klipshcom Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Hello everyone, I'm back again after after getting all the good advice on speakers. I eneded up with the RF63s RB51's (Front High) and RS51's and the 110 sub, Anyway, These are all being driven by the Onkyo 609. A Friend who also enjoys the sound of klipsh and has the RF5.s says that Im not getting enough powere to these speakers. He has a 200 watt carver i think he said, when i asked what kind to get he wasnt very helpful but said theres no substitute for weight, its got to be heavy!!! i know he only uses his for a 2 speaker stereo setup (music only) where as I have the 7.1 setup. So I go online to find me a 7 channel amp with 2-300 watts...HOLY CRAP $4000 + dollars for the "heavy ones", Now I know my vast knowlege of amps may intimidate some of you but im looking for someone who can tell me what i need for the setup i have, I do not (can not) spend more money for an amp that cost more than my whole setup combined so i realise that a bit of sacrifice will be in order, With money being a factor, is what i can buy 5-6 hundred even worth it? and at that price range i have been unable to find anything that says 7 channel. If i buy a 2 channel then that will only drive the 63's which will overpower the rest of the speakers (right?)Can someone please educate this AMP illiterate? Thanks a Bunch!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 You could do an xpa-5 for around 750 used or sometimes cheaper. It will be perfect. I have same speakers and amp. I also found a local one for 500 for a friend amd it came with 150$ RCA cables too. Look for used emotivas. They are the best bang for the buck and are great with klipsch speakers. You maybe could find also a used upa-5. Not the 500 just the 5. Also emotiva. It's 125x5. Xpa-5 is 200x5. Either way your buddy is right an amp will change the 63's for sure. Not sure what center you have. If you have the 62 or 64 you could just use the xpa-3 and drive the front three. You will love that. Plus it's cheaper than a 5 channel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klipshcom Posted August 24, 2012 Author Share Posted August 24, 2012 center speaker is a KV2 from my old system (its all thats left) I was told to get the RC64 but it seems really big...where as the KV2 fits nicely where it is. Is there really that BIG of a differance.... Im gonna go look for an xpa 5 now, Thanks for the input Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANGERDAN Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Im no expert but i have had my fair time with research and practice, more power doesn't really mean better and that goes especially for klipsch as they are super efficient speakers and require so little power to run. But there is such a thing as quality power as speakers are not like devices or machines which require a certain amount of power to funciton and that's the difference. Currently i am running a 80 watt Marantz and the speakers roar at 20 percent of the full volume capable from the amp, now the amp only provides what the speakers need and just because the amp is 80 watts does not mean its feeding that 24/7. Realistically depending on what you are playing at the time and how loud it is, it is dynamically changing all the time but i am probably only feeding the speakers 20 watts or so. Now if i were to redesign the same amp with the same architecture but just increase the power supply to make the amp capable of 200 watts per channel it will more than likely do nothing, there will probably be less distortion and THD because the amount of stress has been reduced and the amp manages to produce the same power as before but much more easily. BUT STILL same power being fed and no real increase in audio quality. (debatable). Rant over. So it brings me to what does. Easiest way without knowing too much if a amp is good quality is by weight but its not the only factor in the equation. With receivers i am not a big fan if you are wanting the best quality as most are class D's and on the top of my head i don't know any that do them in class A/B, there is nothing wrong class D's but only if they are done right and generally that requires a more complex design to reach adequate levels. Class A/B are linear architecture which processes the signal in a more pure form rather than class D where there is some type of digital processing PWM (pulse Width Modulation) but they are not digital which i think some mistake for. Any way if you want better quality then you must look at amps that are quality in design, things like discrete components and fully differential design, High current output, Damping factor and much more. With receivers they are good if your after something to power home theatre (multiple speakers) which is mostly dedicated for Movies rather than Music as the multi channel experience will probably give you more bang for buck than looking for something to boost the quality of the audio. Now looking at these types of amps will be expensive so looking for receivers is usually the best option for people who don't intend to spend big money and this is ok so long as you know what i have said about the differences. Now like i said i don't dislike class D's i just prefer not to if i don't have too but there are nice receivers out there where they don't hold back on quality and produce some nice sound, now i have heard a few rcvrs before and this is my experience with them and my klipsch speakers but take this with a grain of salt as there are plenty of new and different amps from these brands which may have been improved from ones that i have heard before. Iv heard a couple of Denon amps, Dull sound with no real power to the outputs but classy. Yamaha have always been harsh with my speakers and i am sure i have seen others with the the same opinion and never really match well with klipsch. Onkyo have always been nice with my speakers and i always hear great things about them with not just klipsch but other branded speakers. Marantz have been my choice of receivers as they seem to use better quality components and design but tend to be a little expensive for some. I have not heard any others so cannot provide any more information than that, i hope i helped and i know its long but i was bored. Please remember again grain of salt, people always make mistakes especially with audio because of its complexity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANGERDAN Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 On top of that i agree with scrappys post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klipshcom Posted August 24, 2012 Author Share Posted August 24, 2012 not sure what your point is dan? do i need a better reciever instead....i just bought this 609. My system does distort the sound at relatively lower volume,anything above THX 82 thought thats why i needed an amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANGERDAN Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 All i meant was that more power does not necessarily mean better, so if your system is distorting then yes you would need more power. Make sure you don't mistake clipping for noise too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 hate to burst your bubble but from what i see the 609 has no pre outs except for the sub. how long have you had the receiver? is it possible to return it and upgrade to the 709 which is the first model with preouts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klipshcom Posted August 24, 2012 Author Share Posted August 24, 2012 Oh Nooooo, your right!!!! sh**!!! what about the Zone 2 preamp outputs, does that help? Dammit!!! =....( forgrt it, looked it up and nope, Thanks for bursting my bubble anyway, you just saved me from buying a 70 pound paper weight!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 and your center vs the rc-64.....that is a no contest. first lets go with the not so big of differences...hz range. 75 vs 62...no biggie year built 93-97 vs 06-2010. once again who cares?? now lets go over the big differences....drivers 2 5.25" vs 4 6.5"..huge difference....TWEETERS... 1" POLYMER compression driver vs 1.25" Titatnium Driver....Huge Difference..... Sensitivity..92db vs 99 db...HUGE difference...Power handling... 75 vs 200....huge difference... WEIGHT 13lbs vs 61 LBS...HUGE difference and roughly twice as wide with not much added height little deeper as well. see where i am going with this..?? this center will change your experience a huge amount vs what you have now....at least on paper. but i have never heard your center so hey might not be that different. but it looks to be that way. are your 63's cherry or black? cherry is a little easier to find seems like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 zone 2 won't help you my friend. i am sorry you got sent in the wrong direction without thinking into the future, it happens. everyone here has done it i promise. i recently got my friend an onkyo and i told him to go for the 709 vs the 609 for the bi amp capability since he didnt want to do external amps, but luckily his had the pre outs anyways. but he is already experiencing the crappy hdmi board issues that alot of folks seem to be having with the XXX8 and XXX9 series AVR's. i want another receiver for my living room but i am scared to death to buy one right now cause it seems like everyone's quality control departments is garbage right now....sad sad world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANGERDAN Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 The zone 2 pre outs only work with analogue signals and when digital is present apparently it does not work at all, also would you not need multiple pre out's if you want to run 5.1/7.1 discrete channels for movies and such or are you wanting 2 channel across all speakers for music ?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klipshcom Posted August 24, 2012 Author Share Posted August 24, 2012 the 63's are black, bought from local dealer where i purchased everything else (except center) for 680 pr, U guys all said to buy em!! so i did.If there was a problem with my reciever I know he would stand by it, but i dont think ignorance counts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 yeah if he is ever wanting to add an amp he will have to move to a different receiver. or he could do a used umc-1 and maybe get a couple hundred bucks out of your current AVR. but if you do that you WILL HAVE to have an amp for sure. but if you step into seperates you will notice your self in a whole new world for sure!! as your title states...IT NEVER ENDS!!!! thank your friend..LOL i know i have a few friends wives that dislike me very much for their husbands obsession...LOL. I'm over it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 you say it distorts? i didn't quite get your statement: "above thx"?? you mean when you turn it way up loud it starts to distort? i mean that amp doesn't have the beefiest power section but it shouldn't be that bad.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klipshcom Posted August 24, 2012 Author Share Posted August 24, 2012 yes, when the neighbors go away and i begin to play the sound is loud and clear at the (reciever says) THX referance, when i get there, anything beyond that the sound quality quickly drops off and gets all crappy so i have to turn down volume. Not getting an amp is not the end of the world for me as it is still a nice system but when when you hear that it could be so much better with an amp......well, you get the idea Also, Im not sure if this makes a differance but the audessy auto setup has set my mains at -7 db, should i turn that up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 I'm not sure what that thx reference means. I have an onkyo and have never seen it. Does you volume turn from zero up? Or does it start at -80db and turn up to 0? You should run audussey and leave it. It is setting your levels so when you are at reference level they "should" all be equal. I can barely stay in the room if I turn mine up to 0db. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANGERDAN Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 I am not familiar with audyssey eq's, could you post the model of what you have ?. If you are referring to the SPL level matching settings within the amp then increasing this will most likely not help because if it is indeed clipping/distortion then it will still distort at the same sound pressure output with it just showing a higher number on the volume indicator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klipshcom Posted August 25, 2012 Author Share Posted August 25, 2012 ok here goes...its an onkyo 609. the volume goes from 0-100 being max, at exactly 82 the THX red light on reciever lights up and the volume display on the reciever and tv says REF. to which the sound quality at much more than that point goes to shit. Its still pleasantly loud but if i ever wanted to show off beyond that point it would be a bit embarrassing. I know these speakers can handle much more than there getting. My friend with the RF5's go much MUCH louder than mine but i assume its because he has the 200 watt amp and is only driving the 2 speakers where i have 7.1!!!! also since were on the subject, when i heard his speakers i asked where his sub was.....he didnt have one. The 5's thump a hell of alot more than mine and i have the sub goin. Gotta be the amp right? PS Im not really bichin, they still sound nice and apparently it doesnt matter cause without buying a new reciever AND an amp its not going to get any better. The audessy is simply built into the reciever, plug in the mic and it calibrates. i was just remarking that it has the 2 fronts at -7, makes sense what you what you said ,,doesnt matter where it is set, speaker distorts at the same volume, i get it!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANGERDAN Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 This is debatable but yes his amp is more than likely the reason for increased bass response, this is because his amp is most likely high current which is really good for when low impedance dips hit at low frequency's. Low frequencies require more power and a amp that can handle low impedance otherwise you will get dampened response like what you experience, this is the same experience i had faced with a lot of receivers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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