HornEd Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Well, here goes another HornEd off topic historical foray... while I am a native San Franciscan and though all my grandparents were born in Europe, I did spend over thirty of my most productive years in Texas... and I, too, have a passion for history. And, oh yeah, I'd rather see a movie that gives me another perspective of history for two hours... rather than one whose claim to fame is exercising my considerable subwoofer array for a few minutes. First of all, check out the names of those "Texians" who lost their lives in the Alamo and you will find a larger number have Spanish surnames than you might expect... as you will find in many other skirmishes between Santa Anna's army and the local population of "Tejas" (my son's middle name is Tejano... and he was born, raised and lives in San Antonio) were a protest against unfair taxation, less than full right for "Texians" who immigrated from the U.S. and the requirement of embracing the Catholic religion when most "Texians" were Protestant. In the 1830's, Mexico City was the hub of Mexican government, and the farther you lived from Mexico City, the more taxes you paid and the less government services you got. Tejas was the furthest province that had grown from a population of 7,000 prior to Stephen F. Austin's efforts (sanctioned by the Mexican government) to recruit U.S. immigrants... to over 50,000 by 1835. Generally, the history of the time reflects that the local, historically Mexican, population sided with the Texians in the protest. Thus, the struggle was that of an over-taxed and under served province of Mexico with the Mexican government in Mexico City. At best, the Alamo incident was a travesty... a waste of men's lives on both sides for thirteen days... a fiasco that had little to do with establishing Texas independence other than supply a secondary war cry for a 20-minute battle at Buffalo Bayou (later San Jacinto) in which, surprisingly, only nine Texians lost their lives... and six hundred thirty weary troops from Mexico City (about half the Mexican force with Santa Anna) were slaughtered... most by Sam Houston's 830 ill trained but revenge thirsty Texians after the battle was over. Had Santa Anna, disguised as a Mexican private, not been captured making his way to thousands more of his troops garrisoned nearby... the Texan struggle for independence may well have been lost... and the second most populated state in the U.S. would be flying a Mexican flag... and the site of the Alamo would not be the eighth largest city in the U.S. Sam Houston was the designated leader of the Texian forces. Sam Houston ordered the "heroes" of the Alamo to join him in a retreat to East Texas where they might have a chance to defeat Santa Anna. Houston saw the old abandoned mission warehouse called the "Alamo" as an indefensible site that would only cause Santa Annas army to detour from pursuing Houstons main force and subject what was the Texians largest city to be raped and pillaged. Defending the Alamo was one of the biggest bonehead tactical blunders ever glorified and the defenders of the Alamo were not heroes they were irregular fighters who disobeyed their lawful commander (Houston) to do their own stupid self-serving thing. Houstons forces were an ill-disciplined lot on horseback a mobile fighting force that could easily outpace Santa Annas large number of foot soldiers and slow moving artillery. Neither the time taken by Santa Anna to crush the Alamo forces nor the Mexican soldiers lost in that skirmish had any decisive role in the lucky defeat and capture of Santa Annas advance party at Buffalo Bayou. The John Wayne version of the Alamo was a tragic parody and Remember Goliad was a far more motivating battle cry. Goliad was where Santa Anna executed 500 Texian Federalists (under Col. Fanin) who had surrendered after a battle and while they were on their way to join Houstons forces. Santa Annas order to kill defenseless Texian rebels imprisoned at Goliad rallied Federalist sympathy. Defending the Alamo meant creating a target that threatened Santa Annas supply lines from Mexico City and had to be eliminated even by modern tactical standards. The Federalists (including the Texians) were supporters of the Mexican Constitution of 1824 which granted more political autonomy to the Texian dominated Northern Territory of Mexico. Santa Anna, who gained the Mexican presidency a year or so earlier, headed the Centralist government that concentrated power in Mexico City marched on the Federalists to consolidate Centralist power over all of Mexico. So, just like the American Revolutionary War started out as a protest against taxation without representation and second-class English citizenship for colonials that grew into a war of independence the Texian Federalists (including those that fell in the Alamo) were fighting for political ideals that had been granted in the 1824 Mexican Constitution and changed by Santa Annas Centralist policies. If freedom were the true issue at the Alamo it is not likely that Texas would have been admitted as a slave state a decade or so after the fall of the Alamo. When I first settled in Texas in the mid-sixties the public toilet in front of the Alamo had separate (and not equal) facilities for white and colored Texas citizens. The white facilities were labeled in stone Men and Women while a crude, unpainted, wooden sign with an arrow and the term Colored scrawled upon it served second-class citizens at the Shrine of Texas Liberty. Make no mistake, there are many, many things that I like about Texas its land and its people and the equal opportunity companies I built there companies that did not make the distinction of gender or skin color as being automatically inferior employees. I not only watched, but was politically active in bringing equality into the functional realm of Texas heritage. And, by the way cowboys were looked upon as the dregs of society in their supposed heyday. It was lonely, tough and ill paying work work that was often taken by former slaves freed by the Civil War. Theres even a monument to the black cowboy who popularized the sport of bulldogging as I recall, his technique was to lean over and bite the bull on the lips. A bronze statue celebrating Bill Pickett, "The Dusky Demon" who invented bulldogging, is in the touristy Fort Worth Stockyards area. History is often the reflected bias of the winners and historical movies tend to take even more liberties to enhance the neo-classical box office bias that sells tickets and DVDs and maybe that is a good thing. For the real history was often steeped in brief blood baths on a background of hardship and boredom that would have a hard time passing for entertainment and, thus, the critical bomb of the latest Alamo may be just the incentive for me to buy the DVD. -HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted April 13, 2004 Author Share Posted April 13, 2004 Ed---Nice post. A minor bone or two though. Most of Houston's army at San Jacinto was infantry, not cavalry. And he had a pair of cannon. And the Mexican army in Texas was pretty fast moving, Santa Anna had energy if nothing else. His energy is what got him in trouble. Though on the afternoon of San Jacinto his energy was, ah.., misdirected. Know what I mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 ---------------- On 4/13/2004 10:14:11 AM TBrennan wrote: Ed---Nice post. A minor bone or two though. Most of Houston's army at San Jacinto was infantry, not cavalry. And he had a pair of cannon. And the Mexican army in Texas was pretty fast moving, Santa Anna had energy if nothing else. His energy is what got him in trouble. Though on the afternoon of San Jacinto his energy was, ah.., misdirected. Know what I mean? ---------------- Thanks, coming from you that is high praise indeed. And perhaps the "Yellow Rose" could be thought of as a "Miss" direction! Also, granted the issue of infantry at San Jacinto, but my point was intended to reflect tactics leading up to the battle in which Santa Anna's plodding route was along the seacoast... and Houston's irregulars could buy time by riding away from potential battles. Thus, the "buying time" argument for the Alamo defenders had little tactical effect... for which the local San Antonio area paid for in blood and lost provisions that were consumed by the Mexican troops. Actually, Santa Anna had an elite cavalry that had distinguished itself in battle many times. Houston's rag tag "army" hesitated in making the attack on Santa Anna's tired troops... and allowed 500 reinforcements to join Santa Anna... and the Texians lost their small numerical superiority. It is interesting to note that Houston's irregulars fed on captured provisions intended for Santa Anna. As a combat vet who survived behind enemy lines, I have up close and personal memories of the often senseless slaughter and waste that is war... and I know the patriotic zeal deep within that pushes gallantry beyond reason. As long as mankind is in to wars, it's too bad more of them cannot be as quick and decisive as that twenty minutes at San Jacinto... without the after battle excesses to get even for Goliad by killing more Mexican soldiers than the Mexican soldiers had killed Texians that had surrendered days earlier. Knowing that some of the technology in Cruise missiles fired on Iraq includes my innovations keeps the ravages of war all too near to me even now that I am retired. Although two-channel has had its share of flames... the cool restraint with which most Forum members engage in dialogue is indeed encouraging... especially in OT subjects. I am a confessed horn addict and enjoy this Forum for its horn aspects but a timely off topic historical jaunt with TBrennan is always refreshing. -HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleve Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 ---------------- On 4/12/2004 10:38:42 PM TBrennan wrote: Randy---Evidently the picture needed some exploding car crashes and the Alamo gates should have been huge hydraulic steel doors that closed with a hiss and a subwoofer rattling shudder. Davy Crockett should have been armed with a pair of Glock automatic pistols instead of his Kentucky rifle. Then he could have dove through the air shooting dozens of Mexicans as he did so. And the movie needed a scene of Travis outrunning a fiery explosion. Then the pelletheads might like it. ---------------- LOL! It sounds like you're describing that gawd-awful 'Van Helsing' movie that's opening this summer. I always pictured Van Helsing as the modest, formal-dressed intellectual, not some rugged, cookie-cutter handsome, two-fisted brawler/shooter. Oh and by the way, you do know some posters in the DVD forum judge films by their soundtracks, don't you? I posted some disparaging remarks about the upcoming "I Robot" and "the Day After Tomorrow" To which good old m00n remarked that the films probably have some serious multi-channel sound effects. lolol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted April 13, 2004 Author Share Posted April 13, 2004 Ed---Thanks for the kind words. I hold you in high regard. The Goliad thing is problematical; it doesn't quite fit into the Texan self-image. 400 Anglo worthies being led like sheep to a shambles by swarthy Mexicans doesn't have much of a heroic ring to it. So it seems ignored in American popular culture, Texan too I presume. Professor Hardin says that the site of the Coleto Creek fight was actually lost and was rediscovered by a local farmer who marked the site with a gin screw thrust into the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tubelover Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 This is a terrible movie. Billy Bob is the best thing about it . The other actors are far removed from his skills. Do not waste your time seeing this C- flick. The critics have this one dead to right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Taylor Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Tubeinhard (or what ever your name is) Did you even see this movie or are you just here stirring things up again, like you have done so many times before, read a bad reveiw of the movie and figured you would just jump in and say the movie is know good. It just figures you would say this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tubelover Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Yes Randy. Unfortunately, I did sit through this movie. I am sorry that I do not agree with your critique of the movie. To me it was worthless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Taylor Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Tubeinhard, I knew you were going to say that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tubelover Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 You did, did you? And how is that Randy? LMFAO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Tubinhard, Do you know what a sockpupet is? Answer: - It is when a Parrot masquerades as limp tube. No one has been fooled here except maybe you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tubelover Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Cut Throat, Coming from someone of your stature and prowess, I consider your post to be a compliment. Thank you very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Tubinhard, You'll have to make allowances for Cut-Throat's overactive paranoia. Bet you didn't know I am you, did you? LOL! Anyway, as a relative newbie, you may not understand that Cut-Throat is one of these guys who thinks a couple watts will shake the walls down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tubelover Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Yep, another one of those SET freaks heh? It should be a criminal offense to hook up a nice pair of Belle's to a 1 watt Welborne ground pounder. You know, I bet Ron Welborne enjoys a good laugh every time he gets an order. Suckers!!!!!!!! ---------------- On 4/13/2004 6:57:09 PM paulparrot wrote: Tubinhard, You'll have to make allowances for Cut-Throat's overactive paranoia. Bet you didn't know I am you, did you? LOL! Anyway, as a relative newbie, you may not understand that Cut-Throat is one of these guys who thinks a couple watts will shake the walls down.---------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 tubinhard, Talkin to yourself. - Familar territory - Just like masturbation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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