jhvenier Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Ok, I took some punishment from the Audioholics site, I forgot my K.C. password and finally got it back, or I would have posted this here instead. Seems they think the RF-83's impedance may cause the distortion when I crank up the Denon 3805. It seems pretty clear until that last twist of the knob. One thing that did make sense was that the Denon may be petering out due to not having a sub for the bass and the added power consumption to push the bass to the RF-83's. I really was at fiirst under the impression that the Denon could not possibly put out enough to make the RF-83" scream for mercy. That was the first reply, that just because of the ratings of the RF-83's dont mean they sound good at upper levels.....Can anyone give me a hand with this...Sub, amp or what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenM Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Seems they think the RF-83's impedance may cause the distortion when I crank up the Denon 3805. The RF-83 does dip down to 2.8 ohms, which is fairly low, and can cause amplifiers/receivers to act up when pushed. One thing that did make sense was that the Denon may be petering out due to not having a sub for the bass and the added power consumption to push the bass to the RF-83's. A high quality, properly integrated subwoofer can certainly take considerable load off the Denon, as well as the RF-83s, and improve the sound quality of the system overall. I really was at fiirst under the impression that the Denon could not possibly put out enough to make the RF-83" scream for mercy. Not to worry, the RF-83s aren't whats screaming for mercy. Sub, amp or what? Maybe both. How much more clean volume do you need, and how much time and money are you willing to spend to get there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhvenier Posted June 8, 2011 Author Share Posted June 8, 2011 Appreciate the input immensely. I am willing to spend the time and money necessary to have a clean sounding system. I dont have it cranked up all the time but,, I do at times just feel the need when something comes along, like an old Floyd or Zep song has remembering old days...I am sure most know what I am talking about. I am not sure at this point about getting rid of the Denon, adding an amp, buying a new receiver, or amp + processer. One thing for sure, I am going to add a sub but, I really am hoping for additional info. on the other things I am wondering. Can you provide more information, again, it is greatly appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenM Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 I wouldn't get rid of the Denon by any means; it does have outputs to drive an external amplifier if that's what you want to do. Adding a subwoofer would be a good first step, something along the lines of an SVS Ultra or JL Fathom. If you're into DIY, that's always an option too. As mentioned, a good sub (with bass management from your Denon) gives a significant boost to the bottom end and takes a lot of strain off your Denon and RF-83s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluBitRates Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 depending on your cash you do not have to go so extreme on the sub because you are really going to want an amp to drive those rf-83s. I am running 125 wpc (marantz monoblocks) to my rf-7ii in stereo 2.0 right now and it surely gives them an edge over running them off of a receiver. You could find a cheap alternative to the subs mentioned (emotiva sub12 or something comparable) and then buy a $500 2 channel amp (think 150wpc or more). For $1000 all togethor you could have an ultimate music setup. If you really do have the cash for it though get a quality sub. It is kind of rediculous to get a jl fathom and then not have the money for an amp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenM Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 He may want an amplifier after he purchases a subwoofer (or not, who knows), but I wouldn't recommend skimping on the subwoofer at all. I mean, you're recommending he add a $430 12" small sealed subwoofer to speakers that were 5 times more expensive and with considerably more cone area. Thats a pretty big mismatch in my book. The reason I recommended the subs I did is because they have a pretty good shot at keeping up with the RF-83s in quality and quantity. The Emotiva on the other hand is liable to run out of gas before he even gets really going! As far as amps go, the least I'd recommend would be something along the lines of an Emotiva XPA-2. Given that the Denon AVR in question is no slouch by any means, he might as well make a significant upgrade if he's going to plop down the cash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluBitRates Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 a upa-2 would be a significant upgrade if he does in fact turn his receiver up. Why buy a sub only to crank your music and possibly damage your speakers? By the way you are recommending a (cheapest jl fathom msrp $2100 xpa-2 msrp $800) $2900 upgrade minus discounts to my recomendation of ( upa-2 $389 sub-12 on sale for $429) $818 upgrade with a sub discount. Although i have not heard the emotiva i think it would work decent for music at higher volumes if not dialed to 11. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenM Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 a upa-2 would be a significant upgrade if he does in fact turn his receiver up. I'm not so sure about that. The AVR-3805 is no lightweight, and if it's only driving two channels, I'd be willing to wager it would give a good accounting of itself against the UPA-2. In terms of raw power output, he would gain next to nothing in terms of extra headroom. At least with the XPA, he would gain a couple db worth of extra power. Why buy a sub only to crank your music and possibly damage your speakers? Well the theory is that by offloading 80Hz on down to a subwoofer, you are less likely to damage your speakers and amplifier. Although i have not heard the emotiva i think it would work decent for music at higher volumes if not dialed to 11. I could be wrong, but the reason I'm recommending the costlier equipment is because he seems to want to dial it to 11 and maybe to 12 (eat that Spinal Tap). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenM Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 By the way you are recommending a (cheapest jl fathom msrp $2100 Should also note that the Fathom is only one of the subs I recommended. I also suggested the SVS Ultra (1600 in cylinder at the moment) as well as planting the idea of DIY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluBitRates Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Have you heard a good amplifier lately? Because i had a tx-sr705 and thought it was pretty weak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenM Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Have you heard a good amplifier lately? Because i had a tx-sr705 and thought it was pretty weak. Well that depends on what you're trying to drive with the Onkyo. With RF-7s and their nasty impedance swing, I wouldn't expect the best performance. My RF-5s on the other hand only dip down to 4 ohms (as stated by Klipsch's customer support), and given that the 707 I own is designed and tested to be stable down to 4 ohms on the front channels, and is tested to deliver a 12.5 amp peak into said load, I'm reasonably confident that it does just fine. That the low end is taken up by a subwoofer doesn't hurt either. If you asked me if I thought upgrading to a UPA-2 would make any significant difference in my system, I'd say no. It wouldn't give any useful headroom, and since my speakers are within my receiver's ability to drive effectively, it won't help there either. As far as the OP goes, his Denon is of course a different animal than our TX-SR7xx receivers, being a fair bit heavier and costlier, and in a series reasonably well known for good quality. Moreover, the OP isn't complaining that the speakers sound "weak", just that he doesn't have enough clean power. I have a hard time believing that an amplifier rated at 125wpc @ 8 ohms weighing 30 pounds is going to give significantly more clean power than a 38 pound receiver rated for 120wpc @ 8 ohms when driving two channels, even into a reasonably difficult load like the RF-83s. Given that a doubling of power yields a 3dB increase in volume, how much do you think he'll gain with the upgrade? 1-2dB if he's lucky??? Hence my recommendation for a big jump in power if he's so inclined. Of course, I'd still suggest that the subwoofer path is probably a better first step. And for what its worth, yes I've heard "good" amplifiers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluBitRates Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Yeah i used the 3802 for a while with rf-82s and thought it did just fine. With rf-83s though i would want atleast a upa-2. Extremely less likely to clip with a separate amplifier and you can run them for as long as you want without having to check whether the receiver is melting. To me it is pretty much a no brainer that a flagship reference speaker deserves a separate amplifier. I am not saying that you would be blown away or even notice a difference with a upa-2 at lower levels but at higher levels you should notice that effortlessness. The xpa-2 should give you a more dramatic response. Yeah the onkyo is rated to handle a 4 ohm load and it is also rated at 110 wpc at 8 ohm[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhvenier Posted June 10, 2011 Author Share Posted June 10, 2011 Ok I am fathoming all this stuff. I really appreciate all the advice and help, without you guys I would be somewhat lost. One thing I was wondering, are all the subs mentioned a step up from the Klipsch subs or are the Klipsch subs worth while? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluBitRates Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 I would only go klipsch sub if you want to have a matching system. Subs arent sonically matched like say the rf-83 and rc-64 are so you can interchange what brand of sub you get. People find subs like the rw-12d below par musically and for movies. The rt-10d, rt-12d, rsw-12, rsw-15 and a few other klipsch subs are pretty decent. There are alot of budget subs out there that will give you alot of bang for your buck. Look in the sub area of this forum and other forums for more suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenM Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 In the Klipsch lineup, I would add the KW-120 THX subwoofer as being a solid (albeit expensive) choice. As mentioned, there is no particular reason to stay with Klipsch in the subwoofer realm, especially as these days they're tending towards smaller, "spouse friendlier" models. In any case, there is no shortage of people trying to sell large and in charge high quality subwoofers including Hsu Research, SVS, JL Audio, Velodyne, Elemental Designs, Rythmik, etc etc etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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