Moit Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 Need Receiver advice. I am typically a fly on the forum wall, but this time my question is particular to my current, and/or future setup. The system in question is an old Pioneer SX-1010, Sony X222ES CD player, and KG4s. The receiver is having problems with the left channel, I have fixed/cleaned this giant many times, I am looking to retire it this time for something newer and smaller. Question 1: I am running speakers A and B both on the right channel only; I also switched it to mono. This is temporary until I get a replacement. Is this going to hurt the Receiver? I will keep it, and may want to have it cleaned and repaired in the future, and I do not want to cause it any harm. Question 2: My main receiver is a Harman Kardon AVR 25II. I am familiar with HK, and am thinking of purchasing a used similar unit from e-bay. Any other recommendations, the sound quality from the SX1010 will be hard to replace, and I really like the high current amplification of HK. Question 3: What is the difference between HK AVR 25 and the AVR 25II? My budget is between $80.00 to $120.00. Any advice from this amazing forum would be greatly appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougdrake Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Check the impedance rating on the back of the KG4s, where the binding posts are. The nominal impedance on those is around 6 ohms, I believe. That means you are running 3 ohms on the receiver when you have 2 speakers hooked to the same channel (both on right). That might be a bit of a load for that receiver, and could be stressing it a bit. I'd suggest wiring the speakers in series if you can, rather than parallel as they are now, to double the impedance rather than halve it. You might find the venerable HK430, of which HDBR Builder has waxed poetic on many occasions, to be a nice unit as a replacement for the ol' Pioneer. DD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 The H/K 430 remains relatively inexpensive and is one of those S/S accidents of design that performs exceedingly well....and if you give one a listen...you will understand what I mean...and not have ANY misgivings about taking your old Pioneer out of the audio shelf. Justin, Josh, and Heresy2guy all have recently bought this model and have listening experiences with it through Klipsch Heresys...and Rick Tate has listening experiences with this model through both Heresys and LaScalas, and these purchasers of this model can vouch for it...you don't just have to blindly trust in MY opinion! LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heresy2guy Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Yeah, like I said many times, the H/K 430's the best bang for your buck and moreover, sounds absolutely wonderful on my Heresy IIs. I can't comment on the KG4s, since I think they're a two way design if I can recall, with two woofers in front (along with a passive radiator in back) and one high frequency horn. The H/K 430 is a bass monster, no doubt about that - it gives my Heresys bass I never knew existed on them. The highs and mids are bright too, the way I like 'em, and I would guess the highs would sparkle on the KG4s due to the horns, but I wonder how the mids would sound due to the cone drivers? Or perhaps this is irrelevant because the single horn delivers the mids AND highs? Hmmmm....HDBRbuilder could probably comment better on this but one thing's for sure, if you've got about 60 to 100 bucks to spend then you can sure buy one (H/K 430) on Ebay and try it out - it's a rather inexpensive test, and you'll most likely be surprised by the sound. I sure was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moit Posted January 22, 2003 Author Share Posted January 22, 2003 dougdrake - HDBRbuilder - & heresy2guy, Thank you for your response, I am looking at a few HK 430's on e-bay. I can't wait to see how it performs, I will give a HK 430/KG4's update. I have RF7's in the main room, may give them a run on the 430 as well. I love this forum! Thanks Again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heresy2guy Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 No problem Moit. If you happen to get one, by all means hook it up to the RF7s as well as the KG4s and let us know what you think. Have fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moit Posted February 22, 2003 Author Share Posted February 22, 2003 Just an update to the great advice I received about a month ago. The HK430 is in the house, cleaned, and powering my old KG4's like a champ. It also has a very high WAF approval. Small - Loud - and easy to operate, especially compared to the Pioneer SX-1010. heresy2guy - The KG4's do lack the incredible mid-range that us Klipsch freaks demand. They were great for college, and like many other KG4 owners, I just will never part with them. HDBRbuilder - Thanks for recommending such a great receiver, and your cleaning recommendations were also key. dougdrake - Your advice probably saved the SX-1010 for a future resurrection. Thanks Again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 Moit, Glad you like it...How much did it end up costing you? Just wondered. Hard to believe it is only rated at 25 wpc, isn't it? LOL! As long as you keep the volume control below the 2 o'clock position you should be very happy with it....it should never clip/distort below that point...and should run cool to just slightly warm! For my listening I have found that I seldom want the volume control to even get to high noon!! Just too damned loud on my Heresys!! As for its sonic performance...how do you rate it compared to your old Pioneer? Meaning...backround noise or lack thereof, clarity, detail, warmth, overall response...treble, bass, etc...etc.? Just wondered. It would also be interesting (to me, at least...LOL!) to see comments on the 430 powering your other Klipsch speakers! Hint, hint! Enjoy! P.S. If you want to and have the ability to download and print these out(you will need adobe acrobat reader)...here are the owner's manual and technical manual web addresses for the H/K 430 model (no sense buying these on ebay when you can print them out for free!): Owner's Manual: http://manuals.harman.com/HK/Owner%27s%20Manual/430om.pdf Service Manual: http://manuals.harman.com/hk/Service%20Manual/hk430%20sm.pdf There is also a relatively new website that is devoted solely to the old twin-powered H/K receivers if you are interested: http://www3.sympatico.ca/dan300/hk/ When you get there, just click on the "power switch" on the receiver in the pic, and it opens up for you! I am sure Dan would welcome your comments on the 430 under its section there. Again...enjoy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill H. Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 I am intrigued! Are there any pictures of a HK 430? i HAVE looked all over the web, and can't find any. Can someone explain is this an amp or receiver tube or solid state? Thanks Bill wm12324@hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 WM12324, Well...scroll up and copy and paste the address for that H/K website (I posted today in this thread) into your server, then go have a look...LOL! It is an old solid-state receiver that entered the Harman/Kardon line-up in 1976....and remained in production for a couple of years. Conservatively rated at 25 watts per channel. It is twin-powered, which means it has a separate power supply for each of its two channels and doesn't bog down for lack of power as the musical passages get more complex....it can easily provide the power peaks for them! They originally sold new for around 325 bucks in 1976 dollars...and were the second best selling item in the H/K lineup while in production (the 330 receiver model was the biggest seller, but it was the bottom-of-the-line at that time and wasn't twin-powered)...they were well-built and pretty "bullet-proof", so there are alot of em still around!! They are simple...not alot of bells and whistles...but that is bound to be part of why they sound so well, too! They also have a nice tuner section that can hold its own with most of em available today. That entire H/K "X"30 series are nice units...especially the twin-powered models...the 430 is the "smallest" of the twin-powered bunch, power-wise...but it does just fine with Klipsch speakers...especially those from the "heritage" series....from what I know and others have found out, anyway! Out of this series, the 430 and 730 are my favorites...and they both entered the line-up in 1976...so they have alot of similarities. The 730 replaced the 630 model that year in the line-up...but the 930 model(which orignally entered the line-up a few years before with the 630 model, and whose tuner section is often touted as the best of the bunch) remained in the line-up until the end of that particular series sometime around 1978. 430, rated MINIMUM 25 wpc 630, rated MINIMUM 30 wpc 730, rated MINIMUM 35 wpc 930, rated MINIMUM 45 wpc In good condition, and after a good cleaning, these ALL normaly EXCEED their given minimum power ratings when tested! They were designed around the theory that human hearing is more amenable to square wave response performance figures...and they were also designed with the (at that time) H/K ultra wide-band frequency response "hallmark" included in the design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moit Posted February 22, 2003 Author Share Posted February 22, 2003 HDBRbuilder, Final cost was $97.00, e-bay bid + SH + Contact Cleaner + A can of Air. The unit is a 10, not a scratch, my wife thought is was new. Comparing it to the 110 wpc Pioneer this is hinting towards an apple and orange comparison. Background noise: HK wins - could have been the age of the Pioneer Clarity and Detail: Pioneer is incredible, it created mid-range in the KG4's you could feel. I also had more control over the treble (10kHz and 20kHz) and bass (50kHz and 100Hz). The bass controls always remained flat, for the KG4's I would slightly adjust the treble controls. RF7's everything flat, rattle the room. For only 25 wpc, the HK is very satisfying in these department. Warmth: HK wins At 21"X16"x7" and over 60lbs, the Pioneer is very cumbersome and almost impossibe to get WAF in any main living space. I found that my casual listening levels sit at about 9 o'clock for me, with the bass flat, and the treble at about 2 o'clock. The 430 with the KG4's creates a ton of bass. The temptation to run the 430 on the RF7's will overcome me. When it does, I will gladly give an update. Thanks for the other bits of info, I will definitely check out sympatico site. Moit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 Moit, Interesting review/comparison. Thanks! It seems your impression of the H/K's bass performance is about par with mine and others who have these...I have also noticed that it at least appears to give more bass bottom-end response in the deal, too. IF/when you hook the 430 up to the RF-7's, etc...please post commentary on that, too! With the KG-4's, instead of cranking up the treble to around 2 o'clock on the H/K 430 and leaving the bass "flat", try leaving the treble "flat" and backing-off the bass below "flat" a bit...then giving it a bit more volume...it may be more to your liking...just a thought, since you are only running the volume around 9 o'clock for your "normal listening", and that leaves you alot of volume-control "room to spare". Also, re: age of your Pioneer SX-1010 receiver vs. age of your H/K 430 receiver...FYI: Both the Pioneer AND the H/K 430 were made at the same time, give or take about one year...both listed in "Stereo Review's Stereo Directory & Buying Guide, 1976" New MSRP for Pioneer was listed at $699.95, whereas the H/K 430 MSRP was listed as $319.95. Pioneer SX-1010 was top of the line stereo receiver LISTED in this source in 1976 (published power rating 100 wpc), H/K 430 was top of line stereo receiver LISTED in same source (published power rating 25 wpc). NOTE: I'm not sure about Pioneer, but I know that the H/K 430 was NOT the top of the line stereo receiver offered by H/K that year...H/K had both the 730 (which also entered the line-up in 1976, displacing the 630 from the line-up that model year) and the 930 above it in the line-up offerings...all being sold at that time. This is no big deal, since most of these sources ALWAYS leave out some models that were actually being offered by manufacturers at the time they were published!! I have second source, too: "OFF DUTY Hi-Fi Annual '76"... but given prices are for military discounted prices in Europe through the PX system and/or the Audio Club system...so not in line with stateside MSRP prices: It also shows the Pioneer SX-1010 as the top of that line in stereo receivers...discounted cost to military "about $354"; H/K 430 is listed under 730 and above 330B in stereo receiver line-up...(with top of line being the 930 model, which is advertised in the source but NOT listed in the listings...for some odd reason...I know it was being sold there, though!)...discounted price of 430 "around $209". That is about the way things were back then over in Europe...the Japanese-branded-and-made models were generally always discounted alot more (compared to published US MSRP prices) than the items from other places...partly because they were shipped over on military-leased cargo ships directly from Japan! These H/K models, although actually made in Japan, were shipped from the US...which caused them to have a good bit less of a discount put on them, since H/K had already incurred the shipping cost FROM Japan TO the U.S.!! Pioneer SX-1010 was also listed in the Off Duty hi-fi annual '75...and was likely FIRST offered that model year. H/K 430 was NOT listed(since it and the 730 originally entered the line-up for 1976 model year). Pioneer, Sansui, Kenwood, etc...tended to do model make-overs every couple of years back in those days...so it is likely that the SX-1010 didn't stay in the line-up more than three years total! With the receiver "power wars" beginning around that time...I doubt the SX-1010 survived into the 1977 or 1978 model years...if it did, it was likely a made-over version with a new model name attached to it. Either way...it certainly didn't remain as their "flagship" stereo receiver for much longer than 1976, since the "power war" era brought Japanese-branded stereo receivers with MUCH more than ratings of just 100 wpc into the picture pretty quickly!!...and by the end of 1976, the "power war" era of stereo receivers had already begun! So...both of your receivers are basically the SAME AGE...but that is not withstanding the unknown variables of how many hours of usage they have each had over the years...or the environments in which they existed(ie., smoking or non-smoking, humidity, etc.), or the all-to-often overlooked "abuse factor" involved during their lifetimes! Suffice it to say, your H/K still survives to be able to provide listening enjoyment, and hopefully one day you can get your Pioneer back on its feet! From what I see, many people are quite enamored of those old Pioneer models, while the H/K's of this series are still being overlooked...which is a GOOD thing if you are wanting to pick one up "on the cheap", as you obviously have! As far as I am concerned, with your listing of the H/K's cost+shipping+cost of cleaning materials, etc...totalling UNDER $100...you have a pretty good deal going so far!...especially when taking into consideration that it is a "10" in appearance/condition!! Congratulations! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moit Posted February 22, 2003 Author Share Posted February 22, 2003 Wow! I had no clue the HK430 was that old. I am even more shocked at the condition of the one I landed. I got the 1010 from a friend of my father. He was the original owner, I have the original receipt from 1975, he paid $720.00 for it. It also came with a reprinted FM Guide, Feldman Lab Report, dated September 1974. I hope my previous post did read like I was dissapointed with the HK 430, I love it! If anything Pioneer should have learned how to put that power and sound into a more manageable unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 Moit, No...your post certainly seemed to indicate you (and the WAF) like the H/K 430...from what I gathered, anyway! LOL! Granted, it doesn't have the power and extra "bells and whistles" of your old Pioneer...BUT...that is a good bit of the reason it performs as well as it does, too! Often, LESS is better...especially when dealing with power sources for efficient horn-loaded speakers! Maybe you can post on the H/K's tuner section and/or its phono section, sometime....if you utilize either one of them much! Anyway...glad you "love it" so far! BTW...a listening comparison between your more-recently-made surround H/K AVR25II unit pushing two mains in stereo mode and the old H/K 430 pushing the same two mains would be interesting sometime too...to me, anyway! LOL! I have always liked the venerable old H/K 430 model...from the very beginning of its existence! Funny thing to me is that I initially brought up the subject of the old 430 on this forum back last summer. And there was alot of comment about the receiver, but few had actually ever heard one. But, since around late November, when Justin bought his...there has been a number of purchases of these by forum members...at least NINE of these!...besides the TWO that I already had!! That is ALOT of H/K 430's getting into the hands of forum members in a very short time!! Justin, Josh(Invidiosulus), Heresy2guy, Rick Tate(who currently has a SECOND one enroute...his first was purchased as a Christmas present to his son, but he liked it so much he wanted one for himself...LOL!), Fini(who has one but hasn't posted anything about hearing it yet...it needed a MAJOR good cleaning when he got it!), Mace (who has listened to his, but it was pretty dirty when he tried it out, and last weekend he was planning to give it a good cleaning and post his impressions afterwards), and now, Jim Cornell has one on the way! Add in yours...and that is nine...add my two...and that is ELEVEN...so far!! Justin laughingly told me a few weeks ago that I had "created some kind of monster"...maybe he is right!! LOL! Anyway...if I have indeed "created a monster", then as long as the "monster" is enjoyed by my fellow forum members, at a minimal cash outlay by them...it is OK, IMHO!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill H. Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 HDRB, Thanks for the excellent, consise review. I found a picture and unit at www.nbizz.com/soundclassic/listings/243.html Unit lists for 225.00 To much? Any recommendations about sound classics? Thanks again for all you help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 WM12324, If you want to pay that much for an old 430...that is up to you...but...most folks have been grabbing these up on Ebay for under 100 bucks the past year or so...in great condition...often for UNDER 40 bucks!! Almost every week there are a few showing up on Ebay. A number of 730's show up regularly, too...but normally go for more than the 430...still normally well under 150 bucks cost plus shipping, though! 930's don't show up often...but when they do they normally go for under 175 bucks cost plus shipping! Lots of all of these out there...so easy to just sit back and wait for a good deal on one...unless money is no object to you. The whole point in the 430 to begin with is its "bang for the buck" value...pretty hard to beat it when you can regularly grab up one in nice condition for under 100 bucks total investment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 sorry, i just saw this thread. the HK430 is my best buy of anything I have bought, including my HD600's which I got for $250 off retail from an authorized dealer! I use mine every day. I fyou need to connect a sub, just use the headphone output, works like a charm!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill H. Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3008516603 new hk 330c thanks............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 While the little H/K 330C is a good-sounding receiver, it is not twin-powered like its bigger brothers in that series. I still recommend either the 430 or the 730 because of that reason. Since they both have twin-powering, they are much more able to easily produce complex musical passages at higher volumes...and...to me, anyway...they sound much better than the 330C...when powering heritage series speakers. At first glance, the casual observer would likely not see much difference between the power ratings given for the 330C (18 wpc) and the 430 (25 wpc), but with the 430's twin-powering, there is actually a world of difference in its performance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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