tankhokie Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 I have been rubbing my head over the addition of either of these 2 subs and have looked at a lot of threads regarding them - but since the PB2+ came into play, I noticed that most everyone adding in the big PB2+ has the big horns like La Scalas, I have the following: RF3 II Fronts RC3 II Center RS3 II Surrounds Embarassing 12" Subs that don't keep up I like the reviews on the CS Ultra and was pretty set on getting one for my 18x14 foot room. But then the idea of the PB2+ and the CS+ matched driver started making me think about the CS+ cylinder. Here again comes the driver discussion. Bottom line: Anyone who has heard both the CS+ and Ultra, is the step up to the ultra worth the 300 bucks? I want HT bass that literally makes me curl up in a fetal position under my coffee table but yet doesn't run over my Reference 3 II's. Think I would be happy with the CS+??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabulousfrankie Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 My 20-39CS Plus exceeded my expectations and I was completely satistifed. Soon after I bought it I found out the woofer in the CS Ultra was upgraded at no extra cost. I returned the 20-39CS Plus and got the Ultra mainly out of curiousity. Both subs do great for HT and music but the Ultra has it's own distinct sonic signature that I prefer more than any other commercial sub I've heard at any price. The Ultra does everything with an "aggresive ease" that the 20-39CS Plus didn't have. I'm not trying to down talk the Plus at all, I think it represents the greatest value on the sub market. It's hard to quantify the difference because the difference is small. The Plus is a subwoofer that does a stellar job for music and HT. The Ultra is a subwoofer that does a flawless job. Even though the difference is small, it's just enough to put it in it's own class for reproduction of bass. It's right on with getting the timbre of each bass note correctly, without ever giving an indication of strain. My Samson S1000 clips before anything else(that's only at volumes past reference). Now that I've recently added a BFD to my system, I'm +/-2db from 15-90hz. I've gotten it to blend so well with my Klipsch RF-3II's that when demoing to my uneducated friend's, they ask if something's wrong since they aren't hearing the boom they're used too. I usually proceed to turn it off to show the difference it makes then I play The Haunting at reference level(this is when it does more than what they expect). You can also see some more of my thoughts on the two here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabulousfrankie Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 I don't know anything about the seller, but on HTF.com someone is selling an Ultra for $600. I don't know if this has the current TV-12 or not. http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=152205 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankhokie Posted July 29, 2003 Author Share Posted July 29, 2003 Thanks Frankie, I do appreciate the advice. So you are comparing the TV-12 and the dB-12 drivers I assume, so with both of these, did you ever feel that your dB-12 was "straining" to hit the bass? I like my Ref 3 II's because I never feel like I am straining the speaker to hit the volumes that I want. I am just afraid that I will get the CS+ and find a limit when the wife is away and I am watching movies at ref levels (or above)... You know the feeling....everything is great, your wrapped up in the movie, and just as the cave troll in LOTR drops his club--the sub becomes very artificial and the moment is gone, and your left grumbling to yourself that you need a better sub. Did you ever get that w/the dB-12? or just move up to the ultra for the TV-12 upgrade? A side note: What does your BFD do for you...I thought they were for mic feedback?? Thanks again Frankie. I welcome other comments too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabulousfrankie Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 ---------------- On 7/29/2003 1:46:03 PM tankhokie wrote: Thanks Frankie, I do appreciate the advice. So you are comparing the TV-12 and the dB-12 drivers I assume, so with both of these, did you ever feel that your dB-12 was "straining" to hit the bass? I like my Ref 3 II's because I never feel like I am straining the speaker to hit the volumes that I want. I am just afraid that I will get the CS+ and find a limit when the wife is away and I am watching movies at ref levels (or above)... You know the feeling....everything is great, your wrapped up in the movie, and just as the cave troll in LOTR drops his club--the sub becomes very artificial and the moment is gone, and your left grumbling to yourself that you need a better sub. Did you ever get that w/the dB-12? or just move up to the ultra for the TV-12 upgrade? A side note: What does your BFD do for you...I thought they were for mic feedback?? Thanks again Frankie. I welcome other comments too. ---------------- Yes, I am comparing the TV-12 in the CS Ultra and the dB-12 in the Plus subwoofers and no it never felt like the CS Plus was straining. Believe me, the CS Plus subs will not leave you thinking you should have bought something else. In my small 1100 cu ft room, I never reached the excursion limits of the subs, the Samson S1000 would clip before that. The CS Ultra isn't really going to give you a whole lot more output, only 1-1.5dB more which really isn't that much. I didn't even notice additional output since my room was so small. I upgraded mainly out of curiosity, not because I felt like I was lacking something. Now that I look back on it, I think I would have rather added another CS Plus instead of getting the Ultra. Even though there's no doubt the Ultra is better, dual 20-39CS Plus' for a tiny bit more would give more total output and I think it might even lower distortion to where it would be preferred over the CS Ultra(that's how small the difference between the two is) I've since sold my CS Ultra to fund a DIY sub project. I'm waiting on two Stryke AV-15's. At first I had trouble deciding on whether or not I wanted to sell the Ultra because I didn't want to build something and go down in sound quality. When I learned from John J. of Stryke that the Stryke AV woofers are extremely similar to the SVS dB-12(both made by TC Sounds), I had no more hesitations since I'd already experienced the dB-12. As for the BFD, yes it's built for suppressing mic feedback, but it also is a dual 12 band parametric equalizer. I use it as an equalizer for my subwoofer. Here's more info on how it's used for HT purposes. Here's where I went for my initial setup. Adding it to my system is one of the best things I've done to my system, I highly recommend it. It's also relatively inexpensive, it cost me $120 at a local pro audio store. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankhokie Posted July 29, 2003 Author Share Posted July 29, 2003 mmmm, more equipment.... I am left clueless on how it could get cleaner than having the SVS Ultra hot water heater and the same set of refs that I have. can you give me an idea on how the BFD improved your system? I feel better about the CS+ hearing that from Frankie. Anyone else have a CS+ and want to share some negative comments on it's performance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabulousfrankie Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 ---------------- On 7/29/2003 10:55:54 PM tankhokie wrote: mmmm, more equipment.... I am left clueless on how it could get cleaner than having the SVS Ultra hot water heater and the same set of refs that I have. can you give me an idea on how the BFD improved your system? I feel better about the CS+ hearing that from Frankie. Anyone else have a CS+ and want to share some negative comments on it's performance? ---------------- It's not that it makes the subwoofer cleaner. The room you put your subwoofer in will have a bigger impact on the sound than any other piece of equipment. Because a subwoofer has a flat frequency response in an anechoic(echo free) environment, it does not mean it will be flat in your room. Take a look here to see the before and after response of my brother's car subwoofer that I was temporarily using. The 11dB hump centered at 45hz was making the sub sound very boomy, after I eq'd it, it sounded much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Just thought I'd chime in and second Frankie's BFD description. As mentioned, the room resonances will greatly affect low frequencies, easily varying a sub's response by ±15db. If a sub were being sold with these specifications, no one would buy it!! Yet most users ignore room effects because they don't want to add an EQ in the sub's chain. An EQ can be used to reduce the resonant peaks (but never fill a null) and turn a boomy sub into what some people describe as "fast" (quick decay) sub... I, like Frank, am also building AV15 based subwoofer... so I have decided to wait before buying a BFD, until my DIY sub is up and running. I like to introduce one upgrade at the time to better understand the differences introduced by each. Later... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankhokie Posted July 30, 2003 Author Share Posted July 30, 2003 Ahhh, that explains volumes. Thanks for that info guys, the sub I have now must peak at several different freqs, I can tell by the sound, but just never measured. A definite add on to the new sub when I finally buy it and measure the room effects. So what is the inside track on these AV15's? Frank is replacing his SVS Ultra with one and that alone has peaked my interests. I just don't know about trying the DIY...I might rather drop the extra $$ and not worry about working out the kinks in my own box/ports/bracing etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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