Comments Please! Does this solve the Bass Mgmt Dilemma?

[erikjohn]

Boa,

For clarification and to keep from confusing myself I will refer to your responses with "Boa stated". I am not trying to be argumentative or condescending by this.

Boa stated "this is where i degress. i think this the same as like "fronts+lfe" on any other receiver. that is its from the sub's perspective - IT gets low ba$$ from fronts set large as well as ALL the LFE (no LFE goes to fronts)."

I disagree but I may be wrong. When you are listening in DD 5.1 the sub does not get front low frequencies unless Mains are set to small. When you are listening in Pro-Logic from a 2 channel source then yes the sub does get front low frequencies by default of the internal decoding in the reciever as Pro-logic does not have a .1 signal encoded in it. IE it is not a discrete signal it is derived. However there is also some grey area here, depending on whether the 2 channel signal is encoded with Pro-Logic or if it just a 2 channel stereo signal and the amp is deriving a center channel and adjusting the output of the front two channels by whi. Keeping in mind that Pro-Logic can be used with any 2 channel signal.

Boa stated "only way LFE goes to the front speakers (terminals &/or preouts), is when you set "Main" which is like setting Sub:No on most other receivers. "

I disagree here again. The LFE goes to the fronts when the the LFE is set to "Both" at least on the Yamaha.

You are correct and I forgot to mention that setting the amp needs to be set to "no" for the sub this allows the LFE to be disbursed through the other channels if they are set to Large but my point here is not to be able to get the LFE through the front channel or the other channels for that matter, it is to get the Front channel low ba$$ to the sub while maintianing LFE and Front Channel Low Ba$$ in the fronts.

Boa stated "keywords - subwoofer, mix, Main, low, LFE; that is the mixing is being done in the sub. not in the fronts. I think yammy is confusing people by calling low ba$$ "low frequency sound". but they don't mean LFE here. they mean low ba$$ from the other channels besides the .1 (Low Frequency Effects). can be pretty confusin."

Yes, Yammy is confusing people here. I think in general we are too, well at least I probably am. Anyway you have been a very good critic of my logic, for that I thank you. I was being somewhat sarcastic in my 99.99% comments, these are merely with my expiriences.

Boa stated "I think/hope you mean "sub output" in place of ".1 channel output" and "low ba$$" in place of ".1 channel". again, the dif between low ba$$ & LFE (.1 channel). ba$$ mgmt works w/ low ba$$. all ba$$ mgmt works w/ really is low ba$$. as far as LFE, it either sends it to the fronts only (MAIN), OR to the sub only (the other two settings)."

Yes I do mean sub output I was just calling it .1 output for whatever reason, I am as bad as Yammy. Does your amp have a .1 output and sub output? Mine have always only had one subwoofer output(well the RX-V1 has three sub outputs Front-Rear-Mono) The amp figures out what will be sent out of the sub output depending on the source. I think there is some confusion here regarding this issue. Tell me if I am wrong here in these scenarios:

Scenario 1

Source: 2 channel input via digital or analog (ie rca or pcm(opt/coax))

Speaker Settings: Front Large, Rear Large, Center Large, Sub On, LFE:Both

Amp DSP/Mode setting: Pro-Logic

What signal is set to sub output?: Low Frequencies that are derived from the 2 channel inputs. The Front speakers and the sub are reproducing the low frequencies.

Scenario 2

Source: 5.1 channel input via digital or analog(6 rca cables)

Speaker Settings: Front Large, Rear Large, Center Large, Sub On, LFE:Both

Amp DSP/Mode setting: DD 5.1

What signal is sent to the Front speakers? L-R front decoded signal

What bass is sent to the Front channels? L-R intrnal signal bass mixed with LFE bass due to "LFE Both" setting on the amp.

What signal is set to sub output?: .1 LFE signal only

Scenario 3

Source: 5.1 channel input via digital or analog(6 rca cables)

Speaker Settings: Front Small, Rear Small, Center Small, Sub On, LFE:Sub

Amp DSP/Mode setting: DD 5.1

What signal is sent to the Front speakers? L-R front decoded signal less LFE and Front Channel Low Frequencies

What low freq is sent to the front channels? None

What signal is set to sub output?: .1 LFE and all other 5 channels low freq

Scenario 4

Source: 5.1 channel input via digital or analog(6 rca cables)

Speaker Settings: Front Small, Rear Small, Center Small, Sub On, LFE:Sub

Amp DSP/Mode setting: DD 5.1

What low freq is sent to the front channels? None below set range

What signal is set to sub output?: .1 LFE and all other 5 channels low freq

Scenario 5

Source: 5.1 channel input via digital or analog(6 rca cables)

Speaker Settings: Front Large, Rear Large, Center Large, Sub Off, LFE:Main

Amp DSP/Mode setting: DD 5.1

What signal is sent to the Front speakers? L-R front decoded signal plus .1 LFE signal

What signal is set to sub output?: none

Scenario 6 (Use Main Preout to Sub Input)

Source: 5.1 channel input via digital or analog(6 rca cables)

Speaker Settings: Front Large, Rear Large, Center Large, Sub Off, LFE:Main

Amp DSP/Mode setting: DD 5.1

What signal is sent to the Front speakers? L-R front decoded signal plus .1 LFE signal

What signal is set to sub output?: none

What signal is sub receiving through main pre out?: Front channel low frequencies and .1 LFE

Note: On recievers with a Main out AND Main in you will need to close the loop back into the amp by splitting the Main out L-R with 2 Y-connectors with one pair(L-R) of leads going to the sub and the other pair(L-R) going back into the Main In. This can also be done with an outboard eq or other components that have multiple inputs and outputs. Also this may not work on amps with a main out only as some may cancel the internal amp because the reciever has detected the use of an outbaord amp.

Boa stated "actually in 5.1 as well, about all do mix the front/low bass from other channels set small w/ LFE in the sub, & when your fronts are set large & you use the "Both" setting. the only way its true that the sub gets no low bass from other channels is when you set the speaks large & the sub setting to LFE only (or the equivalent moniker by yammy)."

I agree which is why I setup the way I have explained.

Boa stated "but the bass mgmt dsp are configured to send low bass to the sub as well as LFE, unless you want to run speaks large. but then many of us have found poor bass by doing that, especially on 2-channel music."

I agree here again which is why I don't do it that way.

Boa stated "guess they leave it up to the mixers to put most of the low frequency sounds in 5.1 in the .1 channel/LFE & sub only so as not to muddy up the sub w/ both. at least not both to the sub at the same time."

Yes but I don't like to leave it up to the mixers. An accurate sub with some good power is all over it. It's really no different than puttng the LFE through your Fronts there are just no mids or highs eminating from the same box. Also yes you can get things a little muddified overall in the system this way because of the overabundance of bass everywhere. This is why I equalize the the front channels. It lets me balance out the mids and highs with all the ba$$.

Boa Stated ".1 channel is LFE & is a discrete channel. the receiver/dsp does not derive it from the material. the .1 LFE is already encoded on the material as a seperate channel. again, if you substitute "low bass" for ".1 channel you are correct."

Ok clarification on my line of thinking:

.1 = all low fequency signals sent from the amp through the sub output.

LFE = Low Frequency Effects encoded in DD 5.1, DTS, Etc and is a discrete channel that the sub output discretly utilizes the .1 output when listening to these source materials

.1 does not equal LFE

The .1 in 5.1 does not mean that .1 signals are unique to the format nearly that the .1 channel is a discrete channel and not derived from the other 5. Dolby labs defines .1 as low frequencies out of 1 being the full harmonic range of a signal .1 being the low end of it.

Please note that I don't think I ever used .1 and LFE together unless it was applicable.

Boa Stated "that's pretty true, but again i'd use the term "sub output" in place of .1 output. stereo material doesn't have a .1 channel."

Yes I understand that, but I still like my 4.1 stereo.

Boa stated "I agree its confusing. But Ba$$ Management is probably

the most complex issue in dealing w/ units & their dsp."

Yeh tell me about it, maybe it is rocket science. I will check the NASA job directory to see if they have any "Ba$$ Management Engineers" that can help clear up some of these issues.

[boa12]

ej, yeah, right on, hopefully we can find the truth. as far as what yammy does for LFE its really down to this (unless they tell you more in the manual):

"-Select the "SW" setting if you are going to use a subwoofer. The LFE signals are directed to the sub.

-Select the "Main" setting if you do not use a subwoofer. The LFE signals are directed to the Main speakers.

-Select the "Both" setting if you use a subwoofer and you want to mix the Main channel low frequency sound signals with the LFE signals."

where does it say for "both" that low bass & LFE are mixed in the mains, rather than the sub? my contention is they are taking from the sub's perspective since this is a subwoofer control. the only place they mention mains is in the "main" setting, which appears to coincide w/ the sub:no on most receivers & prepro, & which is the only setting where LFE goes to the mains/fronts because no sub is then attached to the sub preout. so it looks like yammy uses the same common algorithm as all other makers' dsp.

yes this is a misnomer that causes much confusion. most call it sub out which also handles LFE. but some call it LFE out when it also handles sub low bass to the sub. then some submakers call it LFE in when its also handling low bass. confusin to many. that's why that pdf i posted above is a good primer for explaing that sub low bass & LFE are completetly different & how they are.

"Ok clarification on my line of thinking:

.1 = all low fequency signals sent from the amp through the sub output.

LFE = Low Frequency Effects encoded in DD 5.1, DTS, Etc and is a discrete channel that the sub output discretly

utilizes the .1 output when listening to these source materials

.1 does not equal LFE

The .1 in 5.1 does not mean that .1 signals are unique to the format nearly that the .1 channel is a discrete channel

and not derived from the other 5. Dolby labs defines .1 as low frequencies out of 1 being the full harmonic range of a

signal .1 being the low end of it.

Please note that I don't think I ever used .1 and LFE together unless it was applicable."

i would call what you're calling .1, low bass. that means any low bass determined by small setting on any of the 2-5 channels at the crossover (fixed on yours at 90hz on down) or by the "both" setting which sends low bass from the front channels set large also to your sub preout

in other words .1 is the discrete LFE channels bandwidth. iow, .1 & LFE are the same. your yammy has it labeled sub out. but it also handles LFE only to it unless you use the "main" setting which then sends lfe to the main/fronts channels (speaker connections & fronts preouts).

iow, if you don't use the sub out connection & set to either "SW" (LFE only to sub) or "both" (low bass & LFE to sub), you lose your LFE because its only going to the sub out. the yammy manual should point out that if you're not using a sub on the sub out, you should set "main" to get LFE from the fronts by using those preouts &/or speaker connections.

this makes sense because a sub should be much more capable of handling both low bass & LFE. on the other hand, front/main speakers are not as capable of handling both low bass & LFE.

that's why i brought up the intital post idea. using this way i figured you in effect used the front preouts to the outboard crossover & then to sub, to handle the low bass w/ a variable crossover. then you run

another connection in parallel from the sub out to the sub to handle LFE & not be filtered out by a crossover.

i think that would work to help w/ the problem of a high fixed crossover of like 80 or 90hz in many receivers & when you want the fronts large & sub filtered lower at like 50hz for the LOW BASS. as for LFE you want that full .1 range going unimpeded to the sub. but still to be determined if that works i guess.

[erikjohn]

Please allow me to remove head from a$$. No, your right on the LFE/Low Freq thing out to sub. I was confusin myself there. Yes bass management in the amp will allow for front low bass and LFE to sub in Both modes. However it does not allow LFE to fronts, only in sub off mode. I was contradicting myself in my last post to what I was actually tring to say so I'll keep it short and sweet here. Both mode sends front low and LFE to sub with front setting on main only gets front lows to mains no LFE. In short on my amp there is no way to get Main Lows and LFE to sub AND MAINS at the same time without using Front Outs to sub by settiong bass management to mains and front speaker setting to large. Your whole from the subs perspective thing is on the mark, my bad. Also I am not using the sub out at all, all of the lows/lfe is routed thorugh the fornt pre out.

Note that the khorn goes down to 33hz. If you have the time or the inkling try this and let me know what you think.

[boa12]

ej, i think most of the makers have their head up there & don't know how to explain it, so don't feel bad. when i came on here 2 yrs ago i didn't know a thing about it or digital or multi-channel (except for my quad fiasco in the early 70s .)

that's correcto. i did it your way when i had the marantz sr8000. then went back to setting all my big speaks small & using sub out. couldn't find satisfaction either way for my finicky self

so thats when i went w/ the pre/pro w/ the crossovers adjustable in the digital processor.

maybe you could try what i brought up here by using an outboard crossover from the fronts preouts & running another connection from the sub out using the "SW" setting in the yammy.

i think that'd work, but on paper. haven't tried it.

[erikjohn]

Yea I think that would definitley work and probably make things a whole lot easier. It's gonna be a while before I do any more upgrades though, I jsut got the RX-V1 and bought the Khorns about 2 months ago and right now we are building a new addition to house the gear. I can't wait, fully dedicated Theater/Music room, block walls, 9 foot ceilings, 25'x 30'. I don't have the Khorns in corners now as there is no place for them so I cant wait.

[boa12]

ej, 10-4. another option is use an outboard power amp w/ the yammy & put a crossover box between the amp & receiver, or between a dvd player & the receiver direct inputs, like the outlaw icbm.