Hey Mobile...

[maxg]

I have exchanged emails with the guy at Tsakiridis devices and it seems he is open to all sorts of things. I am waiting for him to get back to me on the tube rectification issue.

In the meantime it looks like he is ready to deal and trade in my existing amps / old pre-amp etc.

Looks like I could be joining the SET club. Not only that but I have asked him to look at putting a tube based phono stage for me so I can move to an MC cartridge...

Watch this space.

[dubai2000]

Max,

any idea how much he'd charge for such a phono stage?

Wolfram

[maxg]

I am waiting to find out myself - but he is normally very cheap.

Will let you know...(another thing I owe you).

Cheers

[mobile homeless]

Actually, what I might suggest, if he is nearby, is to audition a pair of his 300B monoblocks in your own system over a weekend at least. I would really recommend this before just trading in your old equipment and making a headlong leap here. Also, before auditioning, I would listen to some other SET circuits at club members homes, preferably without a crowd. Remember, all SET amps are not created equal by any means, just as in PP. A lot of the expense goes into the transformers; I see he evidently winds his own transformers. I dont think your builder does any amps with tube rectification so making a change here into a new design is something to give slight pause depending on experience and what he does. Dont just trade in the whole nine yards, though. I would seriously consider taking advantage of some audition time hopefully in your own system, perhaps with some setup help from the builder if he is around. Seems smart to me.

kh

[maxg]

A home demo would be a great idea for the standard product. I should be able to arrange it - but not until the end of the month as that is the earliest he can have one ready.

I am hoping it will integrate well with the Sansui's and the ZTPRE - and I am taking your word for it that this tube rectification thing is the one to have - he will build that one to order for me.

Otherwise we will see how it pans out. I have heard other set units before (at Arco's house for one).

The main aim will be to see how it compares to what I have now. the relative performance Vs the other SET amps out there will be something I discover later.

As I have seen before the tube makes a huge difference. No doubt there is some rolling ahead...

[Deang]

I'm no expert on these things by any stretch of the imagination. I'll just say that if you are going to go this route, I really think you should be more concerned about the quality of the transformers, rather than what kind of rectification is utilized.

Think about the sound of your system and what you are trying to get to. Tube rectification softens things up a little. This may be great for Heritage speakers -- but what about your Sansuis?

I'm tube rectified on my preamp, and SS rectification on the amps. I like it. I think with my speakers at least, tube rectification on the amps might be too much of a good thing.

I think we should talk less about what type of rectification, and more about the iron.

[mobile homeless]

The iron, as stated, is an unknown source as the company winds it. And as I stated, the presentation of rectification is a personal issue. I happen to actually really find SS rectification not to my liking. Once aware of this difference, it is really distinguishable and bothersome to me. I hear the difference immediately. It has played a part in why I don't like many, many modern amps such as the Super Amp, which I think was VERY nice but just not musical, relaxed, or ultimately smooth enough for my long term liking. I find SS rectification to add a slight electronic character to the reproduction, not matter how well it's done. My Quebec friend disagrees here too but it is VERY important to me. Part of the reason I love the vintage units is the GREAT output iron and also the tube rectification. Most SETs besides the Bottlehead gear employ tube rectification for this ease. As I said, others don't mind it at all, ie you, Erik, and a host of others. None of the Bottlehead gear is tube rectified and they have a large following. Still, so far, I have yet to hear an amp I really like that utilizes SS rect.

I brought the iron issue up in my first response. It is of unknown quality really. That is why I stress auditioning various SETs including the ones he is interested in.

kh

[Deang]

Yes, you touched on it, and I wanted again to bring it to Maxs' attention, as he seems to be putting the most emphasis on the manner of rectification in his decision process. I was just trying to point out that the quality of the transformer(s)will ulitmately have more to do with the quality of the sound than the type of rectification employed -- at least, that's what I've been led to believe.

[dubai2000]

Max,

a lengthy (if possible) home audition should certainly be arranged before deciding on any new piece of gear. I would also suggest trying to borrow Arco's Eico (again if possible) to find out if vintage gear might not be another option (though I really like my SET amp LOL).

I am in the process of evaluating the Eico myself and that's an interesting process (but too early to comment on it yet).

Wolfram

[maxg]

Ok...this is going to get really confusing if I dont take a stand. Basically unless these amps produce a worse sound than the amps I have now I am going to buy them whatever the rectification and then address all issues of upgrading once I have got the things in and working.

I would certainly expect Arco's amps to sound better - there is a fairly significant cost differential, but these amps look like a good jumping off point for SET and the manufacturer seems open to playing with them (as in Kelly comes up with the suggestions and he does to the soldering and whatnot).

Dubai,

As an aside I was out hunting again for your DSOTM. Yet again I came up empty handed on the DSOTM front, but I did find 30 more albums for me. Either I am going to have to succeed in my quest or I am going to have to move into a bigger appartment!!

Interestingly, and typically, I did find 2 PF albums - both much rarer than DSOTM (an original and still sealed Atom Heart Mother and a similar copy of "More" - a film soundtrack that PF did that was missing from my collection).

You have no idea how long I have been searching for "More". I had actually given up on it completely.

I have now only got to get "Piper at the Gates of Dawn" and I have them all..

Of course none of this is what you wanted to hear - but I am working on what should be the easiest task in the world - there were zillions of copies of DSOTM made here- there must be one somewhere!!

[Erik Mandaville]

Max:

You might also ask your builder friend what sort of input filter he will use if he installs a tube rectifier -- two choices:

Choke input filter (probably would cost a little more but better, I think)

Capacitor input filter.

The situtation here presents some power transformer issues that are a little different than a solid state circuit. In addition to the B+ (high voltages), there will also be the need for a secondary on the transformer to heat the rectifier tube. The only reason I bring this up, is that tube rectification is going to cost more than an SS bridge rectifer -- which can be bought here in the States at Radio Shack for almost nothing.

I will reveal that, like Kelly, I prefer a tube rectifier on my amps. I just wanted to explain that the manner in which an amp's DC requirements are converted from AC to DC (either hollow or solid state)is not necessarily a reason to not buy a particular design. Listen to it at home and then decide.

I believe a great deal of how we perceive music also depends on things that are not always associated with the electronic machines that reproduce it. The way we feel on a given day, mood, fatigue, high energy, etc., certainly must come into play, here as well. And this might ultimately influence not only what kind of music one might be in the mood to hear, but also the tone and quality (which is associated with the electronics)of the playback. In other words, there is a human element that comes into play, as well.

anyway....this is getting sort of philosophical...

Have a good day,

Erik

By the way, Max: It might not be the best idea to install a tubed phono stage within the amp, itself, if that's what you were intending. If your builder can build you a freestanding phono stage, ideally with a separate rather than integrated power supply (to reduce the potential for noise), that would good. But then the question remains! The phono stage will require DC voltages, so you have to decide on what sort of rectification would be best to employ.

Erik

[maxg]

Eric,

The phono stage will be a separate item. It has to interface through the Decware ZTPRE that is my pre-amp (and only has line stages).

I am thinking that getting him to create a phono stage and step-up transformer should give that real tubie sound whilst being able to support an MC cartridge. I am very interested to hear what difference this combo will make on my front end in comparison to the fairly low level (quality wise) MM cartridge I have now.

As for the type of tube rectification to be used I am, as ever, totally out of my depth here. I was planning to leave it to Odyseus (the maker) to choose with the only brief being "make it sound better than it does with the standard issue rectification".

As it happens I am now leaning towards getting the thing in standard guise and maybe moving to tube rectification in the future once I have had time to digest the new sound.

Unlike you guys, I am wholey dependent on my ears to tell me what I do and do not like. I have never encumbered my brain with the ins and outs of how these things actually work so till now it has been a case of slowly slowly progressing towards better sound.

The only concern I have is the balance of the system. Right now I would describe the music as well balanced (something Aristidis commented on at the ACA meeting at my house). What I want to make sure of is that I progress whilst retaining that balance.

The interesting thing here is the presence of the sub-woofer. At the same time it provides the bass that truely balances out the sound whilst adding yet another level of complexity to deal with in the setup. Each change upstream requires a lot of work on the cross-over and volume tweaking of the sub to optimize the setup and relatively minor changes result in major sonic improvements.

All of that means that testing takes time. On the positive side I kinda like playing with the settings to get the most out of the sound.

[Erik Mandaville]

Max:

I think you are thinking in exactly the right direction! I do nothing but respect your honesty with this, and learning from listening must be the ultimate test concerning what is best for you. All though I have had great enjoyment building and restoring, there are times I really wish I would just leave things alone and listen to music. I've gotten sick to death (almost...) of switching out different kinds of cable, and had gotten to the point actually where I couldn't remember what was what anymore!

In short, excellent decision on your amplifier choice. Diodes will likely provide a little tighter control and speed of the lower octaves, and I have heard (or read) some say they think tube rectifiers sound mushy and that they lack the precision of solid state AC to DC circuits. So all this blabbing about tube rectifiers (including my own!) should be put aside for awhile -- which it sounds like you're doing. I would certainly trust some of Odysius's thoughts on this, since it really sounds like he knows what he is doing -- far more than I do, I'm sure!

Take Care,

Erik

[maxg]

Erik,

Thanks for the kind words. Choosing by listening aint really a choice issue for me - it is all I have to go by!!

As for the speed of the last octave do you mean the last octave that the amps/speakers play or the actual last octave?

If you mean the actual last octave then that is something I will not experience for 2 reasons:

1. The speakers only go down to 50 Hz (and then with a big maybe).

2. Everything below 50 Hz (and a bit above) is pumped out to the REL Strata 3 sub which has its own in-built amp.

Using the above I get what I consider to be an approximation of bi-amping (in effect rather than in actuality). In order for this to work I had to find a musical sub - the REL was the only one I found (although I never got to play with SVS which some members of this board adore).

I am thinking that even if the SET amp proves weaker in the bass department I will be able to adjust the sub accordingly and mask its weaknesses such as they may be.

Therefore the introduction of the SET amp and its success or otherwise will be determined by 3 primary factors other than pure musicality.

1. The hnadling of the highs

2. The Handling of the mids

3. The effect on soundstage and image.

As far as I can see from reading the posts of others who have already moved to set amplification these are the 3 areas that SET is supposed to excel in.

Hopefully I will find out at the end of the month.

[mobile homeless]

First and foremost, I think I have stressed using your own two ears as a judge for sound in every post almost highlighting it. It is what I do as well... surely more than basing judgment on spes or design.

That having been said, you can educate yourself on all this and the more you become hands on, the more you learn and understand. You should be able to begin placing thy ears and skull contents together to further this learning process.

Then next time, you dont have to jump through the exact same hoops. Of course, some hoops look very nice a second time around...

kh

[maxg]

Yes Kelly - you have indeed stressed the ear as the primary means of selecting all things audio, I never said you didn't.

I can sense the disapproval in your tone, however, for the fact that I have not taken the time to find out how all this stuff actually works. You are probably right that I would get more out of this hobby if I understood more of the technicalities but for me the whole electronics issue is so subservient to the actual listening to music thing I just find it gets in the way.

I dont mind looking at amps in the company of an expert who can explain what the verious bits do but short of building up my own collection of electronic parts I dont see that getting me to the point where I can discuss the relative sonic merits of one capacitor over another.

I suppose setting up a cartridge probably isnt that hard - if you have the proper tools (which I never do for any job). The idea of me attacking a cartridge with my swiss army knife doesnt inspire confidence somehow.

Better to let experts do it - show me in the process, fine, but keep my thumbs (all 10 of them) well away from delicate equipment.

[Erik Mandaville]

Hi again, Max:

I very much agree with what you've heard about the fortes' of SET designs. They really do incredibly well with high and mid-range frequency information, and the midrange composes the greatest bulk of recorded material. I'm jealous of your REL sub! I've heard that they are very, very musical subwoofers, most of which to me sound like one-note thumping. If your main speakers go down to 50 cycles, I must say that in my opinion that is nothing, as is sometimes said, 'to sneeze at.' Actually, I've never found myself sneezing or prone to any other allergic reactions simply by not finding a particular issue of much importance! A good solid 50 Hz can sound impressive! Of course, I don't use my system (or any system, for that matter) for home theater, and actually wish my speakers and amps were not the either side of our TV. It just happens to be a design and space constraint. I never have the TV on when listening to music, or vis-versa, of course.

Max: Don't short change yourself! You may be surprised at what you are able to do as far as DIY electronics. It is honestly great fun, and it can teach you a great deal about the way your system behaves. Have you thought of maybe building a simple kit? check out the Bottlehead forum (you can get there via a link on the AA asylum. Sorry, I can't remember the URL offhand. There is an extremely good preamp kit (which I built my own version of -- using a tube rectifier...gee this sounds familiar!)for just over $100. It is a direct-connected (first half of a dual triode to the second half --- without using a coupling capacitor), cathode follower, that has a very low output impedance. It is an outstanding performer for the money, and the instructions are very easy to follow. You could work on it a little be each evening or on the weekend. I would be happy to help with anything you might have problems with -- I know this preamp's schematic virtually by heart. An added bonus, is that the people on the Bottlehead forum (unlike another one I'll keep to myself) are always willing to help.

Think about it! It's not only a great education, you will get a very capable, high performing line-stage (no phono section) when you're done.

I look forward to hearing what you have to say about your new amplifier -- it must be exciting waiting for it to be completed. By the way, it's possible to also get really nice SET amp kits!

Erik

[maxg]

Erik,

I think you have me confused with someone else!!!

Well maybe I would be capable of putting an amp together for all I know - but I have never attempted anything as grand as that (remember - I got a man in to adjust the VTA and whatnot on my TT!!!)

On the other hand I am the proud owner of an almost mint condition soldering iron (used once) and some audiophile solder!!

[Erik Mandaville]

Max:

I'm a teacher, and have worked with students of every age level and experience -- I should add that I teach art. If you knew how many times I have heard 'I can't do it!' from my students, you would understand why I know you would be abel to construct a kit preamplifier. It's easier than setting VTA, JFK, LBJ, or any 3-letter combination we can think of!

The main thing is that you want to try -- which maybe you're not into right now. So it doesn't matter! Enjoy what you like doing, and forget about it for now.

Take care and regards,

Erik