Let's talk subwoofers and the need for them.

[Audible Nectar]

I am certainly in the "yes" camp when it comes to subwoofers, especially in HT. Like anything else, there's a right way, and a wrong way.

The difficulty (especially with Heritage Klipsch) is finding a subwoofer that is of the same quality as the Heritage. Cheap subbage will muddy the sound, good subs will extend the lows as to make them sonically invisible - awesome bass that sounds like it comes from the mains. You want subs that are tight, efficient, and have high output - certainly a combo that doesn't come cheap.

While many can do without subs for 2 channel (especially those with Khorns), subs are mandatory for HT - in fact, it is my belief that your HT is only as good as your subs. Good subs improve the system, poor subs bring it down. A properly selected subwoofer will add to the 2 channel experience as well - if it's tight enough for music and has high efficiency and output, it will most certainly add to the HT experience.

If your sub sounds poor in 2 channel, you bought the wrong sub, or have set it up improperly. Good music subs will sound good in HT, but not always the other way around. So I audition subwoofers as a 2 channel entity first, then put it through the HT paces. If it passes both, it becomes a candidate.

Another benefit to subwoofers is that the mains (and their associated amplifiers) are relieved of the burden of reproducing the lowest bass. Bass takes lots of power, which is not always necessary for the Klipsch mains. This gives the owner the option of using those sweet sounding tube or class A SS amplifiers, for instance - while selecting the proper solid state brawn necessary to run the subs. If you take away the low bass burden from the mains and their amplifiers, you can choose sweeter amps for the highs, where it is most preferable, without sacrificing the impact good subs provide.

[Klewless]

Three subs,

I find the post most interesting. I have a single sub running with LaScalas and would not want to be without it. I have also run this sub with a pair of homebuilt K-horns and felt it also added to the enjoyment of (mostly) pipe organ music.

From what I have read, I am beginning to lean toward 3 subs.

1. For home theater effects (except that I don't have a HT!)

2. One for each main speaker

The reason for 1) is that movie effects are not the same as music bass

The reason for 2) is that multiple subs do not necessarily give more bass but does help fill in the room resonance gaps. A smoother result.

Thanks for listening.

jp

[j-malotky]

John P

One thing to remember when running multiple subs is that it is very easy to have frequency cancilation with multiple subs in multiple locations since the lower the frequency has a longer wavelength.

That is one reason people put there subs next to each other in the same corner.

JM

[cornwaller]

Lynnm,

..."Who's on first?"

I may be too analytical for my own good. I think I have found the answer to all our subwoofer woes:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewItem&item=1946382344

'ya think?

Cornwaller

[Audible Nectar]

WHOA!

[DRBILL]

It is not a bad story. As PWK was known to say, "To each his'n!" You sound like the sort of disciplined person whose gain controls don't go up to "11"!

FATHER BILL+

[HornEd]

As someone with eight Legends in his home theater and a separate Klipschorn based Heritage sound system... and a dozen or so subwoofers, I guess it is about time I joined this fray.

No question about subwoofers and HT... Dolby Digital records sounds on DVD's that require the capacity to hit 121.5 dB at 20 Hz to hear... that's their reference level for professional theaters... and not a lot make the grade... but my home theater does... and a quality subwoofer system will transparently add the lows where they ought to be... to the enhancement of the story line... instead of a warped thud with ear-bleading consequences. Most of the bottom scraping bass that accompanies an explosion, for example, occurs for just a fraction of a second... to quick for ear damage... but adds a measure of realism that brings a movie watcher far deeper into the movie watching experience. Of course, having six or seven timbre matched speakers helps the sub experience dramatically as an "adequate" sub adds the below 80 Hz realism... but it seems to be coming from the direction of the surround sound speaker(s) that is(are) broadcasting the related sounds above 80 Hz. It is an uncanny experience that really grabs folks who have never before had the experience.

I am pretty much in sync with LynnM on the Klipschorn front. Paul Klipsch designed the Klipschorn to produce the most meaningful range of orchestral sound... approximately 35 Hz to 20,000 Hz with the "authority" of a robust SPL. While kettle drums and a few other instruments can go lower... most of what happens falls into PWK's target range. Much of my music is heard in the way PWK liked his... a pair of Klipschorns about twenty-feet apart with a Belle in the middle... that's the three channel stereo mode cooked up by Bell Labs half a century ago... and used by PWK until the day he died. Unless a musical program has a bottom scraping pipe organ and the music to exercise it... or some nouveau mod clankity clunk... I usually do not activate the subwoofer system in the music room. If the musical track was cut for multi-speakers, I turn on the Cornwalls/Academy rear array.

I am suspicious of subwoofers that supply more "punch" than a naturally occuring kick-drum would to folks sitting in the second row. While that take-in-the-cut feel is worthwhile reference... it is not my idea of a good time as the night wears on. When I reviewed the RSW-15 with the Klipschorns, it seemed to deliver more punch with less bottom than I preferred... but then again... it's all a matter of taste... and that is something beyond my level of self-assurance for which few can account.

I am currently dismantling my sound systems and will rebuild them in the new year. For the moment, my plan is to build a free-standing building at my private club in the Santa Cruz Mountains and install an upgraded version of my home theater in it so that my fellow club members and visitors can enjoy progressive scan big screen video and the sound of Klipsch for great movies and sports events. The Heritage sound system will be built into a new home later in the year... hopefully in a design that is an extention of the correspondence I have had with my hero, Q-man. I have acquired a second set of walnut KHorns and will probably settle for either six K-horn surround system with a pair of Belle's for Front Effects... or maybe use the four K-horns in a Rear Array and put three (Q-Man<'s favorite Klipsch-licensed) University Classics into the Front Array.
As many of you know, the twin SVS Ultras (stacked bottom to bottom making a seven foot subwoofer tower) remains my favorite subwoofer configuration. By stacking the units and placing them in good corner, I get the most natural and deepest bass with the smallest footprint... and for far less money than anything I've tried that begins to compare for HT or music... at least IMHO. By stacking the units, the ports vent to the floor and the ceiling... while the speakers in the middle fire against their baseplates and bounce of the walls without the cancellation that often occurs when two great subs are separated. And, rigged this way, they can actually exceed the Dolby Reference Level!

I am sorry that Gil and I didn't connect until his trip to S.F. was over... it would have been nice to have him experience the Subwoofer Tower in both the HT and music Klipsch-based configurations. Unfortunately, by the time dndphishin was headed for the Golden Gate, the systems were on a truck headed South. It would have been nice to have one of the more respected Forum folks lend an ear to these systems before they were dismantled. It's a good thing there's a Klipsch system in the motorhome to tide me over... but it will take more than a little Synergy to whet my appetite for mainstream Klipsch satisfaction!

In short, when it comes to subwoofers... I prefer ones that produce the transparent extention of my beloved Klipsch woofers at an SPL that contributes more to realizm than kick-you-in-the-gut electronically shaped sound found in pro-subs designed for clubs where partygoers need a big whump to get the beat through a potentially mind-altered haze. -HornEd

[Audible Nectar]

"Unfortunately, by the time dndphishin was headed for the Golden Gate, the systems were on a truck headed South."

But alas, HornEd, this is my third trip to the bay area, and I'm certain that it won't be my last. Someday, our paths will cross - a day that I anxiously await.

"All good things in all good time"

And with that, I'm outta here for 2002. See ya on the cyberside in 2003, and have a happy new year!