Coolin Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 Yes Dean please tell us more! I still want to do some crossover mods but im more things im working on at the moment. Now that you have more top end do you think you might have to lower the tweeter level some? I know i have dropped mine on the RF-3s at least a few db's with series resistors. Im not sure but the impedance will change and move the crossover piont a little. Please tell us what you have noticed by swapping individual components. Have you compared the resistors with the originals? Inductor differences? If you have copied the original values of the original parts you must be able to tell where the biggest improvements can be made? I have ordered some 10W resistors to try the impedance trick leok mentioned. I have been thinking of this before. It probably will work better with tubes than SS. Later, Collin Ps; Has anyone ever played with a "gainclone" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 9, 2003 Author Share Posted March 9, 2003 I didn't add a part at a time, I just rebuilt the whole crossover -- so I don't know what or how the individual parts are contributing to the 'parts' are contributing to the differences. The improvements are from top to bottom: Cleaner, smoother, and better delineation of the the notes in the music. Values are identical with the exception of the lower DCR's of the inductors and one resistor. The DCR's of the inductors in the tweeter circuit are however -- within a 10th of an ohm. I will eventually wind my own with litz magnet wire when I get caught up on everything else. I won't discuss what I know about the circuit, or discuss the values on a public forum. You can email me, and I'll tell you what you need to know. I would however appreciate you keeping the information close to the vest. This all primarily out of respect for Klipsch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 Coolin, Adding the series resistor in a ss situation is something I hadn't thought of. I think it depends on what load the design of your amp was optimized for. Let us know what you find out. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USparc Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Nice work DeanG. From your picture I draw the electrical schematic. It is the same as in my RF-3s. 4th order for the horn driver and a 2nd order for the woofs. Off course the values would be different because of the crossover frequency. The horn driver of the RF-7 seems to have a notch filter. Im still puzzled why 4th order for horn and 2nd order for the woofs. This means that the woofs are rolling off 12db/octave and the horn 24db/octave. So the woofs continue to work in the range of the tweeter more then the other way around. Any thoughts? Im just in to the crossover thing for now. Im thinking to do the same for my RF-3s. ( Although klipsch used very good components of MER and MET type for capacitors. Dont know about the inductors) I would definitely separate the crossover of the horn and woofs to avoid interference from the inductors. Happy tweaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolin Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Been having lots of fun with my amp, its time to do some more modding on the RF-3s. The resistor trick does seem to even out the response a little, however i eventually took it out and left it that way Without was a little punchier. The quality of the resistor is very important. A wirewound didnt improve the sound as much as it deteriorated it. USparc, Can you clarify on the MER and MET caps, What are they precisely? Dean, Do you know the frequency of the notch filter on the horn and what the source of this problem could be? The Rf-3s dont have it and i wonder if they could use it. I think i will try those foil inducters. Does anyone know the values for the RF-3s? They seem to be printed under the components but i havent checked yet. Dean if i understand correctly you have only noticed problems regarding the DCR of the notch filter coil and not the other coils? Also i was wondering if i could go from 4th order to 2nd order on the tweeter if i didnt pump to many watts? Any ideas? What hapens to the phase? Thanks, Collin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 21, 2003 Author Share Posted July 21, 2003 Everything you see is there or not there for a reason. Don't go crazy, you'll ruin your speakers. Klipsch knows what they are doing, if the RF-3 needed a notch filter there would be one. Remember, the horn drivers are not the same. All you want to do is clean things up a little, and unless you have a lot of time and money -- don't mess with the inductors. Once I started messing with the inductors I ended up having to rebuild my board two more times. Keep it simple. Replace the resistors with Mills, and put some nice Auricaps in the tweeter section. You can use a large value ICW cap from www.diyaudio.com for the bass. Stay away from the Solens, they sound terrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolin Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Thanks for the word of caution Dean. I know they are different tweeters but i'm still wondering what the freq. and what the reasoning could be? Ive already been doing major hardware experimenting so i'm not afraid to go down that road.... you gotta take some risks in life ! (like playing without screens in front of the drivers, which my daughter already damaged ofcourse) I ask this because ive read somewhere that a small dip in the frequency responce near 3k is actually more natural sounding wrt sounds with alot of diffuse reflections. CO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USparc Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 For capacitor type overview: http://netcity1.web.hinet.net/UserData/shiawei/new_page_1.htm Indeed the RF-3 doesn't need a notch filter (I think). Like DeanG said, if the RF-3 needed one their would be one. But you never know until you actualy take the horn to a frequency generator the take the frequency response. Maybe klipsch left it out to spare some components. We however could discover this by checking the RF-5. Does the RF-5 have a notch filter on the horn filter?? Another thing is the crossover frequency itself. I see that klipsch raised the crossover frequency. If you check the RF-5 which has the same woofers as the RF-3's but different horn(think driver is the same). RF-5 xover 2500Hz. RF-3 xover 1975Hz. So the woofers have to do more in the RF5 then in the RF-3???? Even in the RF-7 (xover at 2200) which have even larger woofers the crossover frequency is raised vs the RF-3. There is some margine here for the woofers. Why do the new horns need to do less?? There could be an improvement to raise the crossover of the RF-3 to reduce the stress on the horn. In time I will figure it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolin Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 ---------------- On 7/22/2003 8:10:37 AM USparc wrote: For capacitor type overview: http://netcity1.web.hinet.net/UserData/shiawei/new_page_1.htm To bad we still dont know the used materials which determine the quality. Indeed the RF-3 doesn't need a notch filter (I think). Like DeanG said, if the RF-3 needed one their would be one. But you never know until you actualy take the horn to a frequency generator the take the frequency response. Maybe klipsch left it out to spare some components. We however could discover this by checking the RF-5. Does the RF-5 have a notch filter on the horn filter?? I dont know if the RF-5 has one but i doubt it. And this could very well be a cost cutting measure for the RF-3 while the cross over freqency change on the RF-5 has solved this. Another thing is the crossover frequency itself. I see that klipsch raised the crossover frequency. If you check the RF-5 which has the same woofers as the RF-3's but different horn(think driver is the same). RF-5 xover 2500Hz. RF-3 xover 1975Hz. So the woofers have to do more in the RF5 then in the RF-3???? Even in the RF-7 (xover at 2200) which have even larger woofers the crossover frequency is raised vs the RF-3. There is some margine here for the woofers. Why do the new horns need to do less?? There could be an improvement to raise the crossover of the RF-3 to reduce the stress on the horn. In time I will figure it out. If i am correct the driver of the RF-3 has been used with the horn of the RF-7. This suggest (and klipsch comment on the forum that the users commented on a "shouty" nature of the RF-3 at higher levels)there is room for improvement by enlarging the horn on the RF-3. I can tell you this is an amazing improvement!! I have done this with cardboard at the moment. Futher evidence is that the power rating has been dropped somewhat on the newer RF-3s. Mine are 225 W each. Maby we can convince Dean to spill the beans.................. ---------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 24, 2003 Author Share Posted July 24, 2003 I've spilled enough beans. Seriously though - what beans? I'm not an engineer, and so have to rely on the Klipsch engineering as a foundation. It's a good foundation, and the best improvement in sound is found by just upgrading the quality of the parts -- without drastic changes. Even small changes yield big differences -- and best not to screw around with things too much. Between Sparc doing room additions to the inside of his 3's, and you turning yours into a megaphone -- I'm starting to get a headache. If you measured the frequency response of your speakers after doing these mods, you would both drop a turd. Things just don't work that way. The math behind all of this is very complex, and even with the right test equipment, voicing a speaker properly can be very time consuming. Sparc, when you displaced cabinet volume with your mod, that changed the Q parameters. I don't care what you say, or what you are hearing -- your drivers are no longer aligned properly with the cabinet and ports. The best analogy I can thing of at 6 AM is that it is like blowing into the top of an empty bottle, and as you fill it with liquid -- the pitch changes. You changed the resonance point, and the point at which the ports take over. Most of what you are hearing is due to this -- not the added rigidity. Coolin -- the flare, width, height, and shape of the horn is something that is calculated out. Everything that makes a speaker what it is, is relational. Every part butts up against every part, on paper as well as physically. Yes, I think the RF-5 uses the same driver as the RF-3, but with a larger lens. However, it is also a bigger speaker all the way around. I do know the RF-5 was voiced differently than the 3, but that's all I know. I'm not all that familiar with the RF-5 -- just know it's a little "different". Personally, I think all of the Reference stuff sounds shouty with middle of the road solid state, of course -- I don't know what either of you are using. You would both hear the biggest improvements with simple crossover part upgrades and by going to better setups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USparc Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Dean, I will repeat it. The loss in volume is minimal. Besides how far are you going with alignment and Q parameters if your enclosure is not rigid enough? It is not only audible at lower frequencies but also a good deal in the midrange. I heard it especially with voices. They dont seem to come from the speakers anymore and are placed in the room. This was obvious when I finished my first RF-3 and compared it to the other one. The sound produced by the original RF-3 was still at the enclosure while the sound from the braced RF-3 was decoupled from the cabinet. You would be surprised what a rigid enclosure can do. But Ok, You dont care what I say. (Almost forgotten) Back to crossovers. I do think that my RF-3 can benefit from a better crossover. So I did some research, talked to people about crossover components. For now I ended up with components of http://www.intertechnik.de For HF filter: A MOX resistor for the efficiency adaption. AUDYN CAPS MKP Air coils 1mm. For LF filter: Air coil 1,4 mm AUDYN CAP MKP This would cost me about $30 for the components of one speaker. Let the fun begin ... . Dean, was there a big improvement from going from an air coil inductor to a copper foil inductor in the LF?? As far as setup goes, my pioneer is a decent receiver with very good amplification. No need for more. With the pioneer the RF-3 s are far from shouty. With Denons I notice it. They do tend to sound the RF-3 like ice. So cold and bright. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 27, 2003 Author Share Posted July 27, 2003 I didn't really mean I didn't care what you thought, I apologize for that. I've been tired and pretty run down lately. Did you measure the DC resistance with a multimeter of your HF inductor? The AUDYN MKP appears to be very similiar to the Auricap -- you did good. The improvement of putting a CFAC on the woofer is going to really put a smile on your face. Bring on the SLAM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USparc Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 ---------------- On 7/27/2003 8:46:05 PM DeanG wrote: I didn't really mean I didn't care what you thought, I apologize for that. I've been tired and pretty run down lately. ---------------- Dean, apologize accepted. No big deal. ---------------- On 7/27/2003 8:46:05 PM DeanG wrote: Did you measure the DC resistance with a multimeter of your HF inductor? ---------------- No I didn't yet. But I think it would be not that much ( in the range of 0.2-0.6 Ohms) as it is a (iron,ferite) core inductor. The windings are less, so also the resistance. The thing is that the core adds distortion!! Maybe I'm wrong here and is it different. (I have to measure) Did you do some compensations in the HF to balans the efficiency? I mean the first resistor in the HF. ---------------- On 7/27/2003 8:46:05 PM DeanG wrote: The improvement of putting a CFAC on the woofer is going to really put a smile on your face. Bring on the SLAM. ---------------- Really!! Ok, then I have to add $15 for each speaker. They are pricy!! But a smile on my face is worth a lot more ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 28, 2003 Author Share Posted July 28, 2003 "....But I think it would be not that much ( in the range of 0.2-0.6 Ohms) as it is a (iron, ferrite) core inductor. The windings are less, so also the resistance." I was actually asking about the inductor(s) in the HF part. Are you making a change there? Yes, the iron core on the bass is probably .3 ohms. The temptation is to go to a larger AWG and really drop the DCR -- don't do it. Klipsch uses the DCR of the bass inductor to tweak the Qts of the woofers for the vented cabinet. Go with a CFAC, but use 16 AWG, and keep the DCR as close as possible. If you keep the mH within 10% to 20% you'll be fine. "Did you do some compensations in the HF to balance the efficiency? I mean the first resistor in the HF." No. If you keep the DCR in the bass close, you won't upset the balance. Besides, the sensitivity/output of the HF section is a dictated by the total resistance of the circuit, and not just the AC. Increase the quality of the parts equally across the crossover without changing the values. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USparc Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 You are right on the DCR value of the LF inductor. I just measured it. 0.3 ohms. The CFAC on intertechnik has 0.2 ohms. But would the 0.3 ohms add any difference in the first place?? The DCR of the 2 woofers in parallel is 3 ohms. Ok, I dont want to change the values klipsch uses, but those values are not the common values. So to not end up combining components I just take the value below the original values. Why below. I think it is better to raise the crossover a bit then lower it. Ill probably order the components this week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.