Yank Yammie for Dubious Denon?

[HornEd]

Thanks for being there Boa! Having four KLF 30's is a treat... a pair for mains and a pair for side surrounds. It is surprising how much better side surrounds they are... must be the efficiency. So, now I have a pair of KLF 10's to put to work.

The Denon 5800 quandry boils.

Some say it has a softer sound than the Yamaha RX-V3000 I have but which can be traded in to take $2k off the 5800. The cost of this deal is not so much the issue as speculating as to which receiver would produce the best HT environment for $2-4k.

The Yammie has two separate 25 watt front effects amplifiers... but I suppose I could rig up a seperate amp to the front outs and create a front effects channel in addition to the mains. I am open to any suggestions.

The 5800 caught my eye because of its rich array of algorithms to provide 6.1/7.1 from a wide variety of sources... even stereo! Also, there is more speaker latitude with two sets of discrete surrounds.

But... I have some trepidation regarding Denon's record of less than spectacular service... and the oft cursed remote control that comes with it.

The 5800 has 170 watts per channel (Yammie has 100x6 channels, 25x2 channels)... way more than the KLF 30 need to fill this room with sound!

Also, there is a grapevine issue of a 5801 model coming for the Christmas season. My lack of experience with Denon products puts me at a disadvantage. Rumor has it there is strong reason to doubt Denon's customer service standards... and the quality of the 5800's remote.

So, what would you do if you were me? Thanks HornEd

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"Klipsch by the Dozen"

Front Six Pack:

KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7

KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects

Side Surround:

KLF 30 on KSW-12 L/R

Rear Effects:

KLF 10 L/R

Rear Center:

KLF 10 atop KSW-12

Speaker Support Systems:

Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65"

Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver

Happy Ears x2!

[ColaBear]

HornEd

I am also using KLF-30s for both mains and surrounds. It really is a wonderful experience to say the least. I'd like to address two of your comments/concerns. Before I bought my 5800, I used a Yamaha DSP-A1 (which is still sitting in a box in my closet). I had a pair of SB-1s as front effects. I personally didn't think the front effects channels made any difference in the sound stage. The 5800 replaced a 5700 (which I still also have) and I couldn't be happier. The much maligned remote has worked flawlessly since I have owned it as has the 5800.

I read may reviews complaining of damaged/dead out of the box 5800s and freezing remotes. Seems most of those people bought them from some less than reputable dealers on the internet. Everyone that I have talked to that has had good/great results bought their 5800s from authorized dealers. Seems there is a correlation there, you be the judge.

In closing, go to a dealer and listen to the 5800 with the KLF-30s hooked to it. Let your ears be the judge. Had I based my decision for speakers and a receiver on reviews (like many on the Audioreview and Home Theatre Forum sites seem to do) I would have a Pioneer receiver and Def Tech speakers. I let my ears be the judge.

By the way, I have never owned anything but Klipsch speakers. It started with a pair of Heresys, purchased in 1978 while in college.

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KLF-30 mains

KLF-C7 center

KLF-30 surrounds

KG -3.5 rear effects

KSW200 subwoofer

Denon AVR5800

Pioneer Elite DV-09

Pioneer Elite PD-F19

RCA DTC1000

Sony Playstation 2

Denon MD1000

Vidikron Epoch D-600

Vutec 100" 4:3 1.5 gain

[HornEd]

Thanks, ColaBear, I needed that! So many Denon horror stories had put me off a bit... and this will be my first Denon product. Don't get me wrong, I like to get good value for my money... but spending a lot of my time in a hassle is much more expensive to me than the unit. Unfortunately, I bought the last set of KLF 30's that I know of in the SF Bay Area... so my local authorized dealer can't do an instore demo. Having the 30's as surrounds is much better than anticipated... and now, if I can find one, I would like to put a KLF 30 (or two) as rear effects speaker(s). But 6.1/7.1 has been a very worthwhile environment and the 5800's ability to bring it about from nearly any source material intreques me. Is it as good as I think it is?

For months I also did not think much of the front effects... then I set them up in a more agressive posture and they HAVE made a difference. If I take the 5800 deal, I will likely rig up an external amp to continue using a front effects soundstage.

There is one burning question for which I have not found an acceptable answer, ColaBear. Can the 5800 be made to pare off ALL of the subwoofer range lows of ALL seven channels and send them to the sub outs? My research with low frequency augmentation of aging neural pathways points me toward having the front and rear speaker arrays pumping out discrete bass to 80hz (for directionality) and the subwoofer array pumping out the majority of the non-directional and "feel" bass. I am not sufficiently clear about bass management parameters in the 5800.

Thanks again, ColaBear... you put the fizz back in my quest! HornEd

This message has been edited by HornEd on 05-11-2001 at 10:17 AM

[boa12]

ed, what do these front effects channels do btw? my guess would be they take the 2 front channels & induce some delay.

though not an owner i researched the denons in depth. an interesting thing i found w/ the denon 5800 & other models is it appears to let u set the delay times on each individual channel. using A+B surrounds one could possibly use this for some interesting effects i.e. having the delay times different for each surround. some guy w/ a 4800 was going to try this but never heard back from him.

i do believe that yes the denon's bass mgmt will send all sub 80hz low bass to the sub(s) preouts from any speakers set to small. & when set to sub:yes, it sends all LFE to the sub preouts.

u can get some info including the manual in pdf @ www.denon.com i tried to attach manual for ye but apparently it's too large.

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Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnects & Monster CX-2 biwire & Z-12 cable

Marantz SR-8000 receiver

Sony DVP-C650D cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

Boa's Listenin Lounge:

Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear)

Monster MCX Biwires

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver(stereo power amp for rf-3)

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer

Technics direct drive turntable

Sega Genesis game player

Sub: None yet

rock on!

[HornEd]

I like this icon since it reflects the bumps one takes as a consumer until he gets a "gem" of a system... only to find another bump and need to feed the HT/music habit...

Thanks for the manual attempt, Boa. But, I borrowed the actual manual from my local dealer... and have yet to find anything definitive on my bass questions. If I elect to pick up the Denon, I will probably use a pair of KLF 10's on a delay for the second surrounds and the lone KLF 10 and a KSW-12 for the rear center.

Again, I continue to be amazed at how well the KLF 30's do as surrounds.

Some say the Denon 5800 is a bit "warmer" than the Yammie and, therefore, makes a "better balanced" sound given the brightness of horns. I really appreciate comments from folks who experience the real thing... like ColaBear.

Then again, as I hear the herd of horns being pushed by my Yammie 3000... I really can't complain. HornEd

[boa12]

ed, again btw, aren't u using the sub preout(s) on your yammy? most all have that set sub cut-off @ 80hz, but i've heard some go way up to 150hz. my marantz may have it at 100hz even but it's real hard to find out since don't mention it in the manuals & marantz has no service# i can see.

if u like the warm, full sound to tame those horns definitely listen if possible to the marantz sr-18 w/ those 30s. & the marantz remote is an amazing pronto-like learning device. & they have 6 dig inputs.

i cpould go on

& u never did answer my ? on the front effects deal :biggrin

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Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnects & Monster CX-2 biwire & Z-12 cable

Marantz SR-8000 receiver

Sony DVP-C650D cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

Boa's Listenin Lounge:

Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear)

Monster MCX Biwires

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver(stereo power amp for rf-3)

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer

Technics direct drive turntable

Sega Genesis game player

Sub: None yet

rock on!

[rocky]

nothing.....nothing replaces the pure beauty of yammie dsp...i just got new RXV-1 TO REPLACE 10 YR OLD YAMMIE INTEGRATED DSP THAT I JUST MOVED TO ANOTHER SYSTEM. HAVE KLF-30 , RS-3 SURROUNDS AND SYNERGY S-1 FRONT EFFECT.....THE NEW RXV-1 IS SUPERB IN SOUND QUALITY AND WORKMANSHIP...STAY WITH A WINNER...YAMAHA

[HornEd]

Thanks, Rocky for your encouragement. I have had great results with Yammies for well over a decade. In fact, over ten years ago I hand built matrixed 6.0 system using two Yammie surround sound units for parts. It featured proportioned response mains instead of a center channel since the screen was 18' x 9" with a massive digital overhead projector and a 15" floor-firing sub built into a lectern (so I could get it closer to the audience). Oh, yeah, and it sat 60 people and blew away the folks that installed Hard Rock Cafe's systems. My current system is primarily to provide HT stimulation for my 93 yr.-old mom... and I think the RX V-3000 does HT better than any other Yammie. You're right, Yammie has been a winner for me!

And, Boa, I am sorry, I posted a reply on another thread for you... but it must have been lost in the flood. The front effects speakers are geared to provide a background ambiance to frame the front sound stage. That is why they only provide a 25 watt amplification for each front effect speaker... they are only giving out "audio cues" and are an outgrowth of Yammie's acoustic research of famous sound venues. I like them because they allow me to tuck the mains right up to the 65" RPHD monitor to eliminate the perceived dialogue gap that may occur between a corner speaker location and the screen... and the front effects still give much of the benefit that a corner located speaker would give. The more natural the sound image, the more benefit viewers, like my mom, get from the system. The front effects are also 6' high and there is just enough delay to create an illusion of a higher wide open effect... or a close-in effect. As I mentioned on an earlier post, it took some spirited expirimentation to get them to work as nicely as they do now.

I do not know what is the best course... and I have a sneaking suspicion that a few alternatives (including one by Denon) will be released this summer and fall. I need to get out and check out Marantz. I haven't had a Marantz for over thirty years... back when I had hearing that allowed me to enjoy the upscale stuff.

Anyway, thanks guys... I don't feel so lonely in this decision making when good folks make valid contributions. And, yes, boa, that includes humor! Someday I'll have to post the mystery of John Madden's first car, a '39 Cad in '53, was "blown up" by someone on the football team. Talk about one mad Madden ! HornEd

[Mikekid]

I'm with Rocky... I have been using Yamaha products for sooo long now that I will MORE than likely continue to do so. My equipment has been ABUSED and not even a hiccup..ever! (We like it kinda loud) Sounds as smooth as silk too.

I can't comment on what receiver sounds "warmer" or compare in any way as I have NOT had different brands hooked up to MY speakers in My home. In this house........, YAMAHA & KLIPSCH all the way!

Mike (The Yamaha underdog) Oh Yeah!

This message has been edited by Mikekid on 05-11-2001 at 05:46 PM

[RossVTaylor]

Ed,

Check out these threads:

http://www.klipsch.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/001101.html

http://www.klipsch.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/001818.html

I, personally, am incredibly happy with my Denon. I'm a Denon convert (from Yamaha) with my Klipsch and I couldn't be happier. Not that you could go wrong with either one. I highly doubt that there will be a 5801 soon. Denon's releasing a DPL II upgrade for the 5800 this summer - not something I'd expect prior to a new flagship release. Although I could certainly be wrong, I think if there was a valid 5801 rumor it would have been discussed on the unofficial Denon 5800 site at:

http://pub7.ezboard.com/faussiedvdandhtforumdenonavr5800informationforum

Ross

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"Time flies like an arrow.

Fruit flies like a banana."

[HornEd]

In mid consternation over upgrading receivers, going to separates, etc. I suddenly realized that I was truly enjoying that which I already had. And, further, any change in receivers was going to necessitate making some compromises of unknown outcome. And, after all, how it sounds should indeed be the critical test. Listening to the Denon 5800 in the showroom did not convince me that the sound was better than what I already had... but then, I believe my HT is set up better (speaker placement, acoustic treatments, etc.) than the dealer's best sound room.

So I am going to wait and see on the amp issue... and pick up a pair of RS-7's as soon as they hit the dealer and pare the room down to 7.1 with a pair of front effects. BobG says they match the Legends better than any other HT alternative... so I am willing to put my money where his mouth is! ~ <Hey BobG, that little "stick his tongue out" rascal is still broken.

I do appreciate all the thought provoking comments that have been made on this thread and others where parallel issues were raised. I had been away from the music/HT wars for too long... and this BB raised my consciousness in a heartbeat. To all you lurkers out there, come on in and share your expertise and your dreams... there are some fine folks to meet in Planet Klipsch... some of them even work for the company! HornEd

------------------

"HornEd Herd"

Front Six Pack:

KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7

KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects

Side Surround:

KLF 30 on KSW-12 L/R

Rear Effects:

KLF 10 L/R

Rear Center:

KLF 10 atop KSW-12

Speaker Support Systems:

Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65"

Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver

... and counting!

This message has been edited by HornEd on 05-14-2001 at 01:16 AM

[BigStew]

HornEd,

I recently went thru the same receiver upgrade "urge" you seem to be going thru now. I think you would be doing yourself a great disservice if you did not demo the B&K 307. I exchanged a Yamaha RX-V1000 for one and could not be happier (actually there is no comparison between the two). My decision came down to the Denon 5800 and the B&K. They are in the same price range, both have 7 channels and the upgradability that I wanted. Very dificult choice but after all was said the B&K sounded better in my room. The Denon has more HT features and surround modes, but the B&K is extremely tweakable in the setup and crossover areas and sounded much better with music (I am about 60/40 leaning towards music over HT).

I don't think you can go wrong with the Denon but at least give the B&K a listen if possible.

[tyranny]

i am in the denon camp as well. denon and klipsch were a match made in electronic heaven. i used to run an old denon 2500 which got me hooked on the klipsch/denon combo. i recently dropped in the denon 5800 and OMG it is just amazing. i had looked at many many av recievers before purchasing the 5800, but no matter what i put together nothing sounded better then the denon. yes, i am one of the typical klipsch/denon freaks... i just love that sound.