Home Theater Protection Advice

[bud--]

Let me introduce my troll. He follows me posting nasty replies and outright lies.

My "nasty replies" and "outright lies" come from the IEEE and NIST. Almost everything I post is in the surge guides I linked to. Some is in technical papers from the NIST surge guide author (which are probably still online if anyone wants to read them).

He only joined today because I am here.

Westom googles for "surge" to spread his beliefs about surge protection. One of his goals is to save the universe from the scourge of plug-in protectors. Googling for ["westom" surge] returns over 16,000 hits. There are more under some of his other names like w_tom.

Some of what westom writes is good, some not so good, and some is complete nonsense. Everything he writes about plug-in protectors is complete nonsense.

He is employed to promote power strip protectors. Will post half truths and outright lies to create confusion and anger.

If westom had valid technical arguments he wouldn't have to lie about other people. The only association I have with surge protection is I use some protectors. Anyone can read my sources and find the same "half truths and outright lies".

Then read westom's sources that agree with him that plug-in protectors do NOT work. There are none.

For example, what is UL1449? A safety standard created because so many power strip protectors caused house fires. UL1449 does not define appliance protection as he would have you believe. UL 1449 only tests for threats to human life - ie fire. Did he mention that? Of course not.

To pass UL1449 a protector must survive a series of surges and remain fully functional. (Later in the test a protector may fail safely on some more severe tests that are intended to result in failure.)

And since 1998 UL1449 has required thermal disconnects for overheating MOVs.

bud has also been outright critical of the Brickwall solution. Series mode filters are not products he is paid to promote.

Westom hallucinates a lot. I said almost nothing about Brickwall and the most critical comment was it does not appear to be UL listed.

By the way westom does not think series filters work.

All electronics meet numerous international standards. For example, how low can voltage drop and the electronic still work normally? Incandescent bulbs can dim even to 50% intensity. Electronics must work even at voltages that low. Just one of many international standards that ... did bud claim these standards do not exist? Of course. That standard existed long before the original IBM PC.

Not answered:
What "international design standards" are there for audio/TV equipment?
Who says equipment must meet a standard?

IEEE recommends protectors that are earthed. IEEE discusses many. And demonstrated how a power strip protector can even damage adjacent appliances when a 'whole house' protector is not earthed. Page 42 figure 8. A power strip protector earths a surge 8000 volts destructively through that TV.

Anyone (except westom) can read the example of how plug-in protectors work in the IEEE surge guide and find out that:

- A plug-in protector protects the TV connected to it.
- "Figure 8 shows a very common improper use of multiport protectors..."
- The point of the example is "to protect TV2, a second multiport protector located at TV2 is required."
- In the example a surge comes in on a cable service with the ground wire from cable entry ground block to the ground at the power service that is far too long. In that case the IEEE guide says "the only effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport [plug-in] protector."
- westom's favored power service protector would provide absolutely NO protection.

It is simply a lie that the plug-in protector in the IEEE example damages the second TV.

NIST also says that protectors must be earthed. From Page 17 (Adobe page 19 of 24):

Everyone is in favor of earthing electrical systems.

The question is whether plug-in protectors work.
What does the NIST surge guide really say about plug-in suppressors?
They are "the easiest solution".
And "one effective solution is to have the consumer install" a multiport plug-in suppressor.

The IEEE surge guide explains (starting page 30) that plug-in protectors do not work primarily by earthing a surge.
Repeating:
They work by limiting the voltage from each wire (power and signal) to the ground at the protector. The voltage between the wires going to the protected equipment is safe for the protected equipment.

But any facility that can suffer no damage always earths a 'whole house' protector. Always. Earthing is that critically important.

Westom has an apparently religious belief (immune from challenge) that surge protection must directly use earthing. He is alone in that belief.

Repeating from the NIST surge guide:
"Q – Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be sufficient for the whole house?
A – There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances [electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most homes today have some kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be NO – but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the service entrance is useless."

A service panel protector is very likely to protect anything connected only to power wires. It does not, by itself, limit the voltage between power and signal wires.

Cutler-Hammer versions are sold even in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50.

Still missing - a link to the protector that meets westom's 50,000 surge amp requirement.

For real science read the IEEE and NIST surge guides. Excellent information. And both say plug-in protectors are effective.

[bud--]

Very interesting thread. I too have wondered about how to protect my own as the latter upgrades are starting to get a bit pricey.

My uncle is an master electrician and spent 48 years at one of the larger GM manufacturing plants. He and I spoke on this a couple of times. So for the sake of argument (no I'm not trying to) here are my thoughts.

You can only potentially protect from lightning... a direct strick will blow through almost anything unless you've provided a less resistive path for it which is very hard and expesive to do. So in this case... everything is toast!

Francois Martzloff was the surge expert at the NIST and has written many technical papers on surges and surge protection. One of them (mentioned in my first post) looked at a 100,000A lightning strike to a utility pole next to a house in typical urban overhead distribution. Only 5% of lightning strikes are stronger, and you can't get much closer, so this is for practical purposes a worst case event. He found there was 10,000A heading for the house on each of the neutral and the 2 hot wires. The neutral is bonded to the system ground at the service and both are connected to the earthing system which dumps the neutral surge to earth. Service panel protectors with far higher ratings than 10,000A are readily available. A service panel protector results in a manageable surge voltage on inside power wiring. (There are some exceptions, such as a pad mounded A/C compressor/condenser - see the IEEE surge guide.)

The result is 30,000A going to the earthing system. Even if you has an extremely good 5 ohms to earth resistance, the house 'ground' will rise to 150,000V above 'absolute' earth potential. Much of the protection is that all wiring in the house (phone, cable, ...) rises together. That requires a good "single point ground", discussed in the IEEE surge guide.

A direct strike to the building requires lightning rods (now called air terminals).

If the lightning is down the road a piece and is traveling down the lines... you "may" be able to protect some... but if its a strong hit and your close enough it likely will still do damage. Think about your wiring.... I've wired several buildings... yes the common and your "ground" (which are essencially the same since most service panel bridge them). But if your lightning surge comes through on your hot side.... it can't get to ground unless it goes through your [name your appliance here]. You can divert some to ground before your equipment through diversion to ground protection devices up to a point... but if its close enough I doubt the conductors that carry to ground are anywhere near big enough to take it all (most of it is only 12 wire... I won't use 14!)... its still going through your appliance.... either direct before the unit can react or its just too hot for its capacity and blows on through. If its on the common conductor coming in... part will go to ground... but on lightning it can still back feed through to the hot line (throughyour applicance) as its potential (or "pressure" if you will) is much greater than the power company's pressure. Its still likely damaged. Actually, its probable that its coming in through on all three conductors, i.e both115 feeds and the common/ground. Like the man said, three miles of air didn't stop it... and it didn't have conductors to follow up there. Its all potenical than built up seeking a ground. No different that the static spark you get from the cat or the door knob... but about a couple cagillion orders of magnitude bigger (nice scientific term here, I know!).

Another Martzloff paper (also mentioned in my first post) looked at the energy that can be absorbed in the MOVs in a plug-in protector. He used branch circuits 10m and longer and a surge on the incoming power wire of 10,000A - as above the maximum that has any reasonable probability of occurring. The maximum energy dissipated in the plug-in suppressor was a surprisingly small 35 Joules. In 13 of 15 cases it was 1 Joule or less.

There are 2 reasons the energy is so small. One is that at about 6,000V there is arc-over from the service panel busbars to the enclosure. After the arc is established the voltage is hundreds of volts. Since the enclosure/ground/neutral are connected to the earthing system that dumps most of the incoming surge energy to earth.

The second reason is the impedance of the branch circuit wiring. A surge is a very short event. That means the current elements are relatively high frequency. That means the wire inductance (which we usually ignore) is more important than the resistance. The branch circuit impedance greatly limits the current to the MOVs, which greatly limits the energy that can make it to the MOVs. Plug-in protectors with ratings much higher than 35 joules are readily available. A plug-in protector with high ratings wired correctly is very likely to protect against a very near very strong lightning strike.

Plug-in protectors do not protect by earthing a surge. Read the IEEE surge guide starting page 30. The work by limiting the voltage from each wire (power and signal) to the ground at the protector.

Arc-over at the panel would certainly also benefit a Brickwall (and every other device in the house). Branch circuit impedance may also benefit a Brickwall - I haven't looked closely at how they are supposed to operate.

Now simple surges from the power company or double voltages etc due to someone hitting a pole or somthing... can be partially controlled. I've often wondered about daisy chaining the clipper type surge protectors... what one doesn't clip... maybe the next in line will? Whats your thoughs on this?

Get a protector with high enough ratings by itself. They are available with rating well over a thousand joules.

Manufacturers, and UL, will tell you not to daisy chain protectors. (UL also does not want you to daisy chain ordinary plug- strips.)

Martzloff has written "In fact, the major cause of [surge protector] failures is a temporary overvoltage, rather than an unusually large surge." A surge is, by definition, a very short event. Temporary overvoltage is much longer, and could be your hitting a power pole, or a distribution wire dropping onto the wires that feed your house. The MOVs that are in almost all surge protectors can handle thousands of amps for the very short duration of a surge. They will very rapidly burnout with the much longer temporary overvoltage. A UPS may disconnect successfully.

[Beechnut]

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[ajoker2c]

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+1

[hotsho111]

Unsubscribed...

Ya, kinda sad.

Before this thread becomes completely useless would the brickwall be enough or is it worth it to get the h15?

[Panacea Engineering]

Next time any of you cut your grass, walk by your electrical meter location and look for the bare copper wire that goes down and ties to the Ground Rod for your Electrical Service. By code, it is supposed to be readily accessible and not covered by dirt. If it is, get a small spade and uncover the connection, to the top of the ground rod. This is the most important electrical connection in your complete electrical system. You will probably also see where the Phone and Cable Companies have attached to this same wire. As long as the connections are intact with NO physical damage, you are as good to go as you can get. In a DIRECT strike, this is where it is going to go to ground/Earth. Everything past this point is Fluff...plain and simple. Every electrical pole in an overhead distribution system is grounded to Earth. So, unless you get a direct hit, or it hits between the Pole/Underground Transformer and your house, you are relatively safe.

The discussions here about 10,000 amps, this and that (these amp ratings are symmetrical, BTW) and higher, relate to Fault Current in a direct short situation and there is nothing, other than the rating of your service equipment (Panel, Breakers, etc.) that will limit that any further. This is where there is potential to do physical damage, either by destruction or fire, or both, to a structure. As several posters have already mentioned, most, if not all electronic components are Internally Self Protected and there is nothing that you can add that will do any better. As I have mentioned before, who has or knows of someone that has lost a piece of electronic equipment due to any of the above conditions? The 100K dollar warranties, that these guys offer is a pure joke and you must read the FINE print of ANY warranty, NOT just about surges, spikes, brown outs or storms. Most if not all have the act of God clause in there somewhere. A True UPS that completely isolates Line from Load is another animal completely and you probably could not afford to have it installed.

Taking a quick walk and being observant, around your house is probably one of the most cost effective measures you can take, to be sure that you are protected. A lightning arrester (available from the Depot and Lowes, mentioned above) is a worthwhile investment, if you are in a higher than normal lightning strike location. it could possibly save you some damage cost to the electrical system in the event of a direct strike, whichis relatively rare.

[westom]

would the brickwall be enough or is it worth it to get the h15?

If it was, then someone can post spec numbers from Brickwall, et al that claim that protection. Numbers for the Brickwall define tiny transients. Also called noise. And then a green wire also bypassed any suspected protection. A Brickwall is a series mode filter. Great for noise reduction. And does nothing for the typically destructive surge. As was posted previously with numbers.

As every major professional organization (including the IEEE and NIST) says, either a surge is connected to earth before entering the building. Or the protector is ... what did the NIST call a protector adjacent to electronics? Useless.

Martzloff says an adjacent (point of connection protector can even make appliance damage easier. But then Martzloff is only saying what we have demonstrated for generations: From Martzloff’s 1994 IEEE paper:

Conclusion: 1) Quantitative measurements in the Upside-Down house clearly show objectionable difference in reference voltages. These occur even when or perhaps because, surge protective devices are present at the point of connection of appliances.

Martzloff says why the Brickwall or H15 does not even claim protection.

Defined was a superior solution that also costs tens or 100 times less money than Brickwalls or H15s. Already defined was the only solution used in every facility that must suffer even direct lightning and no damage

Any wire that enters a building must first make a low impedance (ie ‘less than 10 foot’) connection to single point earth ground. Best protection for cable TV and satellite dish is a direct connection – no protector needed. Telephone and AC electric must use a ‘whole house’ protector to make that connection. Connection to what? Protection. Earth ground is where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Then damage is averted. As was well understood even 100 years ago. No way around over 100 years of well proven science that every major professional organization recommends. Neither the Brickwall nor H15 claim to or can do that well proven solution.

[bud--]

If it was, then someone can post spec numbers from Brickwall, et al that claim that protection. Numbers for the Brickwall define tiny transients. Also called noise.

Of course grimmreapersound did post specs.
Thousands of volts are noise?

As every major professional organization (including the IEEE and NIST) says, either a surge is connected to earth before entering the building. Or the protector is ... what did the NIST call a protector adjacent to electronics? Useless.

Nonsense

Repeating what the NIST surge guide really says about plug-in suppressors:
They are "the easiest solution".
And "one effective solution is to have the consumer install" a multiport plug-in suppressor.

The IEEE surge guide also says they are effective. The only 2 detailed examples of protection both use plug-in protectors.

Martzloff says an adjacent (point of connection protector can even make appliance damage easier. But then Martzloff is only saying what we have demonstrated for generations: From Martzloff’s 1994 IEEE paper:

Westom forgets to mention that Martzloff said in the same document:
"Mitigation of the threat can take many forms. One solution. illustrated in this paper, is the insertion of a properly designed [multiport plug-in surge protector]."

Multiport protectors allow you to wire phone and cable wires through the protector. They protect from high voltage between power and signal wires.

At the time of the paper, 1994, multiport surge protectors were just a concept or very new. The point of the paper was that multiport plug-in protectors are effective for protecting equipment with phone and cable connections in addition to power.

In 2001 Martzloff wrote the NIST guide which also says plug-in suppressors are effective.

Martzloff says why the Brickwall or H15 does not even claim protection.

It is another of westom's hallucinations.

Any wire that enters a building must first make a low impedance (ie ‘less than 10 foot’) connection to single point earth ground. Best protection for cable TV and satellite dish is a direct connection – no protector needed.

A "single point ground", with short ground wires from cable and entry protectors to a common connection point, is actually an important piece of surge protection. It is covered in the IEEE surge guide.

No protector needed for cable? The IEEE guide says “there is no requirement to limit the voltage developed between the core and the sheath. .... The only voltage limit is the breakdown of the F connectors, typically ~2–4 kV.” And "there is obviously the possibility of damage to TV tuners and cable modems from the very high voltages that can be developed, especially from nearby lightning."

For real science read the IEEE and NIST surge guides. Excellent information on protection from surges. And both say plug-in protectors are effective.

[ajoker2c]

If it was, then someone can post spec numbers from Brickwall, et al that claim that protection. Numbers for the Brickwall define tiny transients. Also called noise.

Of course grimmreapersound did post specs.
Thousands of volts are noise?

As every major professional organization (including the IEEE and NIST) says, either a surge is connected to earth before entering the building. Or the protector is ... what did the NIST call a protector adjacent to electronics? Useless.

Nonsense

Repeating what the NIST surge guide really says about plug-in suppressors:
They are "the easiest solution".
And "one effective solution is to have the consumer install" a multiport plug-in suppressor.

The IEEE surge guide also says they are effective. The only 2 detailed examples of protection both use plug-in protectors.

Martzloff says an adjacent (point of connection protector can even make appliance damage easier. But then Martzloff is only saying what we have demonstrated for generations: From Martzloff’s 1994 IEEE paper:

Westom forgets to mention that Martzloff said in the same document:
"Mitigation of the threat can take many forms. One solution. illustrated in this paper, is the insertion of a properly designed [multiport plug-in surge protector]."

Multiport protectors allow you to wire phone and cable wires through the protector. They protect from high voltage between power and signal wires.

At the time of the paper, 1994, multiport surge protectors were just a concept or very new. The point of the paper was that multiport plug-in protectors are effective for protecting equipment with phone and cable connections in addition to power.

In 2001 Martzloff wrote the NIST guide which also says plug-in suppressors are effective.

Martzloff says why the Brickwall or H15 does not even claim protection.

It is another of westom's hallucinations.

Any wire that enters a building must first make a low impedance (ie ‘less than 10 foot’) connection to single point earth ground. Best protection for cable TV and satellite dish is a direct connection – no protector needed.

A "single point ground", with short ground wires from cable and entry protectors to a common connection point, is actually an important piece of surge protection. It is covered in the IEEE surge guide.

No protector needed for cable? The IEEE guide says “there is no requirement to limit the voltage developed between the core and the sheath. .... The only voltage limit is the breakdown of the F connectors, typically ~2–4 kV.” And "there is obviously the possibility of damage to TV tuners and cable modems from the very high voltages that can be developed, especially from nearby lightning."

For real science read the IEEE and NIST surge guides. Excellent information on protection from surges. And both say plug-in protectors are effective.

You two are adorable !

[dem45133]

Well, not to start any new wars, but I am going to read more on the IEEE guides. I'll likely incorporate a whole house protector at the feed/service panel and also look more in to end point protection as well. Since this old 107 year old house has the original leaded seam metal roof and aluminum siding not sure what I want to do for "air terminals". There is a big old 80 year old walnut 70 ft high and about 40 ft from the house thats been hit by lightning several times (surpringly its still alive). We're up on a ridge. I'll let it draw it for a while yet I think. There was a electric fencer feed that came from a small outbuilding to feed an e-fence and was hung from the tree... it followed that in and blew up the fencer unit into pieces and also clear off the wall... traveled through to the doublepole 50 amp that altimately feeds the shop that that small building is wired from...(which is using an older 100 amp service panel that is also rod grounded... just feed from our main 200 amp via the 50, that ground took the majority of it, our main service ground took the rest) killed one computer... because we were not home and forgot to unplug it as we normally do... next to that tree is a 50 ft antenea tower that fed the TV for a while, but it seems to have escaped. The man we bought the property from 15 years ago who owned it for the prior 28 years... says that tree has been hit a bunch of times. It split it about mid way down in a part of the trunk thats at least 24 inches thick for a few feet...blew the bark off there even a few years ago.... Down in the woods... we had a strke litterally blow up a 80 foot red oak... quartered it almost as good as the saw mill could have... and each quarter fell in its respective direction.

NO... I'll protect from distance strikes and various power spikes surges and influxes into the system... but a direct, or close strike is a crap shoot. The grounds may handle it... may not. When it struck my neighbors (about 1200 ft from here) dist pole with his transformer on it... it burnt the pole's ground clean off... just like bowing a fuse and its a 1/4 or 5/16s thick solid copper ground. Burned off his service panel's rod ground too... Took out every peice of electrical anything in his house... lucky his place didn't burn. Took out another computer here.

have fun you all... and play nice.

Dave

[Panacea Engineering]

Dave,

You definitely should look into a Lightning Arrestor for your main Service Panel. It is NOT that expensive and will give you added security over your Earth Grounded Service and the Oak tree. It will attach between the service conductors and the ground wire in yor service panel. Yes.....Keep the Oak as it clearly has served you well, in the past.

[westom]

There is a big old 80 year old walnut 70 ft high and about 40 ft from the house thats been hit by lightning several times (surpringly its still alive).

And that is what most often happens. Well over 95% of all trees stuck by lightning have no appreciate indication. As was bluntly define some generations ago in US Forestry Service research.

Another interesting observation: pine trees tend to be excellent lightning protection if the capillary tubes inside the tree grew without twisting around the tree. That was a rather interesting and unconfirmed observation. But is consistent with another fact.

Homes are less likely struck on it the roof or chimney. Most surges enter because lightning strikes AC wires or water pipes far down the street. Whereas a lightning rod (properly earthed) would provide building protection. Earth every incoming wire (either directly or via a 'whole house' protector) is what protects appliances inside the building.

Above posts only discussed secondary protection. Properly earthing a 'whole house' protector is secondary protection. Homeowners should also inspect their primary surge protection. More facts not discussed in adveritsing and when selling scam plug-in protectors. Every layer of protection is defined only by the layer's single point earth ground. Pictures demonstrate what every homeowner should inspect to confirm his primary surge protection also exists: http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

Protection is only defined by and is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate. What defines the primary surge protection layer? Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Earth ground. All homeowners (especially in an economy where people steel copper) should also inspect their primary surge protection layer. That picture demonstrates what defines all protection.