ChrisK Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 The SoCal Horn Group meeting was a little different this time. The guest speaker, John Eargle (Grammy winning R.E., author, speaker designer, JBL Pro division consultant, concert pianist, etc., etc., etc.) delivered a very highly technical, nearly 3 hour presentation on the history and development of horn speakers. It was extremely enlightening. Especially the parts that didn't fly over my head at mach 2. Apparently Mr. Eargle at one time even worked at Klipsch until PWK told him (paraphrasing according to Dr. Edgar), "I've taught you all I have time for. You need to go and earn your Masters in EE". Whereupon he did so. Anyway, for me the more interesting parts of the meeting involved the informal exchanges that took place before and after the presentation. John Eargle's opinion on vinyl LP's was sort of surprising in that he didn't seem to care much for the sound quality. He mentioned "inner groove distortion", and low supplies of quality recordings available. He also told a story about a double blind comparison test he had been given where the results "approached being nothing more than random guessing". My feeling after listening to him is that sometimes, just maybe, these superhighly technical types want to see everything measured on a graph and forget to just empty their heads and listen. Andy was also in attendance and I'd be interested to hear his thoughts. I guess I was disappointed to hear such a well respected member of the music recording industry basically tell me that the widely perceived (in some circles) sonic superiority of vinyl LP's over digital media is a bunch of hooey. Well, then again, it didn't disappoint me so much as to keep me from going to a vinyl oriented swap meet at 5:00am the next morning with a flashlight in my hand...I must really be a sicko... Regards, Chris PS Craig, the 299 sounds pretty damn good! It'll be on it's way to you as soon as I recieve the NOS tubes I'm expecting. PSS Kelly, many thanks for recommending this unit. Now if I can only find a reasonably priced HF-81.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Don't be dissapointed that Eargle doesn't think what you think, maybe you should think about what he says. Given the man's vast accomplishments and knowledge one can't simply dismiss his views out of hand. One thing I've learned in 30 years with this hobby is to never underestimate the power of bullsh*t, especially the ability to bullsh*t yourself. Christ knows I've bullsh*tted myself on occasion, that being true I've no doubt of the abilities of others to bullsh*t themselves. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Chris, I was wondering if you were going to post something about this exchange LOL! TBrennan, right on! This was exactly what Mr. Eargle was pointing out with these tests. I think what I heard him say was that in a blind test, where you are comparing one system to another, or in this case, vinyl to CD, it was not too hard to pick what you thought you were hearing. The interesting point was that the subject was given a third choice, which would randomly be one of the original two, in other words, choices 1 and 2 would be the two items being compared. Choice 3 could be either 1 or 2 randomly controlled by a computer. That's when subjects' were able to guess what they were hearing at a rate which equalled chance. He did say the mind can play tricks on us, and this was an interesting illustration of this phenomenon. One of the other things he said about what you might be hearing (stronger bass, more punch, etc) was that it was the result of a boost of the lower end in the phono section (I think that's where he said it was). My feeling after listening to him is that sometimes, just maybe, these superhighly technical types want to see everything measured on a graph and forget to just empty their heads and listen. I think that the double blind tests are a very good way to try and get at what are we really hearing. I don't remember him referring to graphs, but to these tests. BTW, the inner groove distortion he was explaining was the result of the slower surface speed that exists there, since the record is spinning at a constant 33 1/3 rpm, the surface speed is highest at the outer grooves, so they have to take that into account when planning tracks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 BTW, before the flames begin, I am not saying you should not get vinyl because you might not be hearing what you think you're hearing...this is a hobby and it should be fun for you! I still plan to get a TT and listen to the difference myself. I spoke with my 20 year old son who upon hearing vinyl for the first time (since I played it, which was when he was a toddler) was impressed with it. I still have much on vinyl that's not in the digital realm yet, and if I want to hear it, I HAVE to get a TT. But if Mr. Eargle is right, that we are hearing a difference in the eq of the playback circuit, then let's address that. Now, let the flames begin! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisK Posted February 3, 2003 Author Share Posted February 3, 2003 TBrennan, I didn't mean to imply that I was dismissing his comments out of hand. Quite the contrary, his credentials speak for themselves, and his comments have caused me to begin to rethink some of my assumptions. At the same time, I still believe that it is ever so slightly possible that sometimes, maybe, one can rely too heavily on measurements and dismiss out of hand what is actually occurring sound wise. Id guess that Mr. Eargles presentation was something on the order of 90% measurements and architecture. Just as the most powerful computers in existence are still light-years behind the human brain in many ways, might not the most advanced listening devices be likewise inferior to human perception in ways also? As a matter of fact, Dr. Edgar was explaining some speaker theory to Mr. Eargle regarding imaging and soundstage and it didn't appear as though Mr. Eargle was totally convinced. This led me to think about a question. Are sound staging and/or imaging an actual thing that can be measured? Is it some sort of illusionary effect? Or is it possibly something that has to be interpreted by a human sense alone? Andy, No flames or arguments from me. I guess all the measurement graphs and charts possibly bored me a tad (pun intended). I like practical stuff like, Lets listen and talk about what we hear. I hope this post made some sort of sense because Im going to push submitnow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisK Posted February 3, 2003 Author Share Posted February 3, 2003 Andy, If what you interpreted as Mr. Eargle's comment about so-called vinyl sound superiority to be a function of a "difference in the eq of the playback circuit", how come I can't "eq" my cd player to sound as good as my TT? Even when I was using a <$200 TT, I preferred it (as did many friends without knowing which source they were listening to) to my >$1,500 cdp. I love this sort of discourse. No harm, no foul. Regards, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Chris, I was hoping we could just light the fuse and hide safely to observe the fireworks, but alas, no fireworks yet! I am all for "let's listen and discuss what we heard". I admit, I am at a disadvantage hear in that it's been many years since I have heard vinyl...then again, maybe it allows me to look objectively at what the blind tests seem to imply. What you said about Mr. Eargle not grasping the imaging concept, remember that Doctor Edgar said he too didn't take notice until someone in the group there pointed it out to him. I must admit that I first heard this from a friend who sells audio equipment, and at first it was a bit elusive. But I do remember saying this about how I remember experiencing my system many years ago vs today. Because of my room shape, I believe my system has very poor imaging today. Yet I remember when I had my Khorns set up in a basement of a house in which I once lived, with a lessor quality amplification (a Crown DC 150A and IC 150A preamp), with vinyl, the room was filled with music...it was coming from everywhere. Was this imaging? I dunno! I presume it has something to do with this. But it sounded good! The Scott now comes closer to this, but I will eventually have to sell this condo and get me a REAL house for my Khorns to experience this fully again. You do need to hear it first and experience it to know it is possible. I would be willing to bet that Mr. Eargle's ears are trained to listen a bit differently than ours because of his vast recording experience...it would have been interesting to go deeper with him on this subject as he is very knowledgeable, especially the low end boost he mentioned. Remember the controversy over marking CD's edges with a green marker? Everyone swore it made a difference. The tech heads said "no way! Those are 1s and 0s!" Well, neither were wrong, but the techs did not account for what was going on (I believe it was the marked CD absorbed some of the stray reflections in cheaper CD players or something to that effect, producing a cleaner signal). You are hearing a difference! You want to know what that difference is, so you can get more of it...but this is what eludes us. Will be interesting if Dr. Edgar will set up the TT, I will definately want to be there for that! Perhaps the low end boost cannot be duplicated with the CD because it happens so early in the amplification stage, but I'm really guessing here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 I must add something here as well. It is real humbling, yet exciting for me to be in the presence of such knowledgeable people, after all, this was once to have been my field. But because I got scared off by the math necessary to this science, and because I was young, dumb, and full of *** , I blew off a higher education. Dr. Edgar pointed out a lot of shortfalls of my Khorns, many of which made sense when I heard him explain them, but darn if I can remember all of these now. I can't afford a new speaker system, so this was not good news, but they are sooooo far better than other speakers out there that I am still happy with them. But I know I heard scientific accuracy, and I value this. He hinted that he can help too, so there is a bright side. From what I have learned about the good doctor, I know he MEASURES, and I bet he LISTENS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisK Posted February 3, 2003 Author Share Posted February 3, 2003 Andy, You and I need to clear out some time one of these weekends and hang out with the Doc together. He'll always put somebody to work at the shop. Last week I swept out the woodworking room while getting a great lesson from him about his home theater theories. Soon, I'm planning on bringing a set of plans for the ALK crossovers over to him for a look see. Regarding Mr. Eargle, I hope some day to be able to hear him speak on multi-channel music reproduction. He is apperently very well known for his ideas in that realm. So far the only multi-channel music I've experienced since the failure of "Quadraphonic" sound in the 70's was a DTS DVD recording of the Eagles "Hell Freezes Over". While it did sound interesting, hearing the different instruments surrounding me did not improve the listening experience. I have yet to attend a live musical performance where musicians surrounded me while playing. Regards, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Hmmm, I offered to email him those plans, he seemed to indicate he knows the xover, but somehow I think it would be a good idea, just in case. And I guess I better weat grubbies! What a great way to get that education! Let me know when you go, I'll be there! (Bring your TT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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