artto Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 Rig.RE: If there is a valid reason this is not a good idea I would like to hear about it in factual terms not just that it is not good. Here it is, from the horses mouth. Electronic Crossover1.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 part 2 Electronic Crossover2.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 Forget the SACD DSD signal conversion to PCM. There is no point to it. Electronic Crossover3.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 Cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 Paul W. Klipsch is a convincing guy. I love the story he relates in your last document, where someone decided a live orchestra came in third, compared to some hi-fi playback sysems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 ---------------- On 7/10/2003 9:54:57 AM Ray Garrison wrote: Griff - Uh, I don't think so. Though experiment. Take two signals, one poor and one very good. Say, use a CD player as one source, and a portable cassette recorder as the other. Play a tune on the CD, then the same tune as recorded and played back on the cassette recorder. Run both signals throught his setup. Will you hear any difference between the two? Of course. The CD sourced signal will be as much better (well, almost) than the cassette signal as it was prior to PCM encode / decode process. I submit that the same holds true of the analog signals produced by a CD player and the SACD player. *IF* the analog output of the SACD player is, uh, more better enough (?) that you can hear the difference between the two, then those difference should not be completely masked by converting them to PCM. The only way I can see that this would not hold true was if there were some "maximum signal quality" level that the Crown setup was capable of processing (and there probably is), and if the result of feeding two signals that were both at or above this level were to reduce them both to this level. I would think that the *ANALOG* signal produced by either CD or SACD are both within the ability of the Crown to accurately sample, and thus whatever differences may exhist between them would be entact after processing by the Crown. Also, the process of converting to PCM *WILL* add some distortion. It may not be harmonic distortion, but you will get (at least some) phase distortion (particularly high frequencies), and you will reduce the signal to noise level. ---------------- Ray - you're missing it. Your analogy is tatamount to saying that because a CD was recorded from a 2" 24 track tape master, that it should sound every bit as good as that master, when we all know full well that it doesn't. Taking an SACD analog out and ramming it through a PCM converter is just as much a degradation as taking a perfectly good 2" tape master and ramming it through a PCM converter. 24 bit 48Khz PCM is certainly better than CD, but it ain't DSD, and you'll lose the benefits of the DSD encoding if you reconvert it to 24/48 PCM. You'll have a signal that's no better than the DVD's playing through that same converter (in fact, it'll be slightly worse, because it has to go front end ADC then back end DAC, unlike the DVD which is passed as 24/96 digital and downconverted to 24/48 digital, then DAC'ed) Logic, man. Pay attention to logic. If you don't believe me, then try this - take a two-channel analog out of your SACD player into a CD recorder. Record it. Play it back - is it anywhere near as good as the original? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rigma Posted July 10, 2003 Author Share Posted July 10, 2003 Now we are getting somewhere, thinks guys! artto I was not saying I was running the SACD through the processor with the intent on improving the quality, I was just wanting to know if it would degrade it. As far as the Dope from Hope, that was good reading, but not sure that it applies to the system I am using 25 years later. Remember the Crown USM-810 is doing all processing in the digital domain and all settings are verified with a high quality Crown RTA. Have you ever heard the Khorn bass section with 600 watts & a damping factor of 750 with the amp 1' from the woofer? It is the best I have heard, and no it is not exagerated but set to the same level as the midrange & tweeter. Now I admit the mid is a little harsh sounding to me but it always has been with the Crown SS amps I have used. My goal is to keep the bass and better the mid & high by using a high quality triode amps for those. That is the next step. The cost is not a factor as I already have everything except the tube amps and have enough Crown SS equipment to sell to pay for the tube amps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 Ok. I understand youre not going to run the SACD thru the Crowns processor with the intent of improving sound quality. The fact is, you can not run a SACD DSD (as a digital) signal directly thru the Crown processor. The SCAD signal must come from its analogue outputs. Which also means that you are going to have to do an A/D conversion after it goes to the Crown USM-810. And then another D/A conversion as the signal leaves the USM-810 heading for the power amps. Admittedly, Im not all that familiar with the USM-810, although I did speak with an engineer at Crown about it. I also spoke with a friend of mine who is a Crown dealer who does a lot sound reinforcement systems & recording studio installations. Seems like an interesting product. As I understand it, while the Crown USM-810 may be doing all the processing in the digital domain, you still need to go thru the CD or SACD players analogue outputs (or from a preamp) somewhere along the chain, even if you use a DAC or PC, to do the D/A conversion before it gets to the USM-810. The USM doesnt use any digital input or output for the main audio signal path. Basically this means you are going to have to go thru the D/A to A/D conversion process an additional time. Dont forget, the USM-810 is a commercial product, aimed at large, multi-function commercial systems. Under those circumstances I doubt anyone would be able to hear the double D/A to A/D conversion. As for SACD, Im sure the signal will be degraded to at least that of CD. One, because of the processing you would be putting it thru is at a much lower sample rate. Two, there is a major difference in the way DSD and PCM signals are digitized that contributes to SACDs improved recording quality. And three, you would be going thru DA/AD conversion (filtering) more times, which is what SACD specifically was designed to avoid in the first place. And yes, I have heard the Khorn bass section with 600 watts & a damping factor of 750 with the amp (albeit, not with 3 of speaker cable). Ive used Crown gear for decades. Actually, I even had a pair of Crown K2s (damping factor 3000+ &1600w bridged mono/side) hung on my Khorns. The Luxman tube amps Im using still provide a more realistic & believable presentation, with more impact & detail top to bottom, loud or soft, with any kind of music. RE: do you think it is possible to upgrade the chips in the Crown to a higher sampling rate. No. That sampling rate is fixed & is based on PCM technology. The Crown USM-810 does not support DSD regardless of any changes in the sample rate. It's analogue in, analogue out. I think I understand where you are trying to go with this now. All the pieces 'to do it right' are not in place yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 rigma, Something I'd missed that Griff points out... the SACD will like likely sound *worse* than a DVD source because "...it has to go front end ADC then back end DAC, unlike the DVD which is passed as 24/96 digital and downconverted to 24/48 digital, then DAC'ed...". That being the case, I would not be surprised if you not only lost most of the benefit of the SACD source, but found it no longer sounded as good as a garden variety DVD player. Even those DVD players (most?) that will only output 48kHz bitrate from the digital out will be skipping the added A/D step the SACD signal will have to go through. Griff, I still think if you take two signals, A1 and B1 (regardless of source), and A1 is a higher quality signal than B1, and you do exactly the same processing to both signals (which, as you pointed out, we are not doing in Rigma's case), then the resulting signal A2 will still be a higher quality signal than B2. They may both be significantly degraded from A1 and B1, but A2 will be better than B2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 Ray, either way, CD, SACD, DVD, rig is going to have to use analogue outputs to get the signal into the Crown USM-810 processor for crossovers & time alignment. And then the Crown has to convert the digital signal back to analogue again to send the signal to the power amps. So regardless of the digital source, he's going to have to do the ADC & DAC thang an additional time in order to take advantage of the Crown USB-810 as a digital crossover and time alignment processor. Even his analogue sources will have to go thru this process in order to use the Crown for crossover & time alignment processing for the Khorns. Even though I think the double ADC/DAC PCM processing required for this technique would further degrade the sound quality for all digital sources, I'd still be interested in hearing this though. I've always wondered what Khorns would sound like with a digital crossover that could also be used for time alignment. My friend the Crown dealer I mentioned above might be able to get me one to try in a couple of weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 So this Crown processor has no digital inputs? How lame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rigma Posted July 11, 2003 Author Share Posted July 11, 2003 arrto hear is the link at Crown's web site for info on USM-810 it is on page 26 of the file or page 25 of the brochure. If you get one you will have to make up or get special cables. The processor's inputs are the 3 pin barrier type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 Thanks rig. Although I don't see the link. But don't worry about it. I already downloaded the info this morning. Grif....yes, I was kind of surprised that Crown didn't include digital I/O. But, you have to remember what this product was intended for. Automated control of amplifiers, speakers, even lighting systems and 'animated characters' in commercial applications such as Disney World, stadiums, public transportation facilities, restaurants & retail stores. Places where you might want one signal to go everything & others only to certain locations, at a specific time, possibly with specfic sound 'tailoring' to each area, that can be coordinated centrally at one location. Its main purpose was not intended as a dedicated speaker crossover/time alignment processor, although it can be used for that. I'd be willing to bet that if Crown were to add the digital I/O the unit would cost a small fortune instead of a few grand. From what I can gather so far, it really needs to be integrated with a PC. In some ways it reminds me of my Crown DL2(DigiLogic) Controller/Control Center/Preamp/Power Module. That thing has an RS232 interface on it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rigma Posted July 11, 2003 Author Share Posted July 11, 2003 Sorry I forgot to past the link to the USM-810 at Crown's web site, here it is. http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/126644.pdf , this unit is on page 25 & 26. Yes artto you do program this processor via a PC & RS-232 port. You will be impressed with what you can do with this unit, example of what is possible with all 10 outputs: time delay, crossover to any freq. within 1 Hz, slopes of 6,12, 18, 24, Butterworth or Linkwitz-Riley, parametric EQ with any slope & center point, again to 1 Hz. Then you can store these various setups and then switch between multiple setups with a push of front panel button for A-B comparisons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.