mobile homeless Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 It's interesting comparing and contrasting gear. The more amps you get to sample and compare in a system that is set up to reveal subtle differences and shadings, exposing problem areas as well as revealing more sublime traits, the better you will start to get a handle on the differences, honing in on what qualities are important. And riding along with this aspect is the all important quality of musicality, many times only revealed with long term exposure as well as a variety of material/sources. As I wrote elsewhere this morning, there is a lot more in the picture than more highs and lows. It is the subtle distinctions between the quality of these highs and lows, along with the all important midrange. The overall presentation of the soundfield/stage and all within takes time to ascertain. The differences in a merely good amplifier and a truly great one is sometimes lost when attention is not paid to setup or if one is actually not accustomed to hearing some of the qualities or distinctions that set the good from the great. And you have so many variables coming into play with room, setup, implementation, and the all important musical taste and listening habits. This is one of the problem areas I see in assessing gear as people just have so many levels of experience as well as gear to compare to. And when one has a certain range of music with more narrow listening conditions to satisfy, than conclusions on worth and performance can be limited. Unfortunately, these aspects aren't revealed very often so one usually just sees the final "this is good or this is not so good" result. I am currently listening to Leok's very own implementation of the Tripath digital solution geared towards high efficiency speakers: The Waltham Integration P6D Digital Integrated Amplifier (It has a volume pot and one set of inputs). Comparing this little 6w digital amplifier to my 2A3 Monoblocks has been an interesting experience. I have run it with a 5691 tube pre and on its own with different results. I haven't even had it for 24 hours but have come to know the little amp a bit. I will say that is has some amazingly sweet treble and an open midrange compared to most solid state, this something that has the potential to set it apart from a host of others. For very efficient speakers, it really doesn't have any peers in this price range in the solid state camp (if the criteria of use is adhered to). It is more beguiling than another good, low watt normal SS offering, the Class A, Zero Feedback Monarchy Audio SM70, but perhaps lacks some of the headroom. I think it actually has a more refined treble and within its range is a better amplifier in many ways. The bottom end has some nice weight, something that comes at a surprise based on the very economical power supply (it is definitely the smallest power supply implementation I have ever had in my system, comparable to some portable CD players, something that I find interesting). But comparing these amps with various cable and tube preamps just goes to illustrate how subtle the differences can be. Yet in these subtle differences sometimes lie the all important ones that distinguish first or second system use, or even on the shelf status. I hope to write some detailed comments in the future. kh ps- I wanted to say the picture above is of the unit placed vertically since my main system cable could not be handled with the amp on its feet due to the size, placement of posts, and extremely light weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 So what is the deal with this thing? Can you buy them this way, did Leo work his magic on it somehow? Where do you find them, and how much are they? A good candidate for very late night listening? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 25, 2003 Author Share Posted February 25, 2003 I believe Waltham Integration is either Leo's own company or a company he is associated with and starting up. To be honest, I am not even clear on this here. From the information supplied, the name "P6D" comes from Pulse width modulation, 6 Watts, Demo. This little amplifier is based on the Tripath TA1101B integrated circuit that uses a proprietary class T pulse width modulation output to achieve very high efficiency and low distortion. The P6D is designed to demonstrate the advantages of low distortion at low power. The intended input is stereo 1 to 2 volt rms line level audio while the Output is 9Vrms max. low impedance signal to drive 8 Ohm loudspeakers. Output power for high fidelity operation is below 6 Watts (> 0.03% thd+n into 8 Ohms). Again, the P6D is really intended for use with very efficient loudspeakers (>=96dB at 1W at 1 meter). With less efficient speakers, the P6D demonstrates the advantage of low distortion at low power, but is not likely to provide adequate volume for all-around use (this from the user guide). Right now, all Leo is doing is building demo units offered at a reasonable price from what I can tell; for the exact figures, drop him a mail. I am not quite sure how close the physical implementation is to final product. I have noted a few improvements that could be made in this matter and will be sending them his way. As I stated above, I do plan on writing some detailed comments on this amp. As for your late night listening question, this all depends. I will say this little amp is an amazing entity for its size. I doubt anyone in this forum has ever seen an amplifier this small with the capability to sound quite large when partnered to very efficient Klipsch or the equivalent. Everyone has heard a lot about the Tripath digital solution. There are a number of ways to skin the cat and Leo appears to have come up with a very worthwhile device. It is literally like nothing you have seen. Right now, I have to say it is one of the best solid state amplifiers in its price range and quite a bit above, easily exhibiting better treble and a more open midrange than a host of solid state amps, including some well-known examples. IT does not have the totally liquid sound of great SET amplification. It is not as relaxed sounding but the fact that it exists in the same ballpark is amazing in and of itself. It DOES need to operated within it's parameters for best sound. The soundstaging is pretty good with nice separation falling short of the examples like the little EICO HF-81 or the 2A3 Moondogs. While there is good separation, it is not quite the wall to wall quality of a fine tube amp. BUT, the sweetness of the treble is so much better than it has a right to be (not to mention a good more than hint of that open quality I usually associate with SET). And it does have some nice bass, if not as good as the Moondog in some ways. Still, it has good extension and is very deep, especially when you consider the power supply with this little beast. The damn thing has a nice decay of notes, especially with piano, something many solid state amps bungle to say the least. The little amp just has a "Free" and pretty unfettered quality and does not sound closed in, another solid state trait. It does not clip as gracefully as tube amps, however. When it runs out of steam, it can start to collapse. Given too much, you will want to turn it down. Resolution wise is VERY good, but stops short of the amazing combo of low watt, zero feedback SET amplification, which can bring resolution, air, and musicality if the conditions are met. I will make more comments later. It's an amazing little amplifier to say the least. Leo deserves some serious praise here for marrying some of the qualities of good, low watt, zero feedback, tube amps into a simple, hum free, small package that is cute as a button. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 Kelly, I'm at work now .. not much time. I'm pleased the amp arrived and you find it as enjoyable as I do. Thanks for the nice review and interesting picture (with my favorite tube amp in the background?) leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 25, 2003 Author Share Posted February 25, 2003 Thanks for the response Leo. I was wondering when I was going to hear from you. I would be interested in your comments on my percerptions so drop in here when you have some more time. I am listening the the P6D right now with an indie band called "SMOG" featuring Bill Callahan and it's doing a fine job, this on its own without the aid of the Cary SLP-70. Earlier, I was listening to MFSL Original Master Recording version of Edison Denisov's "Works for Small Ensembles" which is not easy listening to say the least. This recording can be a bit bright, but the little P6D handled it well. Denisov's arrangements for oboe, clarinets, harp, violin, Cello, and piano can be extremely taxing on systems. I do think it benefits slightly from a tube preamp; then again, so does most everything. Still, it sounds very nice on its own and I would be fine using this way due to the treble/mids. I am now wondering how this little circuit could be taken to its extreme. I actually think the vertical mounting doesnt even look too bad; it reminds me a bit of the Sakura Systems integrated solution. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 What a great-looking amplifier! Nice job, Leo! Kelly's lucky to be able to listen to it and compare it to the Moondogs. Let us know how things go, Kelly, as you spend some more time with it. Erik Nice work, Leo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 After work: a little time to think. A question for all of us .. what would we want to do with this technology? There are a lot of possibilities: HT, portable applications, alternate amp for sessions too short for tubes, etc. PWM is a technology that makes horn loaded speakers cheap and easy to drive. That technology should be used, if appropriate, to bring hornloaded speakers back to mainstream. That makes excellent speakers available to those who opt for tubes. What's good for horns .. Thanks to everyone on the 2-Channel forum. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 Kelly, Your observations of the P6D performance are the same as mine, including the compression and distortion vs mentioned superior amps. I find that it fits in the region you describe, between mediocre transistor and good tube. I believe it is a breath of fresh air for users of horn speakers who want to escape transistor sound. It's also a fun amp to have around. I am very fond of the relaxed, but extended high frequency and very smooth bass. Chris noticed the bass of the P6D during his visit. The amp should be able to go to 10Hz, based on my calculations. The highs are nice .. not perfect, but refreshingly nice. I think the amp has a mathematic (it is digital) invisibility that is apealing. There are better amps. The HK430, McIntosh, and a slew of tube implementations. But there are worse. And people want to escape the worse solutions. PWM has a role there. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 I am so glad someone else got a chance to listen!!! My P6D sounds great with CDs. My turntable was updated with a new stylus today but the gain from the Phono through the tape out is not enough to get decent SPL on the P6D. I bought a Scott LK-48 on E Bay last night so I will have tubes to compare in 10 days. I will probably not get a phono section very soon to use as a stand alone for further comparrisons. How to further the technology is a great discussion. 5 channel amp Can you make a 25 watt version(difficult?) Combo amp and CD player in the same housing I think Leo needs to consider patent protection. Or a joint devlopment agreement with a reputable company that would compensate him for his creative value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 DiD you give me the new "Spartan"? Really cool! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 25, 2003 Author Share Posted February 25, 2003 Leo, I think you might be selling the little amp short if listening within its range. I do want to hear the H/K 430. But given my exposure to a majority of amps in this era including the well reviewed Natural Sound Yamaha CR Series in the mid-70s, which I own, I think the little P6D has a far above average open quality with an amazingly natural sound that is superb for what it is, probably bettering the 70s solid state in refinement. While it might not have the headroom and leeway, I think it has a good bit of that elusive open midband and refined treble that I really never heard in any of the 70s receivers. I did hear warmth and good sound on some of the units but the P6D has hints of the sort of open traparency that was not really the 70s amps forte. Based on my memories of the various solid state McIntosh I have heard at length, this little amp has a more relaxed and open sound as well, though it HAS to be within it parameters. I find it has more silence between the notes than the old SS, especially the big old bruiser amps of 100w or more. The little Tripath digital amps really do have some things going their way. It does still have a hint of the transistor sound that NO transistor amp, mo matter how exspensive, fully gets rid of. It is evidenced in that ever so slight level of glare; yet to even write the sentence out, gives it too strong a suggestion. IT is barely perceptable. I think it also does a bit better with small group jazz, classical, and more sparse rock. But it comes close given the right conditions and material. I would say that is one of its weaknesses. It does require some more narrow confines to reach its best; in other words, out of its realm, things get more problematic. It does need some volume to bloom but it doesnt like to be overdriven (too low a volume and it doesnt fully flesh out the material). It is this sweetspot area where it thrives. The less it is driven, the better it sounds. I think it's neatest aspect is as a little stand alone amp that fits in your palm and weighs less than a cup of coffee. But the best sound I have gotten from it was with my Cary feeding it. Now when I run the digital Tripath P6D with my Cary 6SL7/6SN7 pre (using NOS 5691), it gives a good many solid state devices a definite second place status, not to mention some lessor tube amps. With the tube pre, it surely sounds more fluid and relaxed than any solid state amp I have had in here in the last few years. This is some high praise for your little amp. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 I'm still curious about cost and availability, and whether or not the little box has been tweaked, or comes as is? If the amp is grain free, it might be interesting to use it in a horizontal biamping situation just driving the horns. Of couse, I'm thinking of an application involving a decent two-way. Reducing the load on the amp might net even cleaner treble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 A little short on time .. Kelly, I was guessing on the HK430 .. using others' remarks as a guide. I just haven't hard that many amps (didn't know Chris had an HF81 .. I was probably looking at it thinking it looked familiar). deang, I have biamped (or dual amped) the RF-7s with two P6Ds. The problem is, in the crossover region the speaker impedance gets all messed up. I thought it sounded better with a single amp and both RF-7 sections connected. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Dean, "I'm still curious about cost and availability, and whether or not the little box has been tweaked, or comes as is?" Leo is maybe busy or most certainly humble. I think he made 6 or 8 prototypes of his own implementation of this commercial chip. I think the origonal TRIPATH chip has been changed to a new engineering level design. They are avialiable only through LEO; this is a prototype of his design, so it is not really a tweak, it is the origonal. As I remeber it is called a Class "T" design. He was kind enough to sell me one while I agonized over what tube direction I was going to pursue. It may be really cool to buy an old Scott LC-21 preamp to try with the P6D. Hope this explains things a little more. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 I'm traveling on the Left Coast this week so I've been a bit out of touch ... but I've found this thread to be very interesting. I think I posted some of my impressions of the Little Tyke back on a different thread after hearing Leo's RF7/Moondog combo a few weeks back ... but I had similar impressions when hearing it. First, I was astonished at the size and depth of the sound that could emanate from such a TINY package! The bass was palpable and the midrange was very musical. I found my eyes wide open and the "foot a tappin'" as soon has he put it on. I think I mentioned as well that I thought the sound was very similar to his Moondogs, although when we put the 'dogs back on line after the Tyke, the difference was audible ... but NOT in a huge way at all. The thing that I found amazing is not only the size of the P6D, but the WEIGHT ... It's got to weigh in somewhere around that of a pack of playing cards. It held its own against an amp in a 30 pound package! Given the size of this little amp, I think it would be scaleable into 2-ch, 3-ch, 5-ch (or greater) systems. Just think ... Take your Denon "pre-amp out" connections and run it into a 5-ch gang of these little boards and you have the sound that I've been looking for in the HT system! Heat and size are not problems, and if you can package this all up for a $750 resale, I think you've got a giant killer. I think I recall Leo said he had ten prototypes built up but hasn't done anything with them ... His challenge right now is marketing ... I think it could be targeted to they hornie crowd, but how to get the word out? Leo, great job ... Sorry not to mention the HF-81 ... Maybe I'll drag it down to your place for a listen? Last weekend, though, was a time to listen to YOUR gear which was amazing. It's too bad we didn't have the time to hook the P6D up to the Klipschorns. It would have been amazing, I'm sure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Although he does not surf on the 2 channel forum much; "HORNED" has the maximum K Horn HT system out in Claifornia. It would be intesting to have that kind of exposure to the P6D. I have not tried them with my RB-5s. Efficiency may be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Audio .. The P6D and RB-5 is a real nice combination. It won't go real loud, but it is easy to listen to, full, and nicely detailed. Also, with a cd player as a source it makes a very compact system. I use that combo as a local demo system, and as a home office system. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Leo, I have just been an old Classic Rock headbanger for so long. "Quadrophenia" by the Who needs a little bit of bone crushing SPL. But I am getting better in my old age. 10 years ago I would have never listened to Hildegard Von Bingen, Sophie Van Otter, Patricia Barber, Tchikovski(sp), Holst, Elgar and the like. An old party animal can acquire a little culture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 I'd sure like to hear those Chorus IIs. They look like the high SPL and detail formula to me. I think this weekend I try the Fortes on the dogs. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 I listened to the new Eric Clapton live CD tonight on the P6D. The mastering on this CD seems to fit really well with the Chorus II and P6D. It is a bit bright, but I expect that in a live rock album. I would rather have an accoustic guitar be a bit forward and bright than subdued. Personal preference! Clapton's voice at his age has mellowed like good scotch. His vocals from 25 years ago were far less than inspiring. I cannot wait to start listening to vinyl through the P6D. Still a little work to get this going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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