AndyKubicki Posted August 23, 2002 Share Posted August 23, 2002 To those who have compared Scotts, Dynacos, and Eicos, are there big differences between these? Seems like the Eicos are going for a bit less on Ebay, but it's hard to say, and especially with differing models. Bass response is important to me. Do any of these have better or worse bass response? Which have the best transformers, and is this an important concern? What should I stay away from? Are there any web sites or books so I can research this? ------------------ Andy 78 Khorns (20' apart!) Audire Difet 3 Preamp Adcom GFA 535 II NAD 4130 Tuner Marantz CD 63SE Pioneer DV 434s>c> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 23, 2002 Share Posted August 23, 2002 Is is ugly? Some think so. Other vintage options? Certainly. But I have heard quite a few tube amps of various pedigree including some world class amps, both commercial and DIY...and I still think this is one of the best sounding amps around for the ducats. When dialed in, this integrated is greater than the simple sum of its parts. A few have been getting the Scott 299 lately. Great amp. Take note, however, that most of the loons that opted for the EICO HF-81 are not even posting here anymore. They are too busy listening to music. Chris Robinson sold his $1200 Cary/AES Super Amp in favor of his 40 year old EICO HF-81. Others have followed suit. I will never sell my original EICO (I now have two). Here are some interesting comments that are par for the course from typical new owner, this taken from a recent post in another forum on tube amps. Note his comparisons with Scott, Fisher, and Dynaco and reaction: quote: I replaced all filter caps with standard grade Mallory TC series caps. I replaced the .1 coupling caps (only four of them) with Angela (Jensen) paper/oil caps. Almost all of the original resistors read within 10% or better, so the only ones I changed were the 2W power supply resistors. Cathode bypass electrolytics were replaced with what I had at hand (Spragues for the 25mFds, Nichikon for the 10mFds, Mallories for the 47mFds). Cleaned up the pots and sockets and fired her up. My jaw hit the floor. What an unbelievably great sounding amp this ugly little piece is. I'm running it into a pair of Spendor BC-1s. I also own and like a Scott 222 and 299, as well as a Fisher X-100, all of which have a similar tube compliment. They can't touch the Eico with a ten foot pole! Then I compared it to what I thought would be the next step up in quality, a Dynaco PAS3/ST70 combo with Triode board. The Eico slaughtered it so bad, it was sad. What in the world makes this thing sound so good? The output transformers are tiny compared to other EL84 amps, yet the Eico has more defined bottom end than the others combined. Huh? Maybe my ear isn't refined enough to recognize "true" high end sound, maybe you veterans here will tell me the Eico is "euphonic", "colors the sound", whatever. For sheer listening pleasure, I haven't heard better, period. March 2002 I have heard the same basic comments so many times, I have come to expect it. A few in here dont think as highly of the little amp. I understand their skepticism. Hell, I felt the same and tended to like EL-34 over EL-84. Also, as in anything vintage, if it's not right, it doesnt reach the magic. But when right, I think it is one of the best units I have heard. It just achieves that magical synergy that certain components have that define them as classics. Sure there are other great vintage units, but my pick is the little ugly duckling that can look pretty damn sharp with sound that belies its modest looks. kh Info and links on EICO HF-81: http://home.earthlink.net/~eico_hf81/ Phono Linn Sondek LP-12 Valhalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover Links system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 08-23-2002 at 11:38 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted August 24, 2002 Author Share Posted August 24, 2002 Thanks Kelly, As you were posting this, I have been looking at your Eico material and some links...lots of cool info here. I really wonder what that HF-85 preamp would have sounded like that I missed by seconds on Ebay... ------------------ Andy 78 Khorns (20' apart!) Audire Difet 3 Preamp Adcom GFA 535 II NAD 4130 Tuner Marantz CD 63SE Pioneer DV 434s>c> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted August 24, 2002 Share Posted August 24, 2002 Andy, I would like to agree with mobile's post about the EICO HF-81. They will appear for sale on ebay and other used gear sites in various states of repair, dis-repair, well cared for, or updated. You can find other favorable testimony for the HF-81 on Audio Review. I purchased a HF-81 based on Kelly's rec. and other posting I found on the net. He was right on the money. My jaw dropped the first time I connected it to my Belles and I have no intention of ever selling it. Patience to find a good one could be very worthwhile. Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted August 24, 2002 Share Posted August 24, 2002 Listen to some Fishers. I've a couple of SA-100s and a 80 AZ and they sound very nice. Very high build quality. Fisher tube receivers sound nice too and are easily found. www.chicagohornspeakerclub.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted August 24, 2002 Share Posted August 24, 2002 At this point, I have had very positive experience with a stock Dynaco ST-70 and even moreso with Eico HF-35 monoblocks in conjunction with a stock Dynaco Pas 3 preamp and Klipsch Cornwalls. I also bought an Eico HF-81 but still have not sorted out the bad wiring that it came with, and being an integrated it is more complicated to sort out the problems. I have the schematic. Hopefully I will put it straight this winter when I have time, but as is, with the (unlucky) problems it came with (although sold unscrupulously as an excellent specimen through the eBay crapshoot) I have not yet been able to experience it positively. On the oscilloscope and to the ears, the Eico HF-35 has been the best for me so far. Others agree, check out the Eico homepage. Eventually I plan to either modify or upgrade these vintage units, working toward a tri-amped cutsom Altec speaker system and higher level tube preamp choice. Having lots of actual comparative experience and tweaking experience seems like a good way to go in order to better find out just what one personally likes (starting from a blank slate), as opposed to trying to fit the extensive world of verbal reviews to one's anticipated preferences. There can be a certain joy to the creative discovery process. And you can always sell what you don't want anymore on eBay. Then again, the verbal review, can perhaps also be a starting point in order to help jump into the fray with an approximate target. There is an awfully big selection out there and it can be challenging to figure out how to jump in, and within one's budget. I got the Cornwalls based on recommendations first and then confirmed the decision with autauditing. Later I heard how spectacular an Altec system could sound. Both are good. It takes time to really decide what one's ears really warm up to. I believe in flexibility. I am currently excited about building an Altec speaker system, but still enjoy the Cornwalls which will eventually be used and enjoyed in another space, who knows, maybe oneday powered by a good Eico HF-81, SET, and/or a Fisher 800C, I will keep the possibilities open for autauditing. Almost all of the suggestions on these boards are good ones because all are basically affordable (bargains at one level or another) compared to walking into a high-end store and then contemplating mortgaging ones life to own some really exotic and truly expensive stuff. If an Eico HF-81 or a vintage Fisher {many here also rave about their Fisher 500C or 800C receivers which they will never part with}, Scott, other Eico, Dynaco, or even Heathkit vintage bargain might do it, then one is way ahead of the game and is having fun as well along the way and perhaps enjoying the idea of "beating" the system. Then there is also the challenge of the contrarian adventure, in which, one takes an amp that some others dismiss (eg. Heathkit W-5M, usually a bargain with big iron) , and then find a way to make it really work for you. The above mentioned Dyanco-70 is currently undergoing a highly experimental modification mentioned in another thread and eventually will figure in the tri-amp system I am experimenting with. Other vintage tube amps generally available which I understand have potential for upgrading or modifications are the Dynaco Mark III, the Heathkit W-5M, Eico HF-22 and many others. These are all Push Pull output designs, but are still bargains IMO as starting points for a system. Among other possible routes, prepackaged mods and/or upgrades are available online from several sources for most of these units. Ebay, by the way, has never to my knowledge had a moment when there was not a Dynaco-70 of one kind or another in its listings. I have not yet ventured into the SET world, but might fool around with it at some point for the experience. I would probably opt to build something when my skills have been honed a bit more under the tutelage of mdeneen. One thing I have learned is that the step by step hands-on involvement approach really enhances this hobby and elevates it a bit from merely being a "shopping" hobby. After awhile, hopefully, you start thinking like an electron and on any particular day know better what they are biting on. Here is a necessary neologism: "Autaudit" definition: "the act of hearing with one's own ears" -C&S ------------------ Cornwalls currently upgrading to all tube components This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 08-24-2002 at 12:41 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted August 24, 2002 Share Posted August 24, 2002 C&S quote: After awhile you start thinking like an electron and on any particular day know better what they are biting on. I'm beginning to worry about you! Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted August 24, 2002 Share Posted August 24, 2002 jazman, "A River Runs Through It"........ {I just got back from a good gig.....everything clicked} -C&S ------------------ Cornwalls currently upgrading to all tube components This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 08-24-2002 at 03:06 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted August 24, 2002 Share Posted August 24, 2002 Tom, I noticed on your site, that your bi-amped system utilizes passive networks. What are your thoughts regarding the passives versus an active crossover between the preamp and amp? -C&S ------------------ Cornwalls currently upgrading to all tube components Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted August 24, 2002 Share Posted August 24, 2002 Clipped---I like the passives, very smooth integration. They're 1st order and my active was 3rd order. In any case Kurt brought them by the house and we put them in. My DOD has sat on the shelf ever since. Kurt is now making me some 500hz networks since I'm back to using 511Bs instead of the Edgar saladbowls, the current networks being 800hz. Actives are nice though, every DIY horny needs an active so he easily play with crossover points and balance levels when experimenting with various horns and drivers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 24, 2002 Share Posted August 24, 2002 I would think the passives would work better as well, this over more circuitry and partz. I just heard the Lamhorn with the AER Mk 1 drivers which dont have any crossovers. While this is not a horn driver, it is horn loaded. I was really impressed with the dynamics and immediacy of the sound ala horn. The big Lamhorn sure does a lot better than any of the other little attempts. Simplicity really does have its merits although I know ole Tom is not totally sold on that idea. There are many exceptions. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted August 24, 2002 Share Posted August 24, 2002 AndyKub I have heard and restored so far many Scott intergrates and a few other brands. I have also restore a few for board members. I believe they are extremely happy with them. I find it hard to believe but not impossible that the HF-81 can sound better. I've yet to hear one ! The biggest problem with HF-81's is for the most part they were Kit Amps so the Talent of the original builder comes into play and something you should consider. If you would like some more Opinions I suggest you post this same Question in the DIY Tube section at Audio Asylum . I'm sure there are more people over there that have worked and heard more of these amps. Good Luck Craig ------------------ HH Scott 299 Amp HH Scott LT-110B Tuner HH Scott P-87 Turn Table JVC JL-F50 Turn Table Sony CDP-CA7ES CD Drive 1985 Walnut Heresey I W/Layne Audio Woofers KSW-15 Subs>c> This message has been edited by NOS440 on 08-24-2002 at 09:36 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted August 24, 2002 Share Posted August 24, 2002 Ever been to a Custom Car show or a Hot Rod show? Miles upon miles of square footage where everyone's baby is featured in its own space usually with the smilling proud owner standing by ready to answer questions and brag about how her (his) machine does it for him (her) and is the best answer period. Ever notice the incredible variety and radically different approaches! That's America. Each to his own. Its all good. Sometimes what grabs you is how an old vintage piece has been upgraded or modified to a shiny new piece of creativity, but the elan of the original vintage, whatever it was, still shows through and is part of the charm and magic. Sometimes the oddest most offbeat and uncommon vintage makes for the most challenging project and in the end creates the most dramatic impact when finished. Like a parent, the owner thinks his kid is the best on the block, it is human nature, and it is all fun, and is part of the whole picture which must also include acceptance and latitude. Some just love the old '40 Ford, common as it might have been, but there is no end to the TLC some are willing to put into that machine to bring it up to an exciting level, likewise for many other years and makes. This variety and personal ingenuity is part of the art. There are plenty of folks, right here in my own hometown, driving around in totally restored Model A Fords. Man those things can be pretty and the owners look like they are just as happy as can be, not concerned at all about the limitations of its top speed. It is the same pride I see for the later models I see cruising around here by the folks who like more speed or whatever. Even at the dragstrip you see (or at least as I remember from last time I went....not very recently tho) this tendency toward wide variety and individual preference. There are different classes and categories, but the proud owners are into what they are into because it does it for them and sometimes what one is into is having something a little different from the common or the norm. When you see the mills under the hood, you just know that what is powering that machine is tops for what could be fit into the space or budget of the project, not necessarily based on a comparison to an Absolute. There just isn't one, an absolute, I mean, just personal preference. A combination of NOS and replica parts is usually part of the process. One guy might win that weekend, but maybe someone else wins next time, but the owners keep tweaking and trying different ideas and/or parts upgrades. Its all in the competitive fun and everyone digs the variety however offbeat. So, let's say you suddenly want a Rod or a Custom, what do you do to join in the fun? Well, I guess you could buy a readily available and relatively expensive fiber-glass ready made replica out of the catalog, or you could scout around until you found a vintage bargain retired in some old barn and covered with cobwebs and feel real lucky that you found anything to start with on your creative adventure!, or you could refinance the house and buy another Hotrodder's finished masterpiece when that guy wants to start over again from scratch. Then again you could buy a current production model of something addressing your desires. You could even walk from the street right into a momentary relationship with a salesman on the floor and see where she wants to take you. Whatever you end up with might become your baby and that is the one which hopefully does it for you for whatever combination of reasons, conscious or otherwise. No one answer. Each to his own. -C&S ------------------ Cornwalls currently upgrading to all tube components This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 08-24-2002 at 02:05 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted August 24, 2002 Share Posted August 24, 2002 Excellent analogies there, Clipped. You nailed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted August 24, 2002 Author Share Posted August 24, 2002 Guys, I can't ask for anything more. That EICO HF-81 seems to be elusive. There is an ad on Audiogon from a guy looking for one (is it one of you guys?). But there are Several ST 70s, Scotts and a few other Eicos. I'm not in a position to audition these babies (unless one of you is in Orange Cty, Ca.), so I have to trust write ups and others' comparisons found on forums like this one and like on the Scott page. I am very curious of these and wish to better my soldering skills, which are rusty I'm sure. C&S, you have captured in essence why I am choosing the vintage route; I cannot commit to another mortgage for newer gear. Besides, what fun would it be? Also, and perhaps most important is the "stock" versus "modified" question. Many potentially great amps miss the mark for the lack of a few good parts, or a few simple modifications. If $50 worth of new parts, a little schematic juggling and some soldering skill can turn a lowly 50's budget amp into a Gorilla that can compare to the $2,000 modern amps, it broadens the whole range of possibilities. This is what I'm after...being able to get into tubes at an affordable price, picking out from available mods, and doing the mods as I can afford time and $$$. You guys provided me with a lot of good info and I have the links for the Eico page and the Scott page where I can get even more info, and I thank you all! C&S, gig? What do you play (percussion & keyboards?) ------------------ Andy 78 Khorns (20' apart!) Audire Difet 3 Preamp Adcom GFA 535 II NAD 4130 Tuner Marantz CD 63SE Pioneer DV 434s>c> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted August 25, 2002 Share Posted August 25, 2002 oops, I just lost a post because I accidentally hit "post new topic" when I meant to hit "post reply", because I did not enter a "title" it wouldn't post it, then when I hit the back button it was gone, darn. I was going to mention looking for tube gear at flea markets, yard sales, garage sales, estate sales. Sometimes tube amps are hiding in those large wooden consoles, not any worse than unloading a portable electronic keyboard, which is what I have to do now. -C&S ------------------ Cornwalls currently upgrading to all tube components Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted August 25, 2002 Share Posted August 25, 2002 when I was looking a year or two ago, Eicos seemd to be cheap to the market compared to the well deserved reputation of the Dynacos, but then we didn't have Kelly mobile homeless to support us either, since I can't solder, I went with an assembled Bottlehead 2A3, but I also loved the quick little ASL Wave 8s for only $99: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0302/aslwave8.htm BTW Tom, I also set aside my DOD active crossover, I did not find the magical settings that smoothed out the transistion between upper and lower drivers and the Khorn seems so much smoother than the Cornwalls ... ------------------ Colin's Music System Ak-2 Khorns & Klipsch subs; lights out, tubes glowing & smile beaming! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted August 26, 2002 Author Share Posted August 26, 2002 Colin, those Wave 8s do look tempting. There's something I like (conceptually) about the integrated vintage amps...all in one...shortest path between amp & preamp... ------------------ Andy 78 Khorns (20' apart!) Audire Difet 3 Preamp Adcom GFA 535 II NAD 4130 Tuner Marantz CD 63SE Pioneer DV 434s>c> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 26, 2002 Share Posted August 26, 2002 Andy, you do have a point, especially when thinking of the shortest path between the amp and preamp. Unfortunately, most vintage integrated units, to be honest, have more switches, dials, knobs, controls, filters, etc thus making the shortest, least corrupted signal path a rather moot point. Of course, compared to the modern AV receiver, it is VERY simple. The actual simplist form of amplification is the Single-ended triode where there are so few parts, you can actually hear the substitutions in a system that is resolving enough throughout the chain. Simple is not everything, however. But there is a lot to be said for it. My main rig is about as honed down as you can get with few parts from beginning to end than most have in just their 6 disc CD changer. The only devices I now have in my preamp are source switching, standby, and attenuation. Even balance is gone. Although I have gear in my closet and attic with subsonic filters, high pass filters, loudness, tone controls, MPX, slopes etc, I have generally weeded them all out of my main gear. The SET amp doesnt even split the audio waveform like all other push-pull amps. IT only goes through ONE output tube (when not in parallel) and there are no crossover artifacts. This is much of the reason why these super low power tube amps, with the ultra simple triode tubes with less elements, sound so open and alive, with an immedicay and intimacy that is unobtainable with most electronics. Of course, you sacrifice power hence the need for SUPER EFFICIENT HORNS in the 100-104db range or more. kh ------------------ Phono Linn Sondek LP-12 Valhalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover Links system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 08-26-2002 at 02:46 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted August 26, 2002 Share Posted August 26, 2002 kh, Could you explain what a "crossover element" is in this context. Good to see the forum back to the learning curve for us newbies. Thanks. -C&S ------------------ Cornwalls currently upgrading to all tube components Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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