Rope Caulk for Fortes'?

[bobd]

So I'm an idiot. I was thinking of getting rid of my Fortes because the Yamaha reciever I'm driving them with is too bright. Well I sat down the other night when everyone was in bed and put on some Stan Getz. I first listened the the "Lost Sessions" CD which is a current release. One of the tunes opens up with a little piano, brushed drums and high bass.Everything was crystal clear. Then the bass drops down an octave and Getz comes in. I was listening at very low volume and the bass just quietly filled the room while all the highs were nice and clear. I listened to a few more Getz CD's. The only one that got annoying was his Getz/Gilberto "Jazz Samba". One of the percussion instruments got too abrasive. Maybe caulking the horns didi have some affect. So now I've done a 180. I'm going to keep the Fortes. I think I'll also try finding a good Marantz 2270 reciever to see if that settles things down a bit more. Those seem rather plentiful on Ebay. Prices seem to range from 175 to 400 based on condition. There is one guy selling restored ones for around 400 with out the wood encloser. I think it's Shains Colletables. Anyone know anything about him?

[111db]

Bob, good decision! I read the thread with bated breath, hoping you would see the light before it was too late, and you did! You would surely have regretted selling your Fortes for $400, though you would have made a friend for life!

The point I want to make is that though the electronics can be important with Fortes (I own a pair of '86 Forte I's) the room and placement are really critical. I originally had my Fortes in a relatively small room with hardwood floors and few drapes and they were very lively but harsh at high levels. I came to believe that the harshness was related to the liveness of the room, reaching a kind of "saturation point". That's a description of my perception, not acoustic science. A few years later I moved to a much larger house. During the move I had my speakers at my place of employment in the breakroom for a Classical Music Society session, and in the larger (but still bright) room the speakers sounded MUCH better. Once they were installed in my new living room with 17 foot high fir plank pent-roof ceiling and 2 foot soffit-ledges 9 feet up and heavy drapes completely covering two adjacent walls and wall-to-wall carpet topped with area rugs, the sound was WAY better. The high, irregular ceiling and nonparallel and absorbent surfaces made all the difference.

Later, I rope-caulked the mid horns. It DOES make a difference, though not a radical one. The composite (plastic) horn is better damped than a metal one, but it still has a resonance that can cause colorations. Just tap the floor of the horn with a pen or something similar, and you can hear the resonance. The rope caulk reduces it a lot, though some of the resonance is cavity-related rather than structural, and rope caulk won't help that. (Hint: the midrange horn can be removed through its front panel opening. There is a wide spot in the opening that allows the magnet to squirm through. But note carefully the polarity markings on wires and driver before disconnecting the wires, and replace them exactly the same way when reasssembling. Also, if you detach the driver from the horn, the diaphragm assembly can detach also, and must be treated with care and replaced precisely during reassembly.)

Finally, a few weeks ago I decided to reposition the Fortes a slight amount. I had been doing some listening from a position forward of the sofa to reduce back-wall reflection effects, and I had noticed that though the angle between me and the speakers was greater at this closer listening position, there was still a strong center image, no hole-in-the-middle effect. So I increased the distance between the speakers by about 2 feet, and then to reduce horn blare I toed them in a bit more, so that the right speaker is aimed just to the left of the sweet spot and vice versa with the left speaker. This broadened the sweet spot and did something really good to the imaging and articulation. Playing discs that I had heard dozens of times, I now heard lots of things I had never noticed before in complex mixes like Pat Metheney's Secret Story: voices speaking and singing in the background of instrumental passages for example. I was also able in some cases to hear (and even count!) individual, closely spaced violins playing in unison rather than simply hearing massed strings. It was uncanny how much the sound was improved.

Sorry for being long winded, but the point I am trying to make is: listen, analyze, tweak, learn. Your room and layout influence your sound in really profound ways. If you get it right, a variety of quality speakers and electronics will sound good in it. If you don't get it right, nothing will sound good. Specifically, I recommend that you try moving the speakers far enough apart to fire past the love seat (or raise them to fire over it). With the grilles removed, you should be able to see all of the drivers in their entirety from your listening position. Then aim them at or even past you ("cross-eyed"), and see what happens. Experiment with back tilting the speakers too. A few degrees can make a big difference because of horn directivity and "lobing" at crossover frequencies. Keep in mind that controlled-dispersion horns will sound great only in a fairly restricted area, whereas wide-dispersion speakers sound okay everywhere but great nowhere. Also, it is a sad fact that many mastering engineers try to juice up the sound of their recordings to sound livelier on the average dull speaker, and on a big-as-life speaker like the Forte they end up sounding harsh. For such recordings you need to have duller speakers or tweak the tone controls to compensate.

You've decided your Fortes sound good. Now make them sound AWESOME!

Cheers!

Don

[MarkBK]

A long time ago - Frank Van Alstine started using modeling clay (available at Toys 'R Us for $1/lb)to dampen various components - speakers, horns, drivers - even Grado cartridges - all of which was intended to offers subtle, but significant improvements to the reproduction of music. I can vouch for these mods working on several brands of speakers, including 4 pairs of Cornwall - from the late 70's to early 80's period.

The rope caulk is essentially the same idea although I have not tried it myself. The key is to apply a thin, even layer - it's quite easy - about 1/8 to 1/4 inch on the horns, 1/8" on the woofer frames - BE VERY CAREFUL NOT TO BLOCK any air vents on the back of any woofers (some do have vents - although I have not seen any on the Cornwalls)- the vent plays a significant role for the woofer. The idea is to dampen vibration resonance for each component to reduce the "smearing" effect on the sound. Having done one component, one cabinet at a time - I can attest to the effect of removing a "veiled" effect from the sound quality - imaging improves, etc. This is all assuming you do take the time to properly place your speakers and toe in etc.

Frank still offers modified Grado cartridges that must be heard to be appreciated. I run my Cornwalls with McIntosh C22 preamp and MC240 power amp and the sound with these spekaer mods is simply amazing. The most life like sound I have ever experienced - even compared to some current VERY high end gear - proof that the old man's ideas on physics for loudspeakers mated with state of the art tubes gear still holds it own after 40 plus years.

As a musician, I have a very sensitive ear to sound quality from being on both sides of the fence - listener and performer. If you hear something harsh with your sound do try some other electronics - even older Harmon Kardon SS, etc - with the dampened speakers it will amaze you. Well recorded music is stunning - poorly recorded music will faithfully be reproduced - and it seems all too often many great jazz performances were not well recorded. Enjoy those Klipschs!

[bobd]

Well, my friend offered mr 500 plus a Schwinn spinner in new condition for my Fortes. That did it. I'm more of a fitness nut than an audiophile so he got the Fortes. Part of my reason for letting them go was that the room just didn't accomadate them. It's rectagular room with the speakers at one end. The listening position is off center. So I got no imaging and at times you could really only hear one speaker. There just wasn't enough dispersion in those horns. I ended up buying a pair of Cambridge Soundworks M80s. Just an 8"bass driver, 3" mid and a 1" silk dome tweeter. Let me tell you, for my room, these sound SO much better. The only loss is some bass, but that can be easily fixed with a subwoofer. Also, you'll be happy to know the Fortes went to a friend that is buying them for a future HT setup. He also has Heresy's that he will be using fore the rear channels and I told him to look for an academy center. So they went to a good home.

[RJD]

I'm new to this forum but a long time Forte owner and lover of Klipsch speakers. I am going to try the HD rope-caulk on the horns as suggested. It seems like a cheap and relativly easy tweak for improving those harsh sounding horns. So glad I recently came across this site and have spent hours here already learning much about all things Klipsch and sound systems in general.

Fortes

Adcom GFA 555

BK Pro-5 Pre-Amp

Sony X111ES

Nakamichi CR-2A

Dual 505

Audioquest Interconnects

Monster cable

[T_Shomaker]

my Yamaha is really harsh with my heresys

[RJD]

[RJD]

I applied 1 1/2" ropecaulk 3/16" thick around both the midramge and tweeter horns on one of my fortes. After listening to each one separately I could immediately hear the difference; almost all the harshness and brightness (to my ears) was gone. A most welcome improvement after living with this "condition" sine 1988. They sound more balanced and fluid. Thanks for the efficient and inexpensive tweak!

[krustyoldsarge]

When I get bored, I browse through threads on this forum. It seems that harsh Yamaha's is a recurring theme.

Two words: old Marantz.

(I'm saying this so much that I'M becoming a recurring theme)

Let your ears be the judge!