Yamaha review (long) and 3 pics...(dial up be warned)

[maxg]

OK - in order:

First off the Capacitor on my Tsakridis amp, as promised in another thread:

Big aint it. Runs the stereo for about 30 seconds after the power has been switched off!!

And now onto the Yamaha:

This is it installed on its own box in my living room:

Nothing to look at particularly - another blue light (where did this fashion come from? - my SACD player used to have one too). Note the non-standard size - wouldn't fit in my rack - real stupid that!!

And this is it from the back - admire my cabling if you will....

About as simple as can be really. You just got to make sure you set the switch on the back of the amp for unbalanced connection (default is balanced).

OK well that is enough of the pics - now the review (of sorts).

Before we get started please note the following:

1. Total listening time was about 2 hours and only at lowish volumes (usual reasons).

2. The speaker connectors won't take spades so I couldn't use my usual Van Den Hulls and had to use the Synergistic cables which are probably not the ideal match for this combo of speaker and amp.

3. The unit was dropped into my system as is - I made no changes to the setup (of the pre-amp for example) which may have had a dramatic effect on the performance.

And now the story:

Tony called me at around 5 pm and told me the unit had arrived. By the time I had gotten home, walked the dogs, chatted to the wife, eaten, played with the baby and done all the other myriad chores that make up my life it was 10 in the evening. Tony had already arrived so we had the unit setup and running within about 10 minutes.

We chose the following records for the test:

Elvis Presley Greatest Hits volume 2 on DECCA - track one - Fever.

Clearaudio Test Record - Track one - Jazz - cant remember the title.

Rossini - Barber of Seville highlights on Analgoue Audio.

Grief - Pier Gynt on Philips first movement.

These cover much of the gamut of music in terms of content and range, from quiet single voice to full orchestra. It is also a nice selection of vinyl quality from average and a bit beaten up (Philips) to good for a standard release (Elvis) to audiophile (the other 2).

Initial impressions and setup:

First off this unit is not nearly as small and light as I was expecting. It is a whole lot smaller than one would expect a 500 wpc amp to be, but it is no flyweight. The shape is odd and non-standard as I have said, so placement could be a problem. The unit exudes quality in build and the connectors on the rear for the speaker wires are really nice - gold with plastic covers - no chance of shorting on the units rear plate!

There is a power switch on the rear - which you would normally only use once - and the blue light is a switch into standby mode. The blue light is the only way you know it is on when not playing - there is no hiss whatsoever from the speakers.

At first we connected the ZTPRE and set the output level to low (this is 500 wpc after all - we need to be careful). Surprisingly this really didnt work well and we could hear very little below half volume on the pre, so we switch back to the normal high level output.

I must admit I was expecting to be blasted to the back wall even on the lowest setting on the volume pot - I wasnt. Volume levels at the first 2 clicks of the pot are indistinguishable from the Tsakiridis tube amp (to the naked ear - we didnt do any measurements).

So we sat and listened to the Elvis. Tony starts gushing from the off - I had to shut him up fast to concentrate. Musically there is less to distinguish this from the Tsakiridis than I was expecting although some of the emotion of the recording seems to have been stripped away. It is cleaner sonically, but at a price. I can hear every fault on the vinyl itself - and this record is in good condition relatively.

Bass is excellent. Voice too. Soundstage broad, deep and convincing but something is not right (other than the hiss and clicks) and I think it is a combination of my pre-amp and my source. I am suddenly aware of the lack of mass of my TT (its main weakness now - hidden beautifully by the Tube amps I normally use - but not here). The background just isnt black enough. To make matters worse - my horn loaded tweeter is suddenly showing the coloration many audiophiles associate with the design. Tony seems oblivious to this - for once he is listening to the music and I am listening to the system. The system is all I can hear.

On with the Clearaudio Jazz selection. Much better. It is obvious that there is so much detail and information on the record that the pre seems to have little or nothing to do. The music comes through with force and vigour. I could live with listening to this recording at least!

Pier Gynt. Disasterous. All the sweetness has gone. Further, the noise from the vinyl is almost unbearable - for the first time ever I might add. Percussive parts come in nicely - the image size is great and the soundstage is rock solid, but oh the horrors lurking in the vinyl. I can hear a fight going on between needle and groove and it wont settle. I cant get it off fast enough.

Rossini. Much better but still no banana. Baritone and bass voices are almost there but the Soprano is a mess. Instrumentation is good in parts - but what happened to the violins. Suddenly they are not made of wood, they are made of metal.

We turn everything off and pause to think.

I explain my observations to Tony. I think he is shocked at first but after a short while starts to agree with me. Whether that is because he actually agrees or whether it is down to my forceful nature is open to debate.

We disconnect his amp entirely and switch back to the tubes. Everything is right again - for both of us it seems. We lower the volume and start to come to our conclusions, which, after everything you have read above, are going to come as something of a surprise.

Before we get to those I should add Tony's observations on testing the amp with his B&W CDM1's at his house - before he came to me. In simple terms he has never heard the CDM1's perform better, and that with far worse front end gear than mine, and lousy cabling.

And here is the conclusion:

This is probably one of the best amps in the world at the moment, in the right setting. Tony has heard it during evaluation and prior to buying with the B&W 801's and with the Quad 989's. What my test proves is nothing more than the following:

1. The surrounding gear can be very wrong and things will not sound good.

2. The amp hides nothing. Therefore it needs either a very "high-end" front end or speakers that will provide the gloss (or both). Revealing speakers (such as horns) would be the most difficult to implement. That means Klipsch, Avantegard, Lowthers and the rest could sound absolutely dreadful, or, spending well in excess of $10,000 on your front end - stunningly good.

3. My pre-amp has its limits. This is the first time I have heard it sound poor and it is definitely the wrong unit for this amp (even with the options on board). What is correct is open to debate. A passive pre (input selector with volume control for the fussy) will only move the problem to the source, demanding even more of that. A top end tube unit would probably be right - but it will require a lot of investigating and play to find the right one. An SS pre might be good or even one of thos computerised units like the TAS (which I would really fancy to try out) but the sound could get brick hard and cold.

4. In the dizzying heights of the competition for this amp it is cheap. The local audio rag has reviewed it and given it the highest rating it has ever given any amp up to and including amps that cost $20,000 and more. The problem is that its demands are not so cheap. They may even be more than for the other amps compared to.

5. The most amazing thing on the amp is the control of the power. At the levels we were listening to it could easily have been a 30 watt amp. There is just no way to tell - until you touch that volume control and then all hell will break lose - even if your speakers are 84 dB/W/m.

6. Despite the ravings of the magazine I have concluded that vinyl is not the right source for this amp. This is not to say that it ever sounded digital - it didnt - it sounded as analogue as can be - but the noise from the vinyl itself comes through with a force that is fatiguing and bothersome. To me - this is the perfect amp for SACD (or possibly DVDa). The absence of surface noise coupled with the higher resolution over RBCD could be the step to nirvana, but, I think you would need to look at the Accuphase DP85 rather than at the Sony NS900 if you want to get anywhere.

The article in the magazine is entitled something to the effect of "analogue is dead". This may indeed be true for amplification (and source) in the future but it wont be this amp that does it. Variations on this amp. With downloadable personalities, maybe, but not this one.

I have begged Tony to get rid of the unit. It is going to be just too expensive to make it sound as good as it can, and as good as he wants it to. I dont think he will listen to me. He is being summoned by the great B&W 802 in the sky and cannot resist. Maybe it will work - maybe not - it sure is going to be an expensive experiment.

I'll end there - who made it through the whole thing?

[dubai2000]

Max,

very interesting read. I admit I am writing very spontaneously without much reflection (should I add as usual... ?), but I admit to being puzzled. You write that this amps made you realize the 'shortcomings' of some of your gear, still you both agreed that your own amp sounds better (in combination with your gear). So are you sure it's your stuff messing up things? I know I am biased, but hard, too metal sounding strings I certainly associate with ss gear (which I find is usually less prominent in non-horn-loaded speakers). On the other hand there is something to be said for synergy and your preamp might really not 'fit' to the Yamaha. Just out of curiosity, could you borrow another preamp to go with your tube amp? Would you register those vinyl shortcomings as well? I suppose what puzzles me is the fact that you hear more of these with another power amp. Now I do not underestimate the impact of those units, but to get a clearer picture you might try another preamp with both amps.

Now does that make any sense? While reading your review I felt the need to comment on certain things, but it gets more difficult while the actual writing takes place.

Anyway, let us know if you have another chance of listening to this amp and perhaps a different preamp.

Wolfram

[maxg]

Wolfram,

In many ways you have cut to the chase of the crux what I believe. And that, simply put, is Synergy. My system as it stands today is testimony to the Synergies I have stumbled upon (by luck as much as judgement).

That this amp does not do well in my system is not a reflection on the amp in and of itself, nor, in reality, is it a reflection of the limitations of my system. It merely confirms that, as with all things audio, you need to surround it with complimentary items to get the best out of it.

I will not be doing further testing for my own use on this amp, but, for Tony, we are at the start of a long journey and doubtless I will be involved.

As we find the right items I will report back. It will make an interesting counterpoint to the more typical systems reported on this forum. I am 98% certain it will not involve Horns, tubes I am less sure about.

In the end will it sound as good as mine does today? Who knows? This is the reason I begged Tony to sell it. Better or worse it will certainly cost multiples more.

[dubai2000]

Max,

well, there is nothing like satisfaction with one's own audio setup. Any addition becomes a kind of luxury which, if not working properly, does not diminish the level of satisfaction one has alreday achieved.

I am certainly interested to read more about Tony's attempts with this amp...even if it does not involve horn speakers....which I think is a grave mistake .

Wolfram

BTW: When I had the chance to listen to another horn speaker (which I didn't take to too much) it still made me curious about trying the Cobreflex horn, so do you plan trying a different preamp just to see if some improvemet might not be possible?... I am just curious, not implying that there is something wrong with your unit.

[maxg]

Its interesting how things change isnt it. Yesterday, before testing, I was convinced the pre-amp was just about the strongest item in my system outside of my beloved Shelter 901, now I am not so sure.

Whatever its strengths or weaknesses as an individual unit, however, in my system, with my amps, it does the business in a way beyond reproach to any listener that has taken the time to hear it, to date.

Interestingly, I am hoping to have Odyseus come over to my house on Saturday at some time to listen to my system. I am more than a little curious as to how he sees (hears?) my implementation against others of his amps he has heard.

I think he will like it - but I have been wrong before....

Either way - this is my system for my ears and, my ears like...a lot!!!

[Parrot]

Excellent observations, Max.

I found it interesting that Tony was thrilled with the Yamaha, while you had grave reservations, even though you were both hearing it at the same time, and how quickly your influence made Tony rethink his impressions and capitulate.

Also interesting how your much loved vinyl became unbearable to you, just with one component change. Quite a lot of implication there for why some people like vinyl and others don't.

[ben.]

Nice review, Max. Look at this in a positive way. Maybe it will cure the itch to mess with your system!

What's intriguing about these digital amps is the possibility to stay digital longer in the signal chain. Pair some good hi-res digital source with a digital preamp (do they make such a thing yet?) or, better yet, the nice looking audio server Dave Mallett was working on (what happened to him?), and things get pretty interesting.

Makes me want to look for some "Digital Ready" speakers. Where's that white van?

[maxg]

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On 4/29/2004 9:07:50 AM paulparrot wrote:

Excellent observations, Max.

I found it interesting that Tony was thrilled with the Yamaha, while you had grave reservations, even though you were both hearing it at the same time, and how quickly your influence made Tony rethink his impressions and capitulate.

Also interesting how your much loved vinyl became unbearable to you, just with one component change. Quite a lot of implication there for why some people like vinyl and others don't.

----------------

Paul,

If my report makes Tony sound like some kind of ninny - heavily influenced by me then I can assure you he is not. I think it was merely that he was listening to the music and lost in it without pausing to evaluate what we were hearing overly.

To be fair to him, whilst he did understand what I was saying he felt I was being rather hard on the system in my critism.

It is fully possible I was. I was disappointed at the performance of the Pre especially as I had expected it to do better along with the sudden awareness of the weakness of the TT in this company. I had hoped I had worked enough to disguise its humble origins better - I have with my amps - but I had not understood fully, or appreciated fully, the contribution they were making.

As for the preferences for or against vinyl - it is up to each individual to make up their mind on their system - I dont think anyone has claimed otherwise.

You should also not that what I am saying here with regard to vinyl is diametrically opposed to what the reviewer in the magazine said. the only differance being that I am right

[leok]

I think that mating a 500W amp with horn speakers is an almost impossible situation for the amp. The horn speakers will operate in powers of tens of milliwatts. Whether or not one listens there or at a few Watts with 10 or 20 Watt peaks, the lower power stuff is still very audible, and the amp is most likely a distortion disaster at such low powers. I doubt the amp is revealing at all. I think the speakers are revealing the distortion of the amp. Magnaplaners may be a great match with the Yahama, however.

Digital (pwm) amps have a noise floor that is proportional to the amp's max power, unless some very tricky things are done to scale the power supply (and thus the true instantaneous amp power capability) to match the power actually being used. The noise is likely to accompany program material (much like pcm quantization noise), so you won't hear it as hiss, but it will make the sound harsh.

Leo

[maxg]

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On 4/29/2004 12:06:27 PM leok wrote:

I think that mating a 500W amp with horn speakers is an almost impossible situation for the amp. The horn speakers will operate in powers of tens of milliwatts. Whether or not one listens there or at a few Watts with 10 or 20 Watt peaks, the lower power stuff is still very audible, and the amp is most likely a distortion disaster at such low powers. I doubt the amp is revealing at all. I think the speakers are revealing the distortion of the amp. Magnaplaners may be a great match with the Yahama, however.

Digital (pwm) amps have a noise floor that is proportional to the amp's max power, unless some very tricky things are done to scale the power supply (and thus the true instantaneous amp power capability) to match the power actually being used. The noise is likely to accompany program material (much like pcm quantization noise), so you won't hear it as hiss, but it will make the sound harsh.

Leo

----------------

Interesting thought Leo. I wonder if it is the case here - they go to great pains to explain their all new technology in this amp and how it doesnt suffer from all the usual ailments you describe. Of course bear in mind that my speakers are not Klipsch and are nothing like as sensitive. I would guess a figure of around 90 dB/w/m but like I say that is a guess - somewhere between 88 and 92 should cover it though.

The funny thing is that Tony listened to the B&W 801's (which are around the same snesitivity figure) at apparently low volumes and did not observe the same thing we did with my setup.

On the subject of Tony I am pleased to say he read the review and agreed with everything I said except on one thing and I quote:

"I did not gush!"

Its true - I exaggerated his reaction.

[maxg]

----------------

On 4/29/2004 12:06:27 PM leok wrote:

I think that mating a 500W amp with horn speakers is an almost impossible situation for the amp. The horn speakers will operate in powers of tens of milliwatts. Whether or not one listens there or at a few Watts with 10 or 20 Watt peaks, the lower power stuff is still very audible, and the amp is most likely a distortion disaster at such low powers. I doubt the amp is revealing at all. I think the speakers are revealing the distortion of the amp. Magnaplaners may be a great match with the Yahama, however.

Digital (pwm) amps have a noise floor that is proportional to the amp's max power, unless some very tricky things are done to scale the power supply (and thus the true instantaneous amp power capability) to match the power actually being used. The noise is likely to accompany program material (much like pcm quantization noise), so you won't hear it as hiss, but it will make the sound harsh.

Leo

----------------

Interesting thought Leo. I wonder if it is the case here - they go to great pains to explain their all new technology in this amp and how it doesnt suffer from all the usual ailments you describe. Of course bear in mind that my speakers are not Klipsch and are nothing like as sensitive. I would guess a figure of around 90 dB/w/m but like I say that is a guess - somewhere between 88 and 92 should cover it though.

The funny thing is that Tony listened to the B&W 801's (which are around the same snesitivity figure) at apparently low volumes and did not observe the same thing we did with my setup.

On the subject of Tony I am pleased to say he read the review and agreed with everything I said except on one thing and I quote:

"I did not gush!"

Its true - I exaggerated his reaction.

BTW - Where is Mdeneen? I was expecting a response from him - he had expressed passing interest in this digital thing...

[leok]

maxg,

Well, that does change things a bit. A 90dB speaker is 1/16 as loud as speakers I'm used to so for what I use 3.5 watts for would require 56 Watts, and that's for chamber music. Still, this amp is almost 10x more powerful than that.

I am obviously not a fan of powerful amps, for reasons I mentioned. What is the Yamaha model? .. I didn't see that in your review. I would expect a 500W pwm amp to sound smoother than a class A/B 500W amp. I would be interested in what Yamaha has to say about it.

Tnanks,

Leo

[maxg]

Leok,

The Yamaha model is the MX-D1 - their all new - radical new design digital amp. It has received rave reviews over here.

I think it is on the front of the Yamaha UK site - www.yamaha.co.uk (but that is from memory).

I seem to be climbing ever higher in amp power - this is something I need to get a grip on!!

[leok]

"Dynamic Range 120dB" WOW. I usually figure an amp is good for 70 or 80dB.

I don't know. However, I've become very sceptical of ss amps and their specs. The distortion on this one could still be terrible at low power and they just don't include that in the "Dynamic Range" calculation.

I don't think the amp is pwm, probably just ss A/B. The power supply is pwm, which means it's regulated. Maybe the sound of the regulation is getting into the output?

Leo

[IndyKlipschFan]

Hey Max..

Can we get a better description and perhaps a pic of the statue to the right and perhaps an explanation?

From my view looks interesting!!

[maxg]

The Statue!!!

I hadnt even noticed it was in the picture - tee hee!!!

We went on Safari to Kenya about 5 years ago (with an unplanned stop over in Ethiopia that one day I will describe) and picked this up at one of those genuine wordworking shops that are not there to skin the tourists honest governor would I lie to you - this is your lucky day - it just so happens we have this rare....

SWMBO and I are suckers for good salesmanship so we bought this genuine all ebony and red paint statue(!) Well ebony is a bit of a stretch - the black is wearing a bit thin in places, (the red paint is real) - but it is rather nicely made - from a single piece of wood, by hand. We got done in terms of the fact we could have haggled much lower but not in terms of our planning to own this the rest of our lives - as long as it doesnt have some weird african woodworm that is..

One story - as requested - true too.