Comments Please! Does this solve the Bass Mgmt Dilemma?

[boa12]

using a simple external crossover, like the x-30 in this case. may have a solution to letting the bigger speaks run more free, while also getting full LFE to the sub. thoughts?

" Basically the

crossover accepts the left and right pre-outs from the 3802 only, and does not have an

any inputs left for LFE (if you are cutting your mains at the crossover and sending them

back to the reciever)."

maybe we can tackle this. you say the above, but are there any other connections

running to the x-30, such as from the denon sub preout?

the denon sub preout handles both low bass from speaks set small & from the fronts if

you have the fronts+lfe setting, & all LFE as long as you have sub:yes.

if all you're doing is running the denon front preouts to the X30 & then on to the velo L&R

inputs, & have the setting sub:no, then the denon sends the LFE through the front

preouts but you're cutting that at 50hz.

maybe what you could do is use the setting in the denon

for "LFE only" & set sub:yes. on the velo, switch its crossover off. then get an rca

Y-adapter & also run an interconnect from the denon subout to the left input of the velo.

may want to get 2 Y-adpaters if you want the sub out/LFE going to both line inputs of

the velo.

then you have all the low bass for the large fronts plus that low bass directed there from

the other speaks

set small, going thru the X30 & low passed to the velo

at 50hz. the velo, w/ its crossover off, gets the full LFE signal from the other

connection(s) from the denon sub out (lfe only).

thanks. using an external crossover, we may have found a simple solution to the bass

mgmt. dilemma. trying to find a downside to this, but none so far (besides having to buy

another interconnect & Y-adapter or 2).

passed at 50hz to the velo.

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My Home Systems Page

[pierceb]

Boa,

I will have to reply to this when I get home from work, because it's just too distracting.

I should clarify though, that my sub is a Paradigm Servo-15, not a Velodyne (if only I had the money for a velo). If you want to look a bit more, check the Paradign site for info on the X-30. I'm not sure you can do what you propose with this paricular crossover.

-PB

[boa12]

pb, sorry. forgot that was paradigm.

http://www.paradigm.ca/Website/SiteParadigmProduct/ParadigmModels/HighPassSWControlUnits/ControlUnit_Specs.htm

anyway, why not connect your fronts to the denon speaker posts, & use the X-30 connected from both denon front preouts only as the low pass to the sub L&R line inputs?

then as above. that's what i was assuming could be done. but maybe that's backwards since it looks like the x-30 is meant to be run back into the denon. but since the denon doesn't have power inputs, where do you run it back into? the tape monitor jacks?

if the x-30 doesn't work, what one needs is an external low pass crossover to get my above idea to work. one w/ L & R line inputs that sums the signal to one line output to sub & has a low pass crossover.

sort of like the outlaw icbm. except this way you don't need a seperate power amp for it to go between, nor only putting that between a dvdp & receiver & only being able to use it for that.

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My Home Systems Page

[boa12]

pb, looks to me like the x-30 would work.

-connect the denon fronts preouts to the X-30 line ins.

-it has a sub output to run to sub.

-just don't run the line level high pass outputs back into the denon.

-connect the front speaks to the denon fronts terminals

-also run an interconnect from the denon sub-out directly to the sub (need y-adapters)

-set sub:yes, fronts:large & all others small, & use "LFE only" for bass control

-switch out the crossover on the sub or turn it all the way up to like 120hz or highest.

then the x-30 controls only the low bass to the sub. the sub still gets the full LFE because you're sending only LFE to the denon sub out & its bypassing the X-30.

am i missing something?

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My Home Systems Page

[pierceb]

So, I would need a y-adapter with two female ends on it and one male end (with the male end connected to the input on the subwoofer). One of the female ends connected to the sub-out on the Denon and the other end connected to the sub out on the x-30? Seems like it would work, but could there be some sort of loop problem or confusion of signals going back and forth from the Denon to the crossover?

I told you this is too distracting! Damn internet!

-PB

[m00n]

Damn Boa....

I am depressed, my audio hero doesnt have ALL the answers. How could this be? It even says "Answering Machine" next to your post count.

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m00nsCinema to be

m00ns current toys

FRONTS: RF-7

CENTER: RC-7

SURROUNDS: RS-7

SUB: RSW-12

RECEIVER: Harman Kardon AVR 520

DVD: Harman Kardon DVD-50(DD, DTS)

VIDEO: InFocus ScreenPlay DLP Projector

COMPUTER: ProMedia 4.1

c>Microsoft XBOX with Monster cable for that 5.1 Dolby Digitial surroundc>

f>

[boa12]

pb, yea that's it! you may want to also split the denon sub out/lfe connection to both the sub's inputs.

were're talking all preamp signals here. that is before they get amplified. so no real danger in trying. shouldn't be any ground loop problems either. if there are, float the ground on your sub's power plug w/ a 3-2 cheater plug, if you're not already.

when you set LFE only on the denon, the sub is getting a totally dif signal than what its getting from the X-30 (low bass from the other channels). LFE is a totally seperate channel - the .1 in 5.1.

many subs have line inputs & a seperate LFE input, like the ksw-15. but all you're doing is combining the low bass & LFE mono signals into one before its amplified. should be no different than what a prepro in the receiver does when it put out both low bass & LFE simultaneuosly to the sub out (such as when you set the denon to fronts+LFE).

just takes another interconnect & adapters to try. should work fine. think the only dif is you'll then get a full dose of LFE. & that's a good thing.

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My Home Systems Page

[boa12]

m00n, don't worry, just rhetorical questions. just never thought of this before. & its all on paper for me. but think its good to go.

& we don't need it because we have adjustable crossovers in our processors that allow down to 40-60hz for low bass filtering on the sub. (high pass too in my case ).

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My Home Systems Page

[pierceb]

Well Boa, all I can say is that I'm worried I could fry something in my 3802 (maybe a good reason to upgrade to separates!!).

Ground loop won't be a problem as the Servo-15 doesn't have a ground prong on the power cord. The Servo-15 only has a single input on the subwoofer unit itself. That is why I have an external crossover unit (comes standard with the sub). The X-30 has two line inputs and one of these inputs is designated for LFE only for use with the sub-out on the reciever only. HENCE MY PROBLEM. If there were a separate input on the crossover for LFE, I would be set.

I know my audio cables are directional. Does that mean signals are prevented from going in the wrong direction, or does the cable just perform better in one direction? (Dumb question, just thought I'd ask)

-PB

[boa12]

supposedly goes better in one direction. i wouldn't worry at all, for reasons above. its all preamp output signals.

look at the ksw-15. it has 2 line inputs plus an LFE input. you can connect the mains L & R preouts from the preamp to it as well as run a connect from the sub preout to the lfe in. it takes the L & R signals, sums them together then runs them through the low pass crossover filter (like your x-30). then combines that w/ the nonfiltered LFE input & sends the sum to the amp.

same thing you'd be doing. doesn't the X-30 have a manual that addresses the problem w/ LFE & what to do about it. if they're on the ball, would think they'd tell you to do the above. then again many companies are not on the ball yet these days when it comes to explaining bass mgmt.

here's a pdf primer on LFE & low bass.

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My Home Systems Page

[pierceb]

Thanks for your help Boa,

I'll let you know how it turns out. I don't know if I will try it right away, as I just spend 130 bucks on interconnects last week (in addition to the hundreds I have already spent).

By the way, this is not addressed in the manual, I looked for recommendations in the manual as soon as I pulled the X30 out of the box and saw that it didn't have a separate input for LFE only.

-PB

[boa12]

all you need is a low-cost 75 ohm video cable & 1 or 2 of those adapters.

but yes. they should have a nonfiltered lfe input on the X-30 that sums to the mains preouts signals after they're summed & AFTER that's filtered by the X-30 crossover. of course the Y-adapter does the same thing.

just shows these guys have no clue on the bass managers dilemma. sad.

probably some other external crossovers out there that put a seperate LFE in (nonfiltered) on their box.

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My Home Systems Page

This message has been edited by boa12 on 09-23-2002 at 07:07 PM

[erikjohn]

PB/Boa,

Yes this works fine in fact I first did this about fifteen years ago before 5.1 was even around with my Pro-Logic setup. It's all just simple wiring schemes. I would imagine that many of the posters have done this as I still use this with my 5.1 system. I also have an old radio shack eq that I put in line from the pre outs to the sub so that I can boost the signal and manage the sub bass more effectively.

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89' K-horn's(Mains)

81' Cornwall's(Rears)

85' Heresey's(Centers)

KSW-12(Sub)

Yamaha RX-V1

61" Hitachi WIDESCREEN

Dish Net w/Opt Out

X-Box w/Opt & Cmpnt Outs(DVD/CD)

JVC S-VHS

Sony Minidisk

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This message has been edited by erikjohn on 09-24-2002 at 06:45 AM

[Klipsch-daddy]

boa12,

is it worth the trouble? Will there be that much of a difference in the lfe output?

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Home Theater:

Yamaha RX-V1000

Klipsch RF-3's

Klipsch KSC-C1(LOOKING FOR A RC-3 OR RC-3II)

Kenwood KSV64 Bipolar Speakers

Klipsch Subwoofer KSW-12

Television: TOSHIBA THEATER VIEW 50"

DVD Player SONY S-360

CD Changer CDC 585 5 Disc Yamaha

Harman Kardon TC-1000

monster cable interconnects/12 gauge speaker wire

[erikjohn]

kdaddy,

Although I am not boa i will respond. To answer your question Yes, there should be a noticable difference as I have always expirienced one by doing what Boa states which is:

-Turn off sub option in amp so that LFE goes to main channels. Obviously this is going to increase your bass out put from the front channels assuming your speakers are capable of reproducing the lows.

-Take preouts from main channel and send them to the sub. Cross over these channels by whatever methods you have available (ie internal sub x-over, eq, or standalone x-over) and route them into the sub.

This will work like a charm. The eq on the output to the sub is a nice touch to get some real control of your bass management by being able to attentuate the signal as you wish. Note that I have put one channel of the eq just on the sub out (0.1 channel) also to manage bass which also works well.

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89' K-horn's(Mains)

81' Cornwall's(Rears)

85' Heresey's(Centers)

KSW-12(Sub)

Yamaha RX-V1

61" Hitachi WIDESCREEN

Dish Net w/Opt Out

X-Box w/Opt & Comp Outs(DVD/CD)

JVC S-VHS

Sony Minidisk

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[boa12]

ej, are you switching to sub:no & not using the sub preout? from what i've seen, only the yammy have a control to set sub:yes, use the sub preout, & send LFE (not low sub bass) to both sub & fronts.

most other receivers send LFE to the sub only as long as you set sub:yes. that's what i was dealing w/ above for those receivers like denon & most others that only allow for controls of low bass (not lfe), such as the LFE only or fronts + LFE (which really means the low bass does not go to sub also w/ fronts large, & low bass does go to sub & fronts:large, respectively.

w/ the yammys & that LFE control, why not set sub:yes, big speaks large, use the crossover on your sub or external to where it jives best w/ the speakers, & set that lfe control to both so it goes also to the big fronts? also set the sub bass control so it sends low bass to both fronts & sub.

then you connect the fronts to the speaker terminals, sub to sub preout. that way the fronts are also getting the LFE so you don't lose any when you dial down the crossover on your sub.

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My Home Systems Page

[boa12]

ej, looks like you're doing the same thing i just said but using the fronts preouts to the sub instead of the sub preout.

would it be better to use the sub preout or is there a downside to that? iow, is it true that the yammy has an lfe control that sends LFE (not low bass) to both the sub preout & the fronts speaker terminals? i've been told a few times on here that it does.

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My Home Systems Page

[erikjohn]

Boa,

I am not currently doing this with the RX-V1 as I haven't had alot of time to fool around with the settings on it to figure out all of the options that it will allow. I will fiddle around with it as time permits however I am familiar with the old Yammy 5250 and I would assume I have many of the same options on the new one.

Now for the post:

Yes it sounds like we are saying basically the same thing. The Yammy's will send LFE to sub and fronts however this means the Mains get whatever they would have normally for bass plus the LFE in the mix and obviously the sub preout gets just the LFE signal. This is why I like to use the main preouts to the sub, that way you get all of the bass not just the LFE to the sub. This is also benifical if you listen in 2 channel stereo because you are then utilizing the sub for lows.

When you set to LFE out specifically when you listen Digital 5.1 since the sub is dedicated any bass sent to mains is not routed to sub unless encoded on that channel. Using the main preouts with the amp setting on either no sub or mix(LFE to mains and sub as you stated and yes the Yammy does this) will allow any lows encoded only on fronts to also be be routed to the sub. If you have a good set of main speakers that are capable of deep solid bass you need to utilize them to help reproduce the LFE as much as possible. If you setup your sytem with the sub off an use the main preouts to the sub you should notice more bass in the system. Keeping in mind that even though bass is not directional this makes the sweetspot larger and fuller and it is difficult to pinpoint where the bass is originating from, it is just in your face. It just seems to engulf you better especially for movies. To each his own but this is my expirience.

Also keep in mind that to me there can never be too much bass, I am not happy until all the windows are rattling, the glasses are shaking out of the cupboards and the TV looks blurry from the shake so I may be a little opinionated and to many this may be overkill.

EJ

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89' K-horn's(Mains)

81' Cornwall's(Rears)

85' Heresey's(Centers)

KSW-12(Sub)

Yamaha RX-V1

61" Hitachi WIDESCREEN

Dish Net w/Opt Out

X-Box w/Opt & Comp Outs(DVD/CD)

JVC S-VHS

Sony Minidisk

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[boa12]

"When you set to LFE out specifically when you listen Digital 5.1 since the sub is dedicated any bass sent to mains is not routed to sub"

ej, ok i was under the wrong impression on the yammy controls. a few yammy posters here said that there are 2 controls - sub control & LFE control. that is, you can set those so that low bass goes to both fronts:large & sub preout AND LFE goes to both.

so that's not the case? iow, the yammy is dif in that it allows LFE to go to both, but it doesn't then allow low bass to both w/ that setting? don't know why they do that, but yeah if that's the case then you have to use the fronts preouts to do both for LFE & low bass.

i still prefer an adjustable crossover in the processor, so that LFE goes only to sub & low bass is cut much lower than the 80-90hz (both high & low pass),

but at least they're ways like this around a high fixed crossover & big speaks.

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My Home Systems Page

[erikjohn]

Boa,

An exerpt from the RX-V1 manual:

LFE/Bass Out(Bass Out Mode)

LFE signals carry low frequency effects when this unit decodes DD or DTS signals. Low frequency signals are defined as 90 mhz and below. The initial setting is "Both"

-Select the "SW" setting if you are going to use a subwoofer. The LFE signals are directed to the sub.

-Select the "Main" setting if you do not use a subwoofer. The LFE signals are directed to the Main speakers.

-Select the "Both" setting if you use a subwoofer and you want to mix the Main channel low frequency sound signals with the LFE signals.

So in the both mode you do get LFE in the main speakers but you don get main speaker low frequencies in the subwoofer therefore the mains have the potential to be producing low frequencies that are not being directed to you sub because. The only way to get those signals to the sub out is to set the amp to "Small" for the front speakers in which case it would send low frequencies that would normally be produced from the front channel and mix it with the LFE and send it to the sub, then there are no low frequencies whatsoever coming through the Main speakers only the sub. I guess you could say I am just trying to get the best of both worlds.

So yes you are correct you have to use the front preouts to do both LFE and low bass to the sub. I agree that an internal adjustable crossover in the receiver is desireable but it still doesn't solve the problem of getting front speaker low bass to the sub (all crossover frequencies aside). The dedicated LFE channel may be a crossed over version of what you hear out of the fronts but then again it may be tottally independent depending on the original track assignment at the mixing lab.

I am not clear on what you mean by "low bass is cut much lower than 80-90hz but at least there are ways around a high fixed x-over & big speakers". I am not sure what you mean by high fixed, do you mean low fixed? I wish the sub out was fixed at something more like 150hz so I could do the adjusting on the x-over in the sub if I wanted to cut somewhere above 90hz rather than limiting me to 90hz and below.

I don't know, maybe once again we are still saying the same thing. My head is starting to hurt.

EJ

------------------

89' K-horn's(Mains)

81' Cornwall's(Rears)

85' Heresey's(Centers)

KSW-12(Sub)

Yamaha RX-V1

61" Hitachi WIDESCREEN

Dish Net w/Opt Out

X-Box w/Opt & Comp Outs(DVD/CD)

JVC S-VHS

Sony Minidisk

-------------------------