A great sub for the money!!

[Steve Phillips]

First off let me say this;I love Klipsch and will for ever,but they need to get there sub line together.I've heard the new RSW-15 and it's great.It's great just like it is.Very musical with it's passive radiator.Ported subs are great for HT,but I like sealed subs for music and HT.

I'll get to the point;I rebuilt an HT for a friend of mine last night.I told him,to me,the best choice for what he wanted was a Bag End Infra-18 powered sub.

What a monster.If any of you need something that will"keep up"with your Klipsch(any of them)Try this $1500 sub.

His HT has KSP-400 mains and I set the subs in them so they will just blend as full range speakers.These are great speakers and the bass was excellent,but now they are even better.The Bag End will do damage to what ever you don't have glued down.

Come on Klipsch,help us out here,build us an affordable sub that will do anything we want it to.

The new sub would be great.I'd love to have one.

Agian,let me say I'm not bashing Klipsch,I love them and Paul,but the new Klipsch needs to do some really serious subs.

This is just my opinion and not meant to start any trouble.

[boa12]

steve, went to their site - 400 watts rms.

vs the new rsw's 1000 watts - guess that shows what the larger box/driver(vs. rsw) & a lack of high gain servo(vs velodyne hgs)

can do!

[Steve Phillips]

Can't argue about horse power,but it's how it's used that counts..Heard or felt one?2 Bags for the price of one 18"Vel.?

I'd love to have an 18"Velodyne,but not at $3000.

Wide Screen review liked it enough to rate way up on it's list.

Not arguing,just my opinion.

[boa12]

quote:

---

Can't argue about horse power,but it's how it's used that counts.

---

steve, i totally agree w/ that (wasn't belittling the bag - sorry if it came across that way. i was wondering out loud i guess).

i haven't heard that bag end or the rsw-15. since u have, just guessing that the bag-end apparently does it w/ less power by how they do the rest - 18" vs 15" cone, bigger box(?), sealed vs raditor, design, etc.

as far as your mentioned bag end vs the Velo HGS-18, the actual price difference considering the discounted prices should be around $1k. i agree there too that's significant & you could buy (almost) 2 of those bags for the price of 1 vel 18.

but just to add & put in a defense for the ole Velo HGS-18 , it's apples (bass quantity) and oranges (bass quality). you could stack up numerous bag-ends or svs against the HGS-18, but all that'll do is increase the bass quantity. the hgs will still have better bass quality (low distortion, pitch definition, etc.). that's what the high gain servo technology & concurrent higher price is there for. vel really puts an emphasis on bass quality. I've been told Larry Greenhill w/ stereophile uses the HGS-18 as his listening room reference sub. he must still be testing w/ music

i think the only sub to put w/ my HGS-18 is another HGS-18. but not until I get an auditorium. my ideal would be to possibly put 2 of those bag end or svs in the other room where the rf-3 & rc-3 are now residing.

have both an HT room & a music room.

------------------

Klipsch KLF-30 (front), KLF-C7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnect & Monster Z-12 cable

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Sony DVP-C650D cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Technics direct drive turntable

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

rock on!

[TVodhanel]

>>>but just to add & put in a defense for the ole Velo HGS-18 , it's apples (bass quantity) and oranges (bass quality). you could stack up numerous bag-ends or svs against the HGS-18, but all that'll do is increase the bass quantity. the hgs will still have better bass quality (low distortion, pitch definition, etc.)<<<

I disagree here.

If I stacked up a $3000 retail SVS sytem against the $3000 retail HGS18...the hgs18 would be left for dead...including distortion comparisons.

You'd be able to get 4 16-46s/dual 700w amps,AND a 31 band EQ to help tame various room peaks from SVS. We'd just kill the HGS18 head-head here....all the way down to 15-17hz or so.

as far as *pitch* goes...there's one hell of a lot of eletronics the bass is going through in the hgs18 before it gets to the cone...I'd put my money on a more pure path for the signal myself.

-------

Infra?

forget about it,

sealed enclosure,4mm of clean driver excursion down low, resonant freq of about 70hz for the whole shabang...so the *elf* stuff starts EQing the bag at 12dB/octave at 70hz. By 20-25hz, you're looking at 15-18dB of *EQ* needed just to remain flat. Congrats--you just castrated 390w of the 400w amp for the EQ.

the Infra IS a monster >34-35hz..it's Ok down to about 29-31hz...but in the first octave...it's barely AVG.

the pw2200 and hsu VTF-2 are also great woofs to consider.

TV

[boa12]

quote:

---

If I stacked up a $3000 retail SVS sytem against the $3000 retail

---

using retail dealer msrp vs manufacturer direct pricing (which i very much commend svs for) is apples & oranges. but any reasonable retail dealer will sell for far less than msrp.

You'd be able to get 4 16-46s/dual 700w amps,AND a 31 band EQ to help

tame various room peaks from SVS. We'd just kill the HGS18 head-head

here....all the way down to 15-17hz or so.

good point on a total $ basis. but take $800

off the msrp & give me your eq & some change that then being equal, are you saying the

four svs/dual amps & eq would leave the HGS-18/eq dead (or maybe alive) in room distortion? for spl, I have no dispute on that by a long shot.

but an equalizer is moot in the point i was trying to make - purely # of subs & thd/pitch definition. given that, everything equal, more subs/amps are not going to improve the thd or pitch definition of the subs themselves.

quote:

---

as far as *pitch* goes...there's one hell of a lot of eletronics

---

greenhill mentioned the accelerometer & limiter but didn't dwell on them in any negative way. they certainly don't increase thd or harm pitch definition. people can have their preferences, but it also depends how well the electronics work.

------------------

Klipsch KLF-30 (front), KLF-C7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnect & Monster Z-12 cable

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Sony DVP-C650D cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Technics direct drive turntable

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

rock on!

[TVodhanel]

>>>using retail dealer msrp vs manufacturer direct pricing (which i very much commend svs for) is apples & oranges. but any reasonable retail dealer will sell for far less than msrp.<<<

Not in my area---NE ohio. Find me a authorized VEL dealer within 30-40 miles that will take more than 10% off list.

BTW---SVS also has a habit of offering 10% off multiple packages deals.

Assume you get 25% off list for the HGS18---$2400. Add state tax, back up to $2500ish in the majority of cases.

dual 16-46/700w amp packages = $2740. -10% =$2466. So it's about even price wise again.

****You'd be able to get 4 16-46s/dual 700w amps,AND a 31 band EQ to help

tame various room peaks from SVS. We'd just kill the HGS18 head-head

here....all the way down to 15-17hz or so.***

>>>...are you saying the

four svs/dual amps & eq would leave the HGS-18/eq dead (or maybe alive) in room distortion?<<<

yes, for any given SPL we'd have comparable thd levels. Then as the hsg18 clamped down on your dynamics...the 4 SVs would still be coasting along.

in other words...using actual source material(DVDs for example)...when the hgs18 hit the wall...you could still push the SVs approx 6-9dB louder before there'd be any chance of the THD rising >10%. if someone tells you they can discern 10%thd from 5%thd during a reference level film transient...I'd be extremely skeptical.

When the HGS18 punks out with 4% thd...say 105dB/20hz in a typical room. the four 16-46's would probably have LESS than 4% then at that same level. Remember, that's the same as me saying a single 16-46 would have about the same thd when played back 12dB less than the HGS18(93dB/20hz in this example). Like I said, the SVs would be coasting.

>>>...purely # of subs & thd/pitch definition. given that, everything equal, more subs/amps are not going to improve the thd or pitch definition of the subs themselves...<<<

Adding subs reduces THD at a given volume level.

You reduce the strain on each sub, so thd drops accordingly.

*pitch* definition is one of those subjective things--- like saying I think my subwoofer looks better.

Some folks love the sound of the VELs, some don't. Hardesty didn't think much of the HGS12 when he reviewed it for WSR...he thought it was extremely AVG for *pitch/musicality*. Sometimes trying to squeeze out a lot of low bass from a small box leads to compromises manufacturers don't want to talk about.

TV

[boa12]

tv, i did get the hgs-18 at about 35% off msrp, new, authorized local dealer, no big haggling. may not be the norm & yes sales tax added. i wouldn't pay anything over less 25% though - cost is a factor. even for great quality bass

i agree pitch definition, trans. response are pretty subjective & vary by listener. though

they are sound parameters, as opposed to cabinet appearance.

in the 1 sub vs 4 comparison, the hgs will lose distortion advantage at an increasing rate as you increase spl. but the opposite should be true when you decrease spl

to moderate listening levels (like maybe 85db .

just pointing out, this is a possibility when listening to detailed music where distortion levels can be heard. & in this case turning the music down to a level where the hgs thd is say 1%, where would the distortion levels of the svs be?

all i'm saying is there is some advantage to the high gain servo & the price for the technology. just trying to say spl isn't all that matters w/ subs. well w/ music anyway. & then there's also the extension. greenhill

got solid output below 14hz with an fsr-18.

i can't/won't argue against spl. from everything i've seen & heard, the svs combo for the same cost of an HGS-18 is superior when both spl & distortion are taken into account. still need to listen to em first.

[TVodhanel]

>>>the hgs will lose distortion advantage at an increasing rate as you increase spl. but the opposite should be true when you decrease spl

to moderate listening levels (like maybe 85db .

just pointing out, this is a possibility when listening to detailed music where distortion levels can be heard. & in this case turning the music down to a level where the hgs thd is say 1%, where would the distortion levels of the svs be?<<<

1)you're never going to be able to discern 1% from 2% with program material,if that's what you're implying...then I disagree.

2)85dB from 4 16-46s/1400w?

that would be the same as 73dB from one 16-46.

You'd need a fraction of a watt to product that in a typical room. At a fraction watt input---the SV would have inaudible amounts of *thd*. Not sure if it would be 0.5%,0.9% or 1.5% really. Once you get <10%...it's going to be nearly impossible to hear with program amterial. Once you get <5%, for get about it.

3)once the *hgs* series begins to approach it's excursion limits---it ALTERs the input signal so that the thd remain very low(servo circuitry).

so you're trading off one form of distortion for another.

TV

[boa12]

the 85db was just an extreme to bring it down to a starting point where the HGS can compete against 4 subs on the basis of thd. there it appears the hgs does do better at least to some point of overload. pitch definition & extension aren't supplemented by multiplying subs. ok, i can live w/ that.

so the bag ends really suck?

btw, here's what i think on pitch definition that may relate. bose said their 901 w/ it's like 9 5in. drivers & design was the equivalent of a 36" woofer. but for tight, clean bass from say a kick drum, a good ole single 15" woofer in my cornwall always sounded a lot better to me.

thump on!

[Steve Phillips]

Hey boa,was just messin with ya way up at the top.Wish I could get my hands on an 18"Velodyne.We could get technical for a month,but still love the Bag End.A friend of mine has 2 unpowered 18's in his HT with an ELF and QSC 1000 watt amp.They are not in the corners,they are between a K-Horn and La Scala center.Room is about 24 X 17 and they can pound your chest,love bass you can feel.

Everyone likes what they have and I still love my 2 12"in 2.5 cu.in.boxes driven w/400 watts per.Even when power was only 200X2 they did the job.When the K-horns came home,the subs just needed more power.And yes they do keep up with the Horns very well.Have done Super Speedway at 125dB with no lack of bass or any hint of distortion.

Anyway I didn't start this post to caues any"my toys are better than your toys",just making a statement........

boa,just keep loven that Velodyne and I'll keep dreamin of a Bag End or 2.

I'm also wanting a pair of Cornwalls,some day.I would love to have that pair of '72's on ebay.I have found a pair of '96 Heresy's and am listening and enjoying them as I type this.Bed room toons.The 2 SW 8 II's in here do one heck of a job for a 21X13 room.

Even though the SW's are 65 watts rms(100 peak)and only do 99 dB max,they have very nice bass for music and HT and it's just my bed room.

[boa12]

ya steve, the bags or svs package are what i'm looking for w/ HT. that is - more raw output than what I think I currently gots.

why does this thread seem like dejavu?

looks like i'd definitely need a better quality, higher current/power amp than what I have for the bags though.

but i've started that 2nd system (see below).

stay bad brother.

------------------

Klipsch KLF-30 (front), KLF-C7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnect & Monster Z-12 cable

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Sony DVP-C650D cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Technics direct drive turntable

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

2nd room:

Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear)

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage '75)

Technics 5-disk cd player

Sega Genesis game player

Sub: None

rock on!

[Steve Phillips]

Ya got all ya need man.Don't change out the Vel.18.I would love to have the one you have.

Started this post to let others know about a very good sub for the money.

Anyone reading this post;check out a Bag End,don't worry with the specs unless that's what you need to read or hear from someone telling you about what they are selling.Having one in your own living room is far from it being in the dealer ship or from someone teelling their stuff is the best.

For years I've been amazed by what even a small Velodyin can do and have wanted one.Very musical and very hard hitting for movies.Bag End is also a very impressive sub.

SVS,never heard or felt one.

Tv,Wide Screen review liked the Bag and they do that stuff for a living.Soon as I get to work Tuesday I'll see what they had to say about SVS.Sure I know they are just a mag.and what do they know,after all it's just their opinion.I've got one,just like I have an a**hole.When I started this post,it was just to point out a fine sub that I don't see here any,not that it was the **** or anything like that.Just that it was out there and some might want to look into it.Not better,not the daddy,just a very nice sub for $1,500.Heck the 2 18"ported JBL subs at CES in the dts theater blew the hell out of anything else there.Just my opinion.

One thing nice about a sub doing it's thing with just 400 watts,at lest I don't need a sub power station next door to keep it going.

To each his own,I'm not bashing anything here or anyone,just giving my opinion.

boa,nice start on the secound system.My bed room HT is finaly done and it sounds great doing 2 channel music or HT.

------------------

Main HT:'77 Klipschorns,'75 Heresy center,modified with,K-Horn sqauwker & AA network.

KSP-S6 at sides 2 KSP-S6's rear.

Denon AVR-3801

2 Denon POA-2800 200X2

1 driving the Horns

1 driving the bi-wired Heresy center.

2 DIY 12"4ohm subs,Carver A500x 400 watts per ch.feed.

1 12" powered sub(behind the couch)feed from the surrounds pre-outs.

Sony DVP-C650D.Dish Echostar 4700 w/DD

JVC S7600U S-VHS

Pioneer CDL-D501 laser

Music in "Direct"only!

DH Labs T-14 speaker wire to the front 3.

Bed room HT:KSB 2.1 mains,SC-1,SS-1's,2 SW 8 II subs.

2 Heresy's for music.

Denon AVR-2800,Dishnetwork,Sony SLV-975HF VCR.

[boa12]

hey steve for a bedroom music sub, u could get an HGS-10 or 12(like Tom Nousaine has in his bedroom(seriously))

------------------

Klipsch KLF-30 (front), KLF-C7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnect & Monster Z-12 cable

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Sony DVP-C650D cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Technics direct drive turntable

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

2nd room:

Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear)

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage '75)

Technics 5-disk cd player

Sega Genesis game player

Sub: None

rock on!

[TVodhanel]

here's an example of what I'm talking about---Keele data from AUDIO.

HGS12(he never measured the 15/18).

20hz = 95-96dB/3%thd.

TN20

20hz =95dB/about 5%thd.

the TN20 at 83dB(= to 95dB if you had four all in the same corner)..20hz/83dB..about 1-2% thd.

just for comparison...the Infra had

>25%thd as it neared 20hz/95dB. So---the little hgs12 walks all over the INFRA down low...so the HGS18 would completely smoke it.

-------------------------

>>>We could get technical for a month,but still love the Bag End.A friend of mine has 2 unpowered 18's in his HT with an ELF and QSC 1000 watt amp.They are not in the corners,they are between a K-Horn and La Scala center.Room is about 24 X 17 and they can pound your chest,love bass you can feel.

Everyone likes what they have and I still love my 2 12"in 2.5 cu.in.boxes driven w/400 watts per.Even when power was only 200X2 they did the job.When the K-horns came home,the subs just needed more power.And yes they do keep up with the Horns very well.Have done Super Speedway at 125dB with no lack of bass or any hint of distortion.<<<

Well, there's 2 completely independent reviews that include documented objective eprformance data that indicates...it would take about 32 of the Infras to hit 125dBs/20hz(super speedway actually extends well below 20hz).

Tom Nousaine reviewed the woof for AUDIO a while back, and then Don Keele reviewed it for AUDIO again a few years later.

In neither review did the Infra do anything impressive in the first octave.

>>>Ya got all ya need man.Don't change out the Vel.18.I would love to have the one you have.

Started this post to let others know about a very good sub for the money.

Anyone reading this post;check out a Bag End,don't worry with the specs unless that's what you need to read or hear from someone telling you about what they are selling.<<<

I dont think anyone has mentioned the *specs* at all? I've cited various (published) data that indicates the INFRA is a barely average performer in the first octave. I've also explained why that is(high resonant freq,massive EQing,very average driver,ect).

>>>Having one in your own living room is far from it being in the dealer ship or from someone teelling their stuff is the best.<<<

I owned an Infra for a few months about 3-4 years ago...I was impressed with it's >30hz output, and saddened I paid >$1100 for a subwoofer that sounded so poorly <30hz.

>>>For years I've been amazed by what even a small Velodyin can do and have wanted one.Very musical and very hard hitting for movies.Bag End is also a very impressive sub.

SVS,never heard or felt one.

Tv,Wide Screen review liked the Bag and they do that stuff for a living.<<<

They also said the HGS12 was rather POOR for musical reproduction...I guess all the HGS series is AVG on music now right? You seem to have a very selective approach when using WSR text to back up your POV?

>>>Soon as I get to work Tuesday I'll see what they had to say about SVS.<<<

I doubt they've even heard of SVS. But the guys who count have(Tom Nousaine for instance).

TV

[Spider124]

I think the 'guys who count' are the ones who have SVS subs.

Hell, you can't go a single day at the home theater forum without at least ONE post from a new SVS owner. I'd say at least 80% of the posts are simply extremely positive, and the other 20% also comment on the excellent customer service.

The only reason I haven't bought a pair is because I'd like to build my own sonosub(s) some day.

Charlie

[cybergeek]

great point spider! but we can't expect product/tech-oriented earthlings to mention that.

------------------

live long & prosper

[BLOOMIS914]

TV- What chapter in Super Speedway can I find bass info. below 20Hz??? Please be specific, I have that DVD and would like to use that portion for the Demo for friends.

Thanks

[BLOOMIS914]

TV- What chapter in Super Speedway can I find bass info. below 20Hz??? Please be specific, I have that DVD and would like to use that portion for the Demo for friends.

Thanks