John Warren Posted July 10, 2001 Share Posted July 10, 2001 so which team came to the market first with the "zany" copper tinted driver cones; JBL-Walmart or Klipsch- BestBuy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J M O N Posted July 11, 2001 Share Posted July 11, 2001 Actually, I think it may have been that Brittish company, Monitor Audio... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted July 11, 2001 Share Posted July 11, 2001 JBL has succeeded in making theirs look truely cheezy.I wonder if the copper turns green over time? You know, that sea-foam really bilious green color? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted July 11, 2001 Author Share Posted July 11, 2001 where do these "ideas" come from? cardboard enclosures and "glow in the dark woofers" can't be too far behind when they start messing with the color of the cone it's "resume time" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted July 12, 2001 Share Posted July 12, 2001 Ahhh...... You are bringing back memories of the AFS Cricket speakers.Fiberboard boxes and chartreuse woofers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted July 12, 2001 Share Posted July 12, 2001 John W, Nothing personal, but it seems to me you never have anything positive to say about klipsch. So...what's your interest in this BB? I admit that I sometimes tend to gush about K, but geez, do you even like klipsch speakers? Don't you own la scalas, or am I mistaken? Again, nothing personal. Enquiring minds... As for the copper "color", well isn't that what copper anodizing looks like? It's not like it's fake copper or something. Gold is gold, silver is silver and copper...well, you know. ------------------ JDMcCall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oosting Posted July 12, 2001 Share Posted July 12, 2001 JDMcCall, Gush? Please! Where's my big wooden spoon when I need to gag myself?! No, the copper color is a DYE, not real copper! Don't be deceived by the color. It is not functional in any way. The cones are Aluminium that is annodized and then dyed to look pretty (oh baby!). BTW, from my experience with Aluminium annodizing, a thin film of Aluminium Oxide does not make the cone any more rigid. I don't know how they come up with their claims. Show me the data! The cone is annodized and dyed for cosmetic purposes only. Otherwise, you would get that nasty white corrosion as the cone ages. I'm with John. I love what Klipsch did in the past but I'm not impressed in any way with the new stuff. They don't sound any better than my "other" speakers. Ed This message has been edited by oosting on 07-12-2001 at 10:04 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted July 12, 2001 Author Share Posted July 12, 2001 when the LLC actually does something "positive" then I'll have something positive to say. the Klipschorn is dead, long live the Klipschorn!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Reed Posted July 12, 2001 Share Posted July 12, 2001 Keeping the Heritage line is a big "positive". I'd call the soon-to-be-released Jubilee a "positive". How about this BB? They keep it going when they really don't have to. It's all in how you look at it. Enjoy the music, Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted July 12, 2001 Author Share Posted July 12, 2001 jfiophSdbjif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oosting Posted July 12, 2001 Share Posted July 12, 2001 BTW, My "other" speakers are 1985 Realistic Mach II's. 95 dB@1m1w 160 w continuous 25-50,000 response Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc1091 Posted July 12, 2001 Share Posted July 12, 2001 I agree, the copper color looks terribly cheesy. I would Prefer a chartruse color! To me, it looks like they are doing a really bad B&W imitation by coloring the speaker. On the other hand, I really don't have a lot of complaints about the sound eminating from this speaker. Speaking of cyclic fatigue, you should look at the description of a few instances I have seen in stores. Find that description under "Cerametallic cones". I think I confused the Copper colored "cerametalic" cones with the copper colored Aluminum ones. Oops.. Oh well, just as cheesy looking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Blorry Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 If you think the copper cones are cheesy, have you looked at the baskets that hold everything together? I haven't looked inside the newest RFs, but my K dealer was "proudly" displaying a raw Reference grade woofer, and I almost choked when I saw the speaker basket was plastic. PWK must be saying "This is not my beautiful speaker! This is not my beautiful company! My God! What have I done!" This message has been edited by Mr. Blorry on 07-13-2001 at 12:20 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Adams Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 >PWK must be saying "This is not my beautiful speaker! This is not my beautiful company! My God! What have I done!"<Text Uhhhhh....."Into the pool again, after the monies gone" Tom Adams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Blorry Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 Stupid me, I should have checked the "Specifications" section of the website before I wrote my last post. In there, it clearly states the Reference woofer frames as being "cast polymer." Only the massive ten inch woofer of the RF-7 has an aluminum frame. Sounds to me K may be heading in the same direction as Bose... Same as it ever was? This message has been edited by Mr. Blorry on 07-13-2001 at 12:47 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lindee Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 I really don't see the problem with cast polymer for basket material, Klipsch isn't the only company using it, Audax comes to mind. They make some very well regarded drivers (Aerogel line) that use a cast polymer basket. Another advantage it has is it's about as non-resonant a material as you're likely to find. Don't mean get this thread off on a tangent, just my two cents Eric ------------------ You take Visa? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J M O N Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 Polymer means plastic. Believe it or not, when it comes to woofer baskets, plastic (er... Polymer) is actually BETTER than metal. Metal baskets resonate much, much more than plastic does. This really is an improvement! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted July 13, 2001 Author Share Posted July 13, 2001 The baskets' goal in life it to retain alignment of the motor components relative to the voice coil. To do so the basket material must have a suitable elastic modulus and offset yield strength. Polymerics, especially the ones that lend themselves to injection molding (thermoplastics)have elastic modulii MUCH lower than 6000 series aluminum (100 to 1000X lower)!! To offset this, the polymeric "matrix" is filled with ceramics (fibers, powders) which possess high modulii and very high strength. So what's the down side?? 1) the matrix is always a significant volume fraction of the mix so it dominates the long term stability of the composite (creep relaxation over time, a.k.a "sag") 2) the cheaper polymerics experience huge changes in thier elastic modulii over very small temperature changes. On a cool day it's a "stiffy" on a hot summer day is a "limpy" and then voice coil rub, 3) the really good structural polymerics (PEEK for example) are ALOT more expensive than aluminum, so you KNOW that the LLC ain't going to use that! 4) they are not good in shock load and tend to crack. The reason for this is simple, polymer chains are like a bowl of spaghetti--when you apply a load they need time to slip and slide around to accomodate strain (that's why you get "sag" over time) BUT when you apply a load rapidly they don't have the time to slide around so they just snap! The bottom line is that composites are engineered materials and like everything else good and bad ones exist. Structural polymerics that have high elastic modulii, high glass transition temperatures and high strength are expensive. Having said all that>> The question you need to ask is 10 years from now will my woofers have voice coil rub or no, what about 20 years from now. If they do rub, will the LLC be around to bail you out?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Blorry Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 So, John, with the variant nature of these polymer compounds, why would a speaker company choose to purchase components made of these materials for their enclosures? Especially a company that built its reputation on fabricating some of the finest speakers ever made? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted July 13, 2001 Author Share Posted July 13, 2001 Engineering is a compromise. You never get something for nothing. It comes down to how risk is partitioned between the company and the customer. If the LLC did their homework, you will be listening to these speakers for 10-20 years with no problems. If not, who looses? Look at it this way, when my L100 and L200 foam grilles turned into mud, JBL offered to sell me cloth grille insert replacements at $155 and $279 per pr. respectively (1989 dollars). If the LLC wants to try different materials thats ok. That's what engineering is all about. But when they pull stunts like the "Copper" thing on the cones it makes you wonder about the credibilty of the engineering as a whole. This message has been edited by John Warren on 07-13-2001 at 07:45 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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