse of Boom" by having the raw cubic inches and minimal flex that a cylinder can provide more cost-effectively than a square. When it comes to making a square behave, my hat goes off to Bob Carver.

So far, five concepts have been proven to my satisfaction by first hand experimentation with 5.1, 6.1 and 7.1 HT rigs...

1. There is no substitute for five identical quality horn loaded speakers in a 6.1 plus Front Effects configuration in a listening environment with good or better acoustics, competent speaker positioning, SPL meter calibration, plus an adequate sub and speakers set to "SMALL." The popular notion that somehow one "loses" by replacing good sound in low frequency by better low frequency sound is more "common error" than common sense.

2. The true audio potential of a front array is not experienced until the center is the audio equal of the mains in drivers, cubic-inches and porting. the CENTER is "THE MAIN" speaker when it handles over 75% of the total sound in 5.1 (and above) HT audio mixes. Our heads are configured with a "predator set" of forward focused eyes and ears. The greater the array of sights and sounds to our front... the better. Front Effects speakers allow a wider sound stage with the Right & Left Mains brought closer to the screen for better linkage to onscreen dialogue and action.

3. The true audio potential of any HT system cannot be achieved with less than an "adequate" sub... and that means reaching (or exceeding) the specs of an RSW-15. So much of the "awesome" aspects of great HT are based in the bass found in the second octave... and too few subwoofers can deliver it with the force, clarity and precision that the term "awesome" should require. A "good" sub is far better at producing sub-20Hz to 80Hz with significant SPL volume than is available from most "great" speakers can. Further, great speakers freed of the <80Hz generally produce a far better mid-range performance.

4. Matching the tone and timbre of "Massive Mains" with an under-sized, under-performing set of monopole side-surround speakers is far less than the ideal of three well placed monopole surrounds identically matched to the main speakers... for such is the assumption by those who mix today's DVD's. Our "predator set" of ears is far less oriented to sounds from behind EXCEPT for engendering feelings of tranquility, tension and alerts to danger. One pair of Klipsch WDST technology side-surround is a better-than-average "band-aid" to cover the defects in room acoustics and the marginal surround sounds available from ProLogic or stereo sources... while, in effect, adding a phantom rear center.

5. The true audio potential of better 6.1 quality sound is a function of tweaking listening area acoustics and having source material of quality... particularly as to the mix in HT. To discuss the quality of things in-between (e.g., speakers, subs, electronics, wire, etc.) is misleading if the source material and the listening environment is not properly taken into consideration.

Building a speaker system with these long term strategies in mind can make your cruise on the Upgrade Line a far more insightful and error-free process. And, remember, it is the psychoacoustics of your own mind that really make the difference! Cheers to ya' -HornED

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Photo update soon! -HornEd

This message has been edited by HornEd on 04-20-2002 at 02:09 PM

[Mlstrass]

HornEd,

Interesting and informative post as usual. Have you considered an Infinite Baffle for those (4) 15's?? You would need a HUGE tube/box for those subs, unless going with some of the high-excursion drivers. Then you're talking MASSIVE amounts of power and generally they don't go as low.

I'm seriously considering a second tube to match the one I just completed, but no room in current HT and this one blends well and provides tremendous levels of bass. I'm guessing I'll hit SPL levels over 120 when I do some testing.

I agree that full range horn loaded speakers are the ultimate for HT enjoyment. Knowing the demands placed on a CC is why I decided to build the KLF-10. Eventually when I get a bigger TV a 20 or 30 CC will replace it to even better match the fronts.

No doubt that DIY has the potential for disaster, but if you have the ability great results can be achieved, especially when following a proven design. My sub design came directly from Dan Wiggins, owner of Adire Audio. I still owe him a "thank you" for his help.

I do feel VERY confident that NOTHING for $900 (what I have in my sub) will come close to the output of loud & clean bass that I have.

Time to shake the house.....Mike

[edwardre]

Hey HornEd....WRT your point one, maybe I'm reading this wrong but are you advocating setting the main 5 (FR, FL, C, SR, SL) to small EVEN if they are say...Khorns, Belles and the like which are capable of 'large' operation? It would appear that you go on to say

quote:

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The popular notion that somehow one "loses" by replacing good sound in low frequency by better low frequency sound is more "common error" than common sense.

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which implies to me that you are suggesting that an 'awsome' sub produces 'better' LF sound than a KHorn or a Belle? If so, I would tend to agree in part...certainly you have more command over the intensity and sheer loudness, but I would question clarity and overall "even-ness"(?) of the bass experience. But of greater significance in my mind is that both DTS and DVD-Audio (and perhaps SACD) lack bass management. Would you not be doing yourself a disservice for those formats by setting your 'large' capable speakers to 'small'? I kind of thought that was the whole idea behind having an all 'large format' heritage system, so that you can take advantage of the smooth LF bass these behemoths provide?

Totally agree with the other 4 points you've made and in fact, the sub upgrade is my next task. I am currently using the KSW200. This is an OK sub, but as far as realizing the full potential of my HT, it is 'sub'-par. I purchased it right during the transition from the KSW100,200,300 series to the KSW10,12,15. Initially purchased the KSW12. Took it home and was disappointed. Could not handle the opening heartbeat of Dark Side of the Moon at loud volumes without 'burping'. Took it back and replaced it with the older KSW200. This unit was twice the weight and handled the heartbeat test without flinching. That was then, now I find my system left wanting. I would like to build two myself. I know I could probably surf the sub section, but as has been stated, "far too many people ask the same questions that have been answered already in posts that have been relagated to post oblivion". Keeping in line with the times, I'll ask the following questions: 1. where can I find out more info on these DIY sono-subs? and 2. Ed, what would you personally recommend as a good fit for my setup (Khorns, Belle, CW's) keeping in mind my very constrained budget? Thanks

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Ed

[boa12]

ed, best solution to the large/small quandry as you outline above - a receiver or pre/pro or outboard unti like the outlaw icbm that lets you drop the high pass crossover on those speaks down from 80hz & also the sub

low pass down from 80hz (or whatever high number it's fixed at).

problem is that high fixed crossover because most use the thx specs that go by smallish speaks together w/ a sub. obviously we don't have smallish speaks, hence the conflict.

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My Home Systems Page

[HornEd]

Yep, Edwardre, in my experience ADEQUATE subwoofer(s) do better bottom work than even the might K-horn that rolls off at about 35 Hz. But, there are two important points to remember...

First, an adequate subwoofer for the mighty K-horns and its fellow traveling Belles and LaScalas can be a pretty expensive proposition. IMHO, SVS tubes or a really good DIY Sonotube build provide the kind of clean, quick and resounding bass that Klipsch Heritage deserves.

Second, setting all speakers to "SMALL" usually rolls off the speakers around 80-90 Hz... and while I would be tempted to spend the money for better bass management than that... adequate subwoofer SPL's to reference level (121.5 dB) should blend so well that you don't even realize that the lows are coming from the subs instead of the K-horns... or at least that has been my experience.

To have truly wonderful bass from a horn below about 40 Hz... one has to have a horn load configuration with a much bigger throat and an enormous mouth... even by K-horn standards. Pushing to get every bit of bass out of a K-horn, no matter how marginal the result just doesn't make good acoustics engineering sense IMHO.

The fabulous Krell Lat-1 ($37,500 a pair) rolls off at about where the K-horn does... and its designer (d'Agostino) recommends his silky smooth slammer of a Krell Master Reference Subwoofer to handle the low side.

Coloration from >80Hz artifact tends to denigrate subwoofers that do not have expensive cabinet reinforcement to hold the massive pressures of really deep bass. I suspect that the expense of building a good subwoofer cabinet inside a Main Speaker shell was a factor (in addition to low popularity) for the discontinuance of the KSP-400 and its kin. Watching the bottom line is what keeps us in present and future Klipsch products. By most actual consumer accounts, the KSP's are wonderful!

Since my music room has '97 Khorns, '99 Belle, and '83 CW's... and the fact that I have indeed known poverty in my adult lifetime... gives me some insight into your situation.

The main reason that the Sonotube approach to subwoofers works is that the physics of a cylinder does not allow the movement that the physics of an unbraced cube would. Sonotube cylinders trace their heritage to being inexpensive "cardboard" forms for pouring concrete columns. Endcaps must be particularly strong... with a specialized downfiring woofer in one endcap and tuned ports in the other endcap.

I chose to go SVS because of their high quality build, premium drivers, 50% thicker tubes, and generous return policy. They put the kind of driver in an under $1k product that you would ordinarily find in an over $4k audiophile sub. Sure, I can build a great sounding Sonotube DIY sub... but I believe I would be hard pressed to match the guaranteed build quality for the single unit price I would have to pay for components of equal quality.

That being said, I thought you would like to see what Ron Stimson, the "S" in SVSubwoovers and a big DIY enthusiast, had to say about building your own... http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6_3/diy-11-sonotube-subwoofer-september-99.html Further Internet results can be had by searching on: Sonotube subwoofer kit on a search engine like Google. Building a super sub can be a lot of fun... particularly if you have the tools and the knowledge to use them well.

The secret of a great sub is moving great volumes of air with great precision and free of localization harmonics. A much debated question is whether to go with a quick, long throw, 12" driver or a larger diameter driver that doesn't have to move as far or as fast to move the same volume of air. Both sides have their strong and weak points... so, once again, the answer comes down to your personal ear preference. It would be nice if you could find someone in your area with a tube subwoofer to give you a preview. -HornED

This message has been edited by HornEd on 04-26-2002 at 02:16 AM

[edwardre]

HornEd, thanks for taking the time to explain to a detail level that I could understand. I did go Googling on DIY subs and came to the following conclusion: building my own sub(s) has been pushed out towards the 3 - 5 year plan and it would appear that (relatively) instant gratification can be had for under a G. Certainly that would afford me the luxury of coming up to speed on the mechanics of the sub at a more relaxed pace. I was sufficiently piqued by your comments "IMHO, SVS tubes or a really good DIY Sonotube build provide the kind of clean, quick and resounding bass that Klipsch Heritage deserves." and "adequate subwoofer SPL's to reference level (121.5 dB) should blend so well that you don't even realize that the lows are coming from the subs instead of the K-horns... or at least that has been my experience.", especially since our Khorns/Belle/CWs HT sounds to be very similar with the sub exception. In short....I want mine to do that too!!!!! So I perused the SVS site. Which one is the "BB darling?" Or better yet, which one will make my system behave like you've described? I"ll have to root around for someone who can demo one of these cylinders properly for me. Thanks again.

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Ed